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XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod
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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:04 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

John,
Bill and Sue's work is truly commendable and worthy of our praise. My 2 cents worth are:
With the tank being contained within the same space, all your points of concern I believe are somewhat a dampener, a bit pedantic,
and academic, but pertinent to UK builders I suppose. I am only too glad that I dont build in the UK where the absence of an Experimental category denies common sense addressing of genuine problems. You guys really need to lobby for an experimental category! If the replacement of a flexible brittle tank prone to causing quite a few of our builders distress, luckily sofar only on the ground, in the same position relative to CoG and attachment wise, causes you distress, move your project downunder, or over the pond is my suggestion. Leave the bureaucracy behind and we'll happily accept you Wink

Tony R
Across the pond from our Kiwi mates.

P.S. By way of an example, the stresses at points of attachment, the module, is capable of supporting the ultimate fail safe load far in excess
of our 4G limit. 15 kg of additional fuel supported on the back of that same bulkhead is academic in my opinion. Its even a bridged load, shared with the roof of the pitch pushrod tunnel aft of the rear footwells, as I call them.
Quote:
On 23 Mar 2014, at 19:17, "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net> wrote:



Great job on the tank. It looks excellent and gives a useful increase in volume.

How do you intend to prove it complies with the requirements? I note the pictures show a test rig, possibly for functional tests? The tank will need to be pressure tested, easily achieved using a long tube and a calculated head of liquid (please use water for the test and remember to recalculate for the higher density).

The larger volume will need the basic static strength calculations to be revisited. Hhigher inertia loads and different CG location will alter the loads being carried by the forward structure.

What is the weight of the bare tank?

I dont know where your project is based, for builders in the UK this would definitely be classified as a modification.

Regards
JW

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Fred Klein



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

On Mar 23, 2014, at 2:04 AM, Tony Renshaw <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com (tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
all your points of concern I believe are somewhat a dampener, a bit pedantic,


well said Tony…F.

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John Wighton



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

Sorry to be seen as a spoil sport. The intention was to highlight a very real problem- mods and improvements that are excellently executed but may not maintain a level of safety in relation to the original design. The main point, in this instance, is that a pressure test is a no-brainer (how else do you know it will maintain its contents under all flight conditions?).

Yes in the UK we do have a formal system of approving modifications. Yes it would be great to have the Experimental system (as per US). That system allows for great innovation and enables developers to get their aircraft flying without much of the cost that has to be incurred in the UK (and other countries which follow our system, of which there are many). What is does not do is allow people to do what they want. Basic testing and calculations can not be circumnavigated with risk of a failure. Failures kill people.

Suggesting that a test may be required for a fuel tank may seem like a dampener to you. To me, as an aeronautical engineer, it is a mandatory action. Whats more it costs nothing to do it. As l say a no-brainer.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:25 pm    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

Thanks John,

Just to put your mind at rest, yes all of the issues you highlighted
were considered and I am confident that the change to an aluminium tank
eliminating all of the issues that are experienced with the plastic tank
is a major improvement.

Loads and CofG were calculated and tank pressure tested.

The experimental system as we have in New Zealand has proven that it
does not compromise safety. We have an excellent record, one that is
improving all of the time.
The freedom it gives in being able to design and build virtually
whatever you like can only be the envy of those countries that do not
have it.

Regards
Sue and Bill Sisley
On 25/03/2014 9:19 a.m., John Wighton wrote:
Quote:


Sorry to be seen as a spoil sport. The intention was to highlight a very real problem- mods and improvements that are excellently executed but may not maintain a level of safety in relation to the original design. The main point, in this instance, is that a pressure test is a no-brainer (how else do you know it will maintain its contents under all flight conditions?).

Yes in the UK we do have a formal system of approving modifications. Yes it would be great to have the Experimental system (as per US). That system allows for great innovation and enables developers to get their aircraft flying without much of the cost that has to be incurred in the UK (and other countries which follow our system, of which there are many). What is does not do is allow people to do what they want. Basic testing and calculations can not be circumnavigated with risk of a failure. Failures kill people.

Suggesting that a test may be required for a fuel tank may seem like a dampener to you. To me, as an aeronautical engineer, it is a mandatory action. Whats more it costs nothing to do it. As l say a no-brainer.

--------
John Wighton
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:37 am    Post subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

John,

Perhaps I am being a bit old today, but why should you need a pressure test on a container that is free to ambient pressure?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

Please use extreme caution.
Light Aircraft fuel tanks do not get pressurized more than a few inches of water pressure as they are vented.  The tank must be filled and load tested to a minimum of a/c limit times 1.5.  It must hold shape when tested.


Regards
Bud


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



tennant <barrington.tennant(at)gmail.com> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "tennant" <barrington.tennant(at)gmail.com>

John,

Perhaps I am being a bit old today, but why should you need a pressure test on a container that is free to ambient pressure?

--------
Barry Tennant
D-EHBT
At EDLM  -  Germany




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:31 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

I am surprised to hear that the stock tank keeps it's shape under 6g's of load.  Was this test actually done when the kit was originally tested and approved in Britain?

Cheers,

Pete
A239

On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote] Please use extreme caution.
Light Aircraft fuel tanks do not get pressurized more than a few inches of water pressure as they are vented.  The tank must be filled and load tested to a minimum of a/c limit times 1.5.  It must hold shape when tested.


Regards
Bud


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID



tennant <barrington.tennant(at)gmail.com (barrington.tennant(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "tennant" <barrington.tennant(at)gmail.com (barrington.tennant(at)gmail.com)>

John,

Perhaps I am being a bit old today, but why should you need a pressure test on a container that is free to ambient pressure?

--------
Barry Tennant
D-EHBT
At EDLM  -  Germany




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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:09 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Pete,
The tank support holders on the front are a part of that testing. The original tank bulged pretty well. The new tank is stiffer, but you've heard my rant on tank support.
Bud
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:25 pm    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

Just to play devil's advocate, whats the attraction of an aluminum
fuel tank over a plastic one, or a fiberglass one?

I am familiar with the problems with Europa's plastic tank, but that
does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading off one problem for
another.

On that thought, can a tank be 3D printed?


On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 1:08 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
[quote] Pete,
The tank support holders on the front are a part of that testing. The
original tank bulged pretty well. The new tank is stiffer, but you've heard
my rant on tank support.
Bud

---


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:24 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

I think that given a free choice, a plastic tank is the right way to go.
Nearly all cars now use this material as is doesn't corrode, it's
dimensionally stable, durable and crash tolerant.

The problem with the Europa tank is that it was made from the wrong
material and (unbeknown to the factory at the time) absorbed fuel and
distorted. Also unexpected was the strength with which epoxy resin
bonded to the tank. If built according to instructions, the tank could
move, but some enthusiastic builders piled on the laminations that
created stress risers which, after the passage of time, caused the
plastic to fracture.
Since we have no (cost effective) way to re-manufacture the tank out of
a suitable plastic, the only options are to replace it with "more of the
same" - meaning that in another ten years it could fail again, or revert
to the material of choice for aircraft designers over the years -
alumin(i)um.
This may not be the optimum material (as other posters have outlined),
but it is the next best option for home-builders wanting to create a
"one-off" that is light weight and (if mounted correctly) fatigue resistant.

Fibreglass (chopped-strand-mat/polyester resin) is a non-starter as it
hardens over life and becomes extremely brittle. This was banned for use
on motorcycles in the UK over forty years ago as any accident almost
inevitably resulted in a fireball.

One avenue that does not seem to have been explored is the use of
flexible "fuel bladders" as used in the car racing world.

Nigel

On 27/03/2014 00:24, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
Quote:


Just to play devil's advocate, whats the attraction of an aluminum
fuel tank over a plastic one, or a fiberglass one?

I am familiar with the problems with Europa's plastic tank, but that
does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading off one problem for
another.

On that thought, can a tank be 3D printed?




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John Wighton



Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 239

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

The use of flexible bladder tanks is a great idea. However, as they take up a shape which is driven by internal fuel pressure (due to aircraft manoeuver loads, sloshing, etc) to react these loads effectively into the surrounding structure another vessel or holder is required. If cleverly designed this bladder holder can be a lightweight geodetic structure with hard points at appropriate locations (for a replacement Europa tank these would be the original mounting points). This means some of the benefits get eroded (bladder weight + support structure weight) but it makes it a whole lot easier to remove and replace/service.

I have designed/stressed such a system for a Part 23 twin aircraft as an STC.

For interest the VLA fuel tank requirements are in the regs as follows:
http://www.easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/certification-specifications/CS-VLA/CS-VLA%20%20Amdt%201%20combined.pdf

CS-VLA 963 Fuel tanks: general
(a) Each fuel tank must be able to
withstand, without failure, the vibration, inertia,
fluid, and structural loads that it may be
subjected to in operation.
(b) Each flexible fuel tank liner must be of
an acceptable kind.
(c) Each integral fuel tank must have
adequate facilities for interior inspection and
repair.
CS-VLA 965 Fuel tank tests
Each fuel tank must be able to withstand the
following pressures without failure or leakage:
(a) For each conventional metal tank and
non-metallic tank with walls not supported by
the aeroplane structure, a pressure of 24 kPa.
(b) For each integral tank, the pressure
developed during the maximum limit
acceleration of the aeroplane with a full tank,
with simultaneous application of the critical limit
structural loads.
(c) For each non-metallic tank with walls
supported by the aeroplane structure and
constructed in an acceptable manner using
acceptable basic tank material, and with actual or
simulated support conditions, a pressure of 14
kPa, for the first tank of a specific design. The
supporting structure must be designed for the
critical loads occurring in the flight or landing
strength conditions combined with the fuel
pressure loads resulting from the corresponding
accelerations.

regards
John


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:26 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

Nigel
early in the Europa story someome built a tank using vinyl ester resin, double skinned with a foam
(acylic?) core. May have been more than one, it was offered as a mod I think.
Mike Costin who came from the racing car world built an aluminium tank.
Graham


From: "nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2014, 8:23
Subject: Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod


--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)>

I think that given a free choice, a plastic tank is the right way to go. Nearly all cars now use this material as is doesn't corrode, it's dimensionally stable, durable and crash tolerant.

The problem with the Europa tank is that it was made from the wrong material and (unbeknown to the factory at the time) absorbed fuel and distorted. Also unexpected was the strength with which epoxy resin bonded to the tank. If built according to instructions, the tank could move, but some enthusiastic builders piled on the laminations that created stress risers which, after the passage of time, caused the plastic to fracture.
Since we have no (cost effective) way to re-manufacture the tank out of a suitable plastic, the only options are to replace it with "more of the same" - meaning that in another ten years it could fail again, or revert to the material of choice for aircraft designers over the years - alumin(i)um.
This may not be the optimum material (as other posters have outlined), but it is the next best option for home-builders wanting to create a "one-off" that is light weight and (if mounted correctly) fatigue resistant.

Fibreglass (chopped-strand-mat/polyester resin) is a non-starter as it hardens over life and becomes extremely brittle. This was banned for use on motorcycles in the UK over forty years ago as any accident almost inevitably resulted in a fireball.

One avenue that does not seem to have been explored is the use of flexible "fuel bladders" as used in the car racing world.

Nigel

On 27/03/2014 00:24, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com (asarangan(at)gmail.com)>

Just to play devil's advocate, whats the attraction of an aluminum
fuel tank over a plastic one, or a fiberglass one?

I am familiar with the problems with Europa's plastic tank, but that
does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading off one problem for
another.

On that thought, can a tank be 3D printed?
&gmany List utilities such as List -> http://forums.matronics.comhttp://ww=======================




[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:39 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

This may be a stupid question - but given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a large original batch.

Anyone know?

Pete

On 27/03/14 09:22, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:

[quote] Nigel
early in the Europa story someome built a tank using vinyl ester resin, double skinned with a foam
(acylic?) core. May have been more than one, it was offered as a mod I think.
Mike Costin who came from the racing car world built an aluminium tank.
Graham




From: "nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk" (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2014, 8:23
Subject: Re: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod


--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)" <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk)>

I think that given a free choice, a plastic tank is the right way to go. Nearly all cars now use this material as is doesn't corrode, it's dimensionally stable, durable and crash tolerant.

The problem with the Europa tank is that it was made from the wrong material and (unbeknown to the factory at the time) absorbed fuel and distorted. Also unexpected was the strength with which epoxy resin bonded to the tank. If built according to instructions, the tank could move, but some enthusiastic builders piled on the laminations that created stress risers which, after the passage of time, caused the plastic to fracture.
Since we have no (cost effective) way to re-manufacture the tank out of a suitable plastic, the only options are to replace it with "more of the same" - meaning that in another ten years it could fail again, or revert to the material of choice for aircraft designers over the years - alumin(i)um.
This may not be the optimum material (as other posters have outlined), but it is the next best option for home-builders wanting to create a "one-off" that is light weight and (if mounted correctly) fatigue resistant.

Fibreglass (chopped-strand-mat/polyester resin) is a non-starter as it hardens over life and becomes extremely brittle. This was banned for use on motorcycles in the UK over forty years ago as any accident almost inevitably resulted in a fireball.

One avenue that does not seem to have been explored is the use of flexible "fuel bladders" as used in the car racing world.

Nigel

On 27/03/2014 00:24, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com (asarangan(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Just to play devil's advocate, whats the attraction of an aluminum
> fuel tank over a plastic one, or a fiberglass one?
>
> I am familiar with the problems with Europa's plastic tank, but that
> does not mean aluminum is better. You are trading off one problem for
> another.
>
> On that thought, can a tank be 3D printed?
&gmany List utilities such as List -> http://forums.matronics.comhttp://ww=======================









Quote:

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Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:45 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:
Quote:
given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a large original batch.Anyone know?


I certainly do not “know”, but it has been my understanding that at some point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density material…can anyone can confirm that?
Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc.
Fred

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:10 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

...and whether they have been post-florinated/treated beyond the factory's treatment Smile
I thought the only change the factory made was to start florinating in the late 90's.  I can only imagine that the original non-florinated tanks must have swollen up like balloons.

cheers,
Pete
A239

On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
[quote]
On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:

Quote:
given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a large original batch. Anyone know?


I certainly do not &ldquo;know&rdquo;, but it has been my understanding that at some point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density material&hellip;can anyone can confirm that?


Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc.


Fred

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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 780

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

Hi Group

Curiosity question about plastic fuel tank for Europa:

** Has anyone had a problem with the long range fuel tank swelling or leaking?
** Do you leave the tank empty between uses?

Thx.
Ron Parigoris


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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

Ron, mine ,(kit 402 dating from around 1999) has swelled a
bit as viewed through the spar tunnel, to almost touch but
not interfere with the aileron linkage bar. No leaks. Has
had roughly equal quantities of Avgas & Mogas + UL 91 for
the last 2 yrs Never emptied between times. Never found
any water in it. i.e. No problems.
Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ
On Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:23:20 -0700
"rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
Quote:

<rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

Hi Group

Curiosity question about plastic fuel tank for Europa:

** Has anyone had a problem with the long range fuel
tank swelling or leaking?
** Do you leave the tank empty between uses?

Thx.
Ron Parigoris




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asarangan(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

I fluorinated my crica 2000 tank and its been filled with mogas for
nearly 3 months and I don't see any sign of swelling. However, its
been cold this winter, and my theory is that these tanks absorb fuel
when hot which can happen during hot summer months. Most of the tank
failures I have heard of have come from warmer climates.

On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:
Quote:
...and whether they have been post-florinated/treated beyond the factory's
treatment Smile

I thought the only change the factory made was to start florinating in the
late 90's. I can only imagine that the original non-florinated tanks must
have swollen up like balloons.

cheers,
Pete
A239
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info> wrote:
>
> given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made
> of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same
> 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something
> different. It may be that Europa are still working their way through a
> large original batch.
>
> Anyone know?
> I certainly do not "know", but it has been my understanding that at some
> point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density
> material...can anyone can confirm that?
>
> Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the
> kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have
> failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem
> pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc.
>
> Fred
>
>
> arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>




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Remi Guerner



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:23 am    Post subject: Re: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

** Has anyone had a problem with the long range fuel tank swelling or leaking?
** Do you leave the tank empty between uses?

Ron,
This is a good question as the long range fuel tank for the monowheel is obviously made of the same material as the main tank. But one difference is that the long range tank is not glued to any structure. My long range tank was purchased in 2008. I use it only 3 or 4 times a year and store it empty in between. No apparent swelling or cracks or leaks up to now. BTW it contains 38 liters compared to the advertised 35 liter capacity, so may be there is som e sort of swelling?
Remi
F-PGKL


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nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:43 am    Post subject: XS Fuel Tank Kiwi Mod Reply with quote

Fred et al,

Back in 2010, Ian Rickard produced this excellent drawing (attached) of the Europa tank. This indicates that the material is medium density polyethylene, flourine treated (the process that makes epoxy stick so well to it). Ian has indicated when and where various changes were made over time.

Nigel



On 27/03/2014 15:43, Fred Klein wrote:

Quote:

On Mar 27, 2014, at 3:38 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:
Quote:
given that the original Europa supplied tanks were known to have been made of the 'wrong material' are Europa continuing to make tanks from the same 'wrong material' or are the newly supplied tanks made of something different.  It may be that Europa are still working their way through a large original batch. Anyone know?


I certainly do not “know”, but it has been my understanding that at some point Europa changed from the original lo-density material to a hi-density material…can anyone can confirm that?


Apropos to this thread, it would seem to be of value if we could track the kit numbers and the accumulated flight times of those tanks which have failed, as well as any other aspects of the failures which may seem pertinent such as ambient temperatures, long-term storage while empty, etc.


Fred



Quote:



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