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VG's

 
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kinnepix(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:37 am    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

With all the talk about VG's I haven't heard anything about how
they're to be lined up fore-and-aft. Any specs on this? If they're
straight into the wind I don't believe they'll do diddley. Look at a
commercial jet's wings -- esp. the 727. The VG's are twisted about
10-15 degrees. They are after all meant to create turbulence right at
the boundary layer -- how can they do this if they're edge-onto the
apparent wind?
Glaciers -- thanx John for a GREAT pic of some marvellous country!
Glaciers are soooo cool, esp. with a gravel strip at their foot. We
did a lot of glacier flying on the Icefield Ranges in the Yukon years
ago, in Helio Couriers, marvellous aircraft. Before I got there
they'd lost an engine, then changed it out UP ON THE GLACIER! Flew
in the new engine, three long 4x4's, a chain hoist, and went at it.
Engine was a 540 as I recall. Not your typical maintenance --
Only real txp problem I ever had was flying over Portland ME jetport
years ago at 3500', photographing the coast. Didn't talk to tower or
ATC . Later talked to Brunswick NAS (to go thru their airspace), and
they asked me to call PTL. When I did they said my txp readout was
1300'!! -- which must have startled them a little. I pointed out that
while the radar room has no windows, the tower sure does, and they
could so easily have looked out the window and seen I was NOT at
1300', but at 3500'. Vis was excellent that day. Anyway, I
apologized but pointed out that I was flying perfectly legally, and
have a nice day. That was the end of it. But no doubt my N-number had
a flag on it (another??) from then on.
Fly safe, have fun,
Russ K


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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

At 09:35 AM 1/16/06 -0600, you wrote:
Quote:


With all the talk about VG's I haven't heard anything about how
they're to be lined up fore-and-aft. Any specs on this? If they're
straight into the wind I don't believe they'll do diddley. Look at a
commercial jet's wings -- esp. the 727. The VG's are twisted about
10-15 degrees. They are after all meant to create turbulence right at
the boundary layer -- how can they do this if they're edge-onto the
apparent wind?

Russ,

I developed my VG's from an old EAA Sport Aviation article. They said 15
degrees and that is what I used. As I recall, they gave a height
measurement (3/8 of an inch) but no other measurements, but they did include
a photo in the article. It showed a single vane VG and an old fashion lead
pencil with the eraser end next to the VG. By scanning in the photo and
re-sizing the photo and comparing pencil eraser lengths, I was able
determine the VG length. I used a trapezoidal shape the VG vane pairs
because they will not work the fabric as hard as single vane a VG.

All I can say is that they seem to work very well. One could make them
taller and wider, but doing so would increase VG weight and drag. If you
want to maintain the same top and/or cruise speed, it is important to
minimize VG drag. It must be less or equal to the drag reduction that occurs
by flying the wing at a lower angle of attack due to the wings increase in
lift capability for a given air speed.

Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN


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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:40 am    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

Russ K are you in Maine ?

Ellery in Maine
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Possum



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

At 10:35 AM 1/16/2006, you wrote:
Quote:


With all the talk about VG's I haven't heard anything about how
they're to be lined up fore-and-aft. Any specs on this? If they're
straight into the wind I don't believe they'll do diddley. Look at a
commercial jet's wings -- esp. the 727. The VG's are twisted about
10-15 degrees. They are after all meant to create turbulence right at
the boundary layer -- how can they do this if they're edge-onto the
apparent wind?

Quote:
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
From: russ kinne <kinnepix(at)earthlink.net>


With all the talk about VG's I haven't heard anything about how
they're to be lined up fore-and-aft. Any specs on this? If they're
straight into the wind I don't believe they'll do diddley. Look at a
commercial jet's wings -- esp. the 727. The VG's are twisted about
10-15 degrees. They are after all meant to create turbulence right at
the boundary layer -- how can they do this if they're edge-onto the
apparent wind?

This is from http://www.landshorter.com/index.html
Q: How do I know where to put them on my wing and tail?

A: Our eight page manual and complete set of computer generated
templates give you the information you need to install and test your
Landshorter! vortex generators. Most likely you will end up placing
them around the 10% chord line for your wing and spacing them at
about 50 per wing (close to 1% of span). If you decide to use them
on the underside of your horizontal stabilizer to improve your flare
then you will place them about 1 1/2" apart and just in front of the
elevator. In all cases the VG's are placed at a precise angle to the
airstream and are aligned and spaced with the included templates.
What they look like on a Kolbish Aircraft
http://sos.photosite.com/Album1/


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JetPilot



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: VG's Reply with quote

kinnepix(at)earthlink.net wrote:

Glaciers are soooo cool


Hahahah, I dont think you will find any disagreement there Laughing


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Mark



Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: VG's Reply with quote

I installed a set of VGs on my Twinstar.......WHAT A DIFFERENCE!! Plane now stalls 38 power on,down from 45. Aileron control is more solid,used to have a dead spot in the middle a foot wide(or so it seemed).
I tried these without expecting a lot,and got great results. I dont know how other Kolbs fly without them. That flat bottomed,sharp LE wing has some bad points too....the VGs seem to fix them...


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:10 pm    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

Aileron control is more solid,used to have a dead spot in the middle a
foot wide(or so it seemed).

I dont know how other Kolbs fly without them.

That flat bottomed,sharp LE wing has some bad points too....the VGs
seem to fix them...
|
| Mark Shimei
Hi Mark:

Please tell us about the dead spot in your ailerons and how the VG's
improved this seemingly dangerous problem.

Somehow there are a lot more Kolbs flying without VG's than with them.
I don't know how we fly without them. Wink

Would also be very nice to know what these bad point of the Kolb wing
are, and how the VG's fixed them. To state that a wing has bad points
does not help us understand the problem.

john h
MKIII


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hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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Richard Pike



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

Other Kolbs fly pretty good without them. Better than most any thing
else in it's class. But nothing made by man is perfect, and improvement
is always possible. VG's fall into that category.

Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Mark wrote:

Quote:


I installed a set of VGs on my Twinstar.......WHAT A DIFFERENCE!! Plane now stalls 38 power on,down from 45. Aileron control is more solid,used to have a dead spot in the middle a foot wide(or so it seemed).
I tried these without expecting a lot,and got great results. I dont know how other Kolbs fly without them. That flat bottomed,sharp LE wing has some bad points too....the VGs seem to fix them...

--------
Mark Shimei
Twinstar, 503
Phantom, Kawasaki 440
Weight shift Quick, Chrysler


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Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
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kinnepix(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

Right on, bro! glaciers are cool, but comfortable. I worked at -63
once. THAT was more than cool.
(Shivering)
do not archive (do we still need this??)
On Jan 16, 2006, at 7:22 PM, JetPilot wrote:

Quote:

kinnepix(at)earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Glaciers are soooo cool
>
Hahahah, I dont think you will find any disagreement there
[Laughing]

--------
NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!


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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4529#4529


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:08 pm    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

| Other Kolbs fly pretty good without them. Better than most any
thing
| else in it's class. But nothing made by man is perfect, and
improvement
| is always possible. VG's fall into that category.
|
| Richard Pike

Richard:

Would be very interesting to do a side by side comparison, two of same
model Kolb aircraft, rather than individual tests that present results
to the List based on their inprecise methods of testing.

I would be more than happy to participate in such a test, as the Kolb
without VG's. Even side by side would not be precise, but would seem
to me much better than what we have now. Based on what I have read
and seen on the List and the internet, I don't think I'll run right
out and start sticking VG's on Miss P'fer. I guess I have seen Kolbs
fly with them, but have not paid that much particular attention at the
time. Wasn't any noticeable difference in performance between with
and without. However, if I could get up close to a MKIII that had
them, compare take off, cruise, slow flight, short landings, etc.,
then I would be better prepared to make a semi-educated decision about
VG's.

If me and Miss P'fer are put to shame, I'll run right out, get a
bucket full of VG's and start sticking.

Take care,

john h
Naked MKIII


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MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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Denny Rowe



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:49 pm    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

John,
Seeing how the take off and landing performance of Miss Pfer is already
beyond the stock Mk-3 due to your gear mods, a side by side comparison with
most any other Mk-3 with VGs would be worthless.
Why don't you just make a bucket full of em out of Lexan and stick em on
with double sided tape (outside the prop arc of course) and let us know your
results.
I don't have them either but if Possums and brother Pike say they work, I
tend to beleive them.
Again, I am not endorsing their use nor do I plan on installing them but
their benifits on all types of planes seem to be fact, not fiction and you
yourself are well known to want the most out of your bird. After all your
mods, it seems like temporarily sticking a few VGs on your wings would be
childs play.

Denny Rowe

---


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JetPilot



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: VG's Reply with quote

[quote="John Hauck]
However, if I could get up close to a MKIII that had
them, compare take off, cruise, slow flight, short landings, etc.,
then I would be better prepared to make a semi-educated decision about
VG's.

[/quote]

Hi John

It wont be to long before my MK III is finished with VG's on it. It will be very similar to yours, 912's, Classic Flaps, Slightly heavy... Im sure we will meet up at a fly in one day and you will be welcome to try it and see if you like them.

Michael A. Bigelow


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:10 pm    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

|
<rowedl(at)highstream.net>
| Seeing how the take off and landing performance of Miss Pfer is
already
| beyond the stock Mk-3 due to your gear mods, a side by side
comparison with
| most any other Mk-3 with VGs would be worthless.

Got stock wings, tail, and an 11 lb tail wheel. Wink Not going to fly
any sooner than stock. Don't see how the main gear are going to give
it a lower stall speed/approach speed.

| Why don't you just make a bucket full of em out of Lexan and stick
em on
| with double sided tape (outside the prop arc of course) and let us
know your
| results.

Don't have time right now.

| I don't have them either but if Possums and brother Pike say they
work, I
| tend to beleive them.

I also believe them, but would be nice to be there and fly with them
to compare the difference in real time rather than cyber time on the
internet.

After all your
| mods, it seems like temporarily sticking a few VGs on your wings
would be
| childs play.

Seems that way, but it ain't. What mods are you talking about? I
haven't changed any flight characteristic of a MKIII from what was
called for in the 1991 edition of the plans. I don't mess with
Homer's flight characteristics and never have.

Shucks, I thought a good fly off comparison would be a good way to get
a good idea of what I am missing.

john h
Looking for a little comparison.


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MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:25 pm    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

| It wont be to long before my MK III is finished with VG's on it.
Im sure we will meet up at a flyin one day and you will be welcome to
try it and see if you like them.
|
| Michael A. Bigelow

Thanks Mike:

One of these days I'll get to make a comparison. Guess I am going to
have to be patient.

john h
MKIII


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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:14 am    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

Ellery
I'm in CT, not ME -- but not by choice. ME is a great state. I run
boats up & down coast (boatrelocate.com), used to fly, mostly
coastal, like to troutfish (anywhere), hike (do), haven't yet run
Allagash but would like to. Whjere are you?
fair winds,
Russ
do not archive

On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:40 AM, ElleryWeld(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:


Russ K are you in Maine ?

Ellery in Maine
do not archive





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Denny Rowe



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Leechburg, PA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:27 am    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

---

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:39 am    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

Hey Russ, I'm about 60+ miles from Ellery And I can tell you , "yoy can't
get Theya from heya"

Vic
MK3X
Smellinocket,Me

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

CT thats where my wife is from
I have been on the Alligash Water Way many times it is a great place I am In
a small town called Levant 11 miles West of" KBGR" Bangor International
Airport

Ellery
do not archive


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:28 am    Post subject: VG's Reply with quote

Hi,
the only way that John is going to be convinced of the efficacy of VG`s is
to fit some to his own bird and try it. Kit built planes vary quite a bit
in performance depending on the builder and flying one against the other
would be a pretty useless exercise.

The only way is to fly a single plane, establish a datum, fit the VG`s and
fly it and measure again.

Cheers

Pat

do not archive

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