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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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 Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:11 am Post subject: 582 static rpm |
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Hey Dave Fischer are you still out there? What should static rpm on a 582 with a 72" Warp Drive prop be? Would appreciate any other info on that set up also.
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Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]
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mikeperkins
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 7:13 am Post subject: Re: 582 static rpm |
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Hi Pat,
Jared and I talked the other day offline. I mentioned my 532 static RPM was about 5800. But what I was shooting for was a Vx climb of 6600 RPM. When I finally got that, my static speed was 5800 RPM. But when I had a new crankshaft installed, along with the necessary seals and re-timed, I was getting only 4200 or so. The certified rebuilder's recommendation was to reduce the pitch because I had a "new" engine. I thought he was crazy because I was already convinced he'd screwed something up. But in fact by taking some pitch off the prop, I got back to about 6000 static. I'm also getting 6800 RPM on a Vx climb instead of 6600. So I probably need to add back in about 1/4 degree to get back 6600 again. But my overall performance numbers are close to what they were before the rebuild, so I'm not worried that I lost horsepower when it was rebuilt. Rather, the torque/RPM curve probably just moved somewhat.
The one thing I've used as a rule is to not run my engine at high power until the coolant temp stabilizes. I don't exceed 3000 RPM until it does. The cylinder bores on the Rotax 2-strokes are round but the pistons are cam-ground, eccentric by about .010". That compensates for the cylinders' uneven expansion when everything heats up to operating temp. But at lower temperatures, the piston/cylinder clearances are not correct, and that often leads to scored pistons, which eventually leads to cold seizures. Following that rule has been pretty good for my engine; the pistons and cylinders are still looking good after 385 hours. I get the feeling that the big oil debate comes down to something else - full warm-ups prior to full power, getting the prop load matched to the engine, and watching the EGTs. (What I mean by matching the prop load to the engine is to get max RPM at max throttle in a Vx or Vy climb, your choice.)
It's still possible in my airplane to exceed the 1200 degree EGT limit. I find that if I'm in a cruise descent with low power, say 30 percent, my EGTs soar. When I see that, I pull up to load the engine again and add a little power. Nothing brings the EGTs down quicker than that. It screws up my descent profile, but it helps the engine.
The max RPM for a 582 is listed as 6800 (for 5 minutes), whereas my 532 is 6600. So your numbers will be different than mine. But I think the principles are the same.
Good seeing you here again, Pat. Hope things are well with you.
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Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop |
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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: 582 static rpm |
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Mike, Thanks for the quick reply and info. I took the Kitfox out today with 12 1/2 decrees of pitch on the Warp Drive prop. Same setting as yesterday with 5500rpm static (plane tied down). All I could get on a full throttle take off taxi was 4800rpm. Needless to say I didn't takeoff. I'm frustrated now with these different results 2 days in a row with identical prop setting. Plugs look good with rear plugs slightly blacker than front cyl. Guess I'll do a compression check next. I think it has to be carb related problem.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuilt
Rockford, IL
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 10:13 AM, mikeperkins <flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "mikeperkins" <flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)>
Hi Pat,
Jared and I talked the other day offline. I mentioned my 532 static RPM was about 5800. But what I was shooting for was a Vx climb of 6600 RPM. When I finally got that, my static speed was 5800 RPM. But when I had a new crankshaft installed, along with the necessary seals and re-timed, I was getting only 4200 or so. The certified rebuilder's recommendation was to reduce the pitch because I had a "new" engine. I thought he was crazy because I was already convinced he'd screwed something up. But in fact by taking some pitch off the prop, I got back to about 6000 static. I'm also getting 6800 RPM on a Vx climb instead of 6600. So I probably need to add back in about 1/4 degree to get back 6600 again. But my overall performance numbers are close to what they were before the rebuild, so I'm not worried that I lost horsepower when it was rebuilt. Rather, the torque/RPM curve probably just moved somewhat.
The one thing I've used as a rule is to not run my engine at high power until the coolant temp stabilizes. I don't exceed 3000 RPM until it does. The cylinder bores on the Rotax 2-strokes are round but the pistons are cam-ground, eccentric by about .010". That compensates for the cylinders' uneven expansion when everything heats up to operating temp. But at lower temperatures, the piston/cylinder clearances are not correct, and that often leads to scored pistons, which eventually leads to cold seizures. Following that rule has been pretty good for my engine; the pistons and cylinders are still looking good after 385 hours. I get the feeling that the big oil debate comes down to something else - full warm-ups prior to full power, getting the prop load matched to the engine, and watching the EGTs. (What I mean by matching the prop load to the engine is to get max RPM at max throttle in a Vx or Vy climb, your choice.)
It's still possible in my airplane to exceed the 1200 degree EGT limit. I find that if I'm in a cruise descent with low power, say 30 percent, my EGTs soar. When I see that, I pull up to load the engine again and add a little power. Nothing brings the EGTs down quicker than that. It screws up my descent profile, but it helps the engine.
The max RPM for a 582 is listed as 6800 (for 5 minutes), whereas my 532 is 6600. So your numbers will be different than mine. But I think the principles are the same.
Good seeing you here again, Pat. Hope things are well with you.
--------
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423969#423969
===========
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
===========
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k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:02 pm Post subject: 582 static rpm |
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I had a weird thing happen on the old 582 a while ago. I thought my peak RPM was a little high so I added a little pitch, probably 1/2 degree or so. (Long time past.) My static RPM was about the same, but when I hammered it on the runway, the initial RPM was high, but then the prop seemed to "hook-up", the RPM dropped to about 4500 and I couldn't get going. I had to abort the takeoff. I tried a few times and got the same result. (I'd say the prop hooked up at 10-20 knots ground speed.) I went back, pulled out the increased pitch, and everything was fine. My unofficial guess what that the prop was partially stalled static, then un-stalled when I got rolling. I thought that spectacularly unlikely, but could think of no other reason. Oh yes: Warp Drive tapered.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
On 5/29/2014 1:25 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
[quote] Mike, Thanks for the quick reply and info. I took the Kitfox out today with 12 1/2 decrees of pitch on the Warp Drive prop. Same setting as yesterday with 5500rpm static (plane tied down). All I could get on a full throttle take off taxi was 4800rpm. Needless to say I didn't takeoff. I'm frustrated now with these different results 2 days in a row with identical prop setting. Plugs look good with rear plugs slightly blacker than front cyl. Guess I'll do a compression check next. I think it has to be carb related problem.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuilt
Rockford, IL
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 10:13 AM, mikeperkins <flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "mikeperkins" <flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)>
Hi Pat,
Jared and I talked the other day offline. I mentioned my 532 static RPM was about 5800. But what I was shooting for was a Vx climb of 6600 RPM. When I finally got that, my static speed was 5800 RPM. But when I had a new crankshaft installed, along with the necessary seals and re-timed, I was getting only 4200 or so. The certified rebuilder's recommendation was to reduce the pitch because I had a "new" engine. I thought he was crazy because I was already convinced he'd screwed something up. But in fact by taking some pitch off the prop, I got back to about 6000 static. I'm also getting 6800 RPM on a Vx climb instead of 6600. So I probably need to add back in about 1/4 degree to get back 6600 again. But my overall performance numbers are close to what they were before the rebuild, so I'm not worried that I lost horsepower when it was rebuilt. Rather, the torque/RPM curve probably just moved somewhat.
The one thing I've used as a rule is to not run my engine at high power until the coolant temp stabilizes. I don't exceed 3000 RPM until it does. The cylinder bores on the Rotax 2-strokes are round but the pistons are cam-ground, eccentric by about .010". That compensates for the cylinders' uneven expansion when everything heats up to operating temp. But at lower temperatures, the piston/cylinder clearances are not correct, and that often leads to scored pistons, which eventually leads to cold seizures. Following that rule has been pretty good for my engine; the pistons and cylinders are still looking good after 385 hours. I get the feeling that the big oil debate comes down to something else - full warm-ups prior to full power, getting the prop load matched to the engine, and watching the EGTs. (What I mean by matching the prop load to the engine is to get max RPM at max throttle in a Vx or Vy climb, your choice.)
It's still possible in my airplane to exceed the 1200 degree EGT limit. I find that if I'm in a cruise descent with low power, say 30 percent, my EGTs soar. When I see that, I pull up to load the engine again and add a little power. Nothing brings the EGTs down quicker than that. It screws up my descent profile, but it helps the engine.
The max RPM for a 582 is listed as 6800 (for 5 minutes), whereas my 532 is 6600. So your numbers will be different than mine. But I think the principles are the same.
Good seeing you here again, Pat. Hope things are well with you.
--------
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423969#423969
===========
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
===========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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mikeperkins
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: 582 static rpm |
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Hi Pat,
I got all kinds of different static RPM when my prop was pitched too coarse and the engine was too heavily loaded. In fact, it would run at 5600 for a bit and then drop to 4200 and sound like a sick cow mooing.
I learned that the engine will run at all kinds of different speeds when the prop loading is wrong. There's an old Rotax bulletin that covers prop loading that actually describes what you're seeing and what I was seeing before. You can find it here: http://www.ultralightnews.ca/rotax503/rotax2strokepdf/3UL89.pdf
It's sort of written in German engineering gibberish, but the basic idea is that when the engine has no surplus torque (too heavily loaded), the speed becomes unstable and it will run at different RPM at different times. I'd back off about 1.5 degrees of pitch and see what happens.
Give me a call at 217-725-0628 anytime.
Mike
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop |
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mikeperkins
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: 582 static rpm |
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Hi Guy,
The symptom you described is very much like the problem I was having when my prop was pitched to coarsely. My guess is that when you put on that extra 1/2 degree, the required prop torque exceeded the engine's available torque.
I just posted here to Pat, and you might find that post useful, too. Call anytime.
I'm an engineer, and I've stared at the graph in the 3 UL 89-E Rotax bulletin for an hour and still have trouble with it. But the key for me was understanding that when the prop torque is higher than the engine's available torque, the RPM goes screwy.
Mike
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop |
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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:51 pm Post subject: 582 static rpm |
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Mike, Thanks I'll tackle it tomorrow.
Pat
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 4:27 PM, mikeperkins <flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "mikeperkins" <flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)>
Hi Guy,
The symptom you described is very much like the problem I was having when my prop was pitched to coarsely. My guess is that when you put on that extra 1/2 degree, the required prop torque exceeded the engine's available torque.
I just posted here to Pat, and you might find that post useful, too. Call anytime.
I'm an engineer, and I've stared at the graph in the 3 UL 89-E Rotax bulletin for an hour and still have trouble with it. But the key for me was understanding that when the prop torque is higher than the engine's available torque, the RPM goes screwy.
Mike
--------
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423990#423990
===========
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
===========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 1:57 pm Post subject: 582 static rpm |
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Guy, Thanks for the info. I'm going to do a compression check. If that is OK, I guess I'll reduce pitch before I tear into anything else. I'm famous for starting with the most complicated thing first. Pitch will be the easiest this time. The engine sure seems to run fine at the lower rpms.
Pat Reilly
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Guy Buchanan <gebuchanan(at)cox.net (gebuchanan(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | I had a weird thing happen on the old 582 a while ago. I thought my peak RPM was a little high so I added a little pitch, probably 1/2 degree or so. (Long time past.) My static RPM was about the same, but when I hammered it on the runway, the initial RPM was high, but then the prop seemed to "hook-up", the RPM dropped to about 4500 and I couldn't get going. I had to abort the takeoff. I tried a few times and got the same result. (I'd say the prop hooked up at 10-20 knots ground speed.) I went back, pulled out the increased pitch, and everything was fine. My unofficial guess what that the prop was partially stalled static, then un-stalled when I got rolling. I thought that spectacularly unlikely, but could think of no other reason. Oh yes: Warp Drive tapered.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
Now a glider pilot, too.
On 5/29/2014 1:25 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
| Quote: | Mike, Thanks for the quick reply and info. I took the Kitfox out today with 12 1/2 decrees of pitch on the Warp Drive prop. Same setting as yesterday with 5500rpm static (plane tied down). All I could get on a full throttle take off taxi was 4800rpm. Needless to say I didn't takeoff. I'm frustrated now with these different results 2 days in a row with identical prop setting. Plugs look good with rear plugs slightly blacker than front cyl. Guess I'll do a compression check next. I think it has to be carb related problem.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuilt
Rockford, IL
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 10:13 AM, mikeperkins <flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "mikeperkins" <flybyewire(at)gmail.com (flybyewire(at)gmail.com)>
Hi Pat,
Jared and I talked the other day offline. I mentioned my 532 static RPM was about 5800. But what I was shooting for was a Vx climb of 6600 RPM. When I finally got that, my static speed was 5800 RPM. But when I had a new crankshaft installed, along with the necessary seals and re-timed, I was getting only 4200 or so. The certified rebuilder's recommendation was to reduce the pitch because I had a "new" engine. I thought he was crazy because I was already convinced he'd screwed something up. But in fact by taking some pitch off the prop, I got back to about 6000 static. I'm also getting 6800 RPM on a Vx climb instead of 6600. So I probably need to add back in about 1/4 degree to get back 6600 again. But my overall performance numbers are close to what they were before the rebuild, so I'm not worried that I lost horsepower when it was rebuilt. Rather, the torque/RPM curve probably just moved somewhat.
The one thing I've used as a rule is to not run my engine at high power until the coolant temp stabilizes. I don't exceed 3000 RPM until it does. The cylinder bores on the Rotax 2-strokes are round but the pistons are cam-ground, eccentric by about .010". That compensates for the cylinders' uneven expansion when everything heats up to operating temp. But at lower temperatures, the piston/cylinder clearances are not correct, and that often leads to scored pistons, which eventually leads to cold seizures. Following that rule has been pretty good for my engine; the pistons and cylinders are still looking good after 385 hours. I get the feeling that the big oil debate comes down to something else - full warm-ups prior to full power, getting the prop load matched to the engine, and watching the EGTs. (What I mean by matching the prop load to the engine is to get max RPM at max throttle in a Vx or Vy climb, your choice.)
It's still possible in my airplane to exceed the 1200 degree EGT limit. I find that if I'm in a cruise descent with low power, say 30 percent, my EGTs soar. When I see that, I pull up to load the engine again and add a little power. Nothing brings the EGTs down quicker than that. It screws up my descent profile, but it helps the engine.
The max RPM for a 582 is listed as 6800 (for 5 minutes), whereas my 532 is 6600. So your numbers will be different than mine. But I think the principles are the same.
Good seeing you here again, Pat. Hope things are well with you.
--------
Mike Perkins
Havana, Illinois
Model I, 532, B gearbox, GSC prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=423969#423969
===========
st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
===========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:29 am Post subject: 582 static rpm |
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Set your RPM for 6000 to 6200 static. on large props like 72" possibly up to 6400
with stock pipe - this is a few HP loss due to shorter length - not a big deal on a kitfox.
(at) 5500 static is too low RPM you about 80% max power so about 50 to 55 HP
Cheers
---
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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: 582 static rpm |
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Dave, Thanks for info. Great to hear from you. Wish this site was what it
was 5 years ago. I'd still be trying to build my plane without some of the
previous posters.
Pat Reilly
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 4:28 AM, Dave <dave(at)cfisher.com> wrote:
[quote] Set your RPM for 6000 to 6200 static. on large props like 72" possibly
up to 6400
with stock pipe - this is a few HP loss due to shorter length - not a big
deal on a kitfox.
(at) 5500 static is too low RPM you about 80% max power so about 50 to 55 HP
Cheers
---
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