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Glueing canopies
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jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:52 am    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Yes thank you Mickey, well done. Questions, did you just run the one bead of
Sika from the top of the frame as shown? You don't feel you need to run
another from the bottom side of the frame? Also if you do it the way you
suggest, many small tack type applications first, then after drying come
back and lay up the full bead. Is that the time you would pull the hose type
spacers, after tacking and before full bead application? Many thanks again.

Jim Bowen
RV-8 QB

Quote:
From: Gerry Filby <gerf(at)gerf.com>
Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Glueing canopies
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:50:18 -0800


Many thanks Mickey - this looks like a very doable process and
the results look great !

I'm building a 9 - any thoughts on wether the larger dimensions
of my canopy might present additional problems ?

g

>
>
>
> Here is a link to my experiences:
>
> http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20050614184749626
>
> There are 6 articles in total on the canopy.
>
> Mickey
>
> > Has anyone documented any part of the glue approach on their
> > website ... would love to get a sense of your experiences,
> > pitfalls, pros and cons ...
>

--
__g__

==========================================================
Gerry Filby gerf(at)gerf.com
Tel: 415 203 9177





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jabowenjr(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Hi. They offer Sika 295 in black or white. At least that's what I believe I
read off the Jamestown websight.

Jim Bowen
[quote]From: Dale Ellis <rv8builder(at)earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Glueing canopies
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:34:18 -0500 (GMT-05:00)



It is my understanding that the white material is a caulking material and
does not have adhesive qualities. I would check with vendor and/or
manufacturer to be sure.

Dale
Building a RV-8 in SC

--


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Hi Jim,

I did run the one bead from the top, but if I were to do it
again, I would only run one from the bottom, none on the top.
Of course, it is possible it would not look "cool" with only
the bead on the bottom, and then I would have to run a
cosmetic bead from the top. Not sure. In any case,
my bead on the top is about 2x the size it needs to be.

You've got it exactly right on the tack beads. Tack, let set,
remove the hose spacers, and then run the full bead.
That is how I will do it on my next RV, unless I hear
from one of you guys that comes up with a better way!

Best regards,
Mickey
JAMES BOWEN wrote:
Quote:


Yes thank you Mickey, well done. Questions, did you just run the one bead of
Sika from the top of the frame as shown? You don't feel you need to run
another from the bottom side of the frame? Also if you do it the way you
suggest, many small tack type applications first, then after drying come
back and lay up the full bead. Is that the time you would pull the hose type
spacers, after tacking and before full bead application? Many thanks again.

Jim Bowen
RV-8 QB




>From: Gerry Filby <gerf(at)gerf.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Glueing canopies
>Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:50:18 -0800
>
>
>Many thanks Mickey - this looks like a very doable process and
>the results look great !
>
>I'm building a 9 - any thoughts on wether the larger dimensions
>of my canopy might present additional problems ?
>
>g
>>
>>
>>Here is a link to my experiences:
>>
>> http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20050614184749626
>>
>>There are 6 articles in total on the canopy.
>>
>>Mickey
>>
>>
>>>Has anyone documented any part of the glue approach on their
>>>website ... would love to get a sense of your experiences,
>>>pitfalls, pros and cons ...
>>
>--
>__g__
>
>==========================================================
>Gerry Filby gerf(at)gerf.com
> Tel: 415 203 9177
>

--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing


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Mickey Coggins
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Jerry Grimmonpre'



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Nice log and photos on your site Mickey.
To those who have worked with both ProSeal and Silka what are the property
differences after curing? Is one tougher than the other, more rubbery, more
aggressive tackiness from one or the other? Do you think ProSeal would
glue the canopy well enough to take the place of Silka? How about UV rays
on ProSeal ... does ProSeal have good weathering characteristics? Could
ProSeal be the filler of choice on the rail bottom after tacking with a
small amount of Silka? Does ProSeal flow better than Silka at the same
temperatures. A lot of questions from one who didn't seal his own tanks.
Thanks for your answers,
Regards...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV8A

Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: Glueing canopies
Quote:


Hi Jim,

I did run the one bead from the top, but if I were to do it
again, I would only run one from the bottom, none on the top.
Of course, it is possible it would not look "cool" with only
the bead on the bottom, and then I would have to run a
cosmetic bead from the top. Not sure. In any case,
my bead on the top is about 2x the size it needs to be.

You've got it exactly right on the tack beads. Tack, let set,
remove the hose spacers, and then run the full bead.
That is how I will do it on my next RV, unless I hear
from one of you guys that comes up with a better way!

Best regards,
Mickey
JAMES BOWEN wrote:
>
>
> Yes thank you Mickey, well done. Questions, did you just run the one bead
> of
> Sika from the top of the frame as shown? You don't feel you need to run
> another from the bottom side of the frame? Also if you do it the way you
> suggest, many small tack type applications first, then after drying come
> back and lay up the full bead. Is that the time you would pull the hose
> type
> spacers, after tacking and before full bead application? Many thanks
> again.
>
> Jim Bowen
> RV-8 QB
>
>
>>From: Gerry Filby <gerf(at)gerf.com>
>>Reply-To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>>To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Glueing canopies
>>Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:50:18 -0800
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Many thanks Mickey - this looks like a very doable process and
>>the results look great !
>>
>>I'm building a 9 - any thoughts on wether the larger dimensions
>>of my canopy might present additional problems ?
>>
>>g
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Here is a link to my experiences:
>>>
>>> http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20050614184749626
>>>
>>>There are 6 articles in total on the canopy.
>>>
>>>Mickey


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ptrotter



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Westchester County, NY

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Jerry,

I don't think you would want to use ProSeal to attach the canopy. ProSeal
is primarily a sealant, not an adhesive. Although it is quite tenacious, it
is not designed to adhere to plastics or acrylics like the Sikaflex 295 is.
This is too critical and area to use something that is not specifically
designed for that application.

Paul Trotter
---


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Mark Phillips in TN



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:47 pm    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

In a message dated 01/19/2006 2:53:13 PM Central Standard Time, jerry(at)mc.net
writes:
Do you think ProSeal would
glue the canopy well enough to take the place of Silka?
Quote:
>>>>

I used ProSeal to glue the canopy & rear window on my -6A. I also used #4
screws/locknuts along the bottom and rear edges with backup strips but across the
canopy bow and rollbar (tip-up) the ProSeal was all I used with the exception
of two #8 screws at the very top of the canopy bow to hold the relationship
between the plexi and bow as the stuff cured. Result- as soon as it got really
hot the first summer, the plexi pulled away in a couple of places on the
rollbar only- not on the canopy bow (bond between ProSeal and plexi let go)- the
ProSeal bonded better to the painted rollbar than to the plexi, but I didn't
scuff the plexi either- just cleaned it well with naptha and assembled. My
theory is that the canopy bow, being thinner and less rigid than the rollbar, has
a more consistent rate of expansion/contraction with the plexi, or is at least
more resilient and can bend more easily with the plexi than the rollbar can.

It was fairly easy to work with, but I should have added some blackening
agent to it since it cures to a brownish color which is visible through the plexi.
I have since added dark grey trim tape over the joints. The black Sikkaflex
may be a better alternative, but no first-hand experience with it...

Here is a foto that kind of shows the appearance before adding the tape- if
you click on the foto for a larger view, you can barely see some of the
separation on the right side of the picture- the worst separation is a bit lower.

http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5419

Mark Phillips - N51PW - 275 hours


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:09 pm    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

As I had posted before, ProSeal is the specified sealant for Mooneys
windows, and has been for probably 25 years, after the early 201s had some
corrosion problems from side window leakage.

Paul Trotter said:
[quote]

Jerry,

I don't think you would want to use ProSeal to attach the canopy. ProSeal
is primarily a sealant, not an adhesive. Although it is quite tenacious,
it
is not designed to adhere to plastics or acrylics like the Sikaflex 295
is.
This is too critical and area to use something that is not specifically
designed for that application.

Paul Trotter
---


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:19 pm    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Great thread. Does anyone know if this has been attempted with a RV7 tip
up?

Rob
---


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Quote:

I don't think you would want to use ProSeal to attach the canopy.
ProSeal is primarily a sealant, not an adhesive. Although it is
quite tenacious, it
is not designed to adhere to plastics or acrylics like the
Sikaflex 295 is.


As I had posted before, ProSeal is the specified sealant for Mooneys
windows, and has been for probably 25 years, after the early 201s had
some corrosion problems from side window leakage.

Kelly, are the Mooney's windows adhesively bonded into place, or are they
riveted/screwed in as well?

I suspect they are screwed in, or at a minimum retained by a riveted or
screwed-on aluminum border. Used that way, the ProSeal is merely a "gap
filler" to keep things from sliding around, and to keep the air out.
ProSeal is designed to be a water- and air-tight gap filler, and has served
the aviation community in that capacity for a number of years. I don't
think it was ever intended to be the sole mechanical bond in any given
joint.

Sikaflex, on the other hand, is designed to be the sole mechanical
connection between your windshield and its support structure. No
additional fasteners required.

-Rob

Do not archive


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

I'm not sure what retention method is used on the newer models. The
older models have retention clips that hold the plexi in place against
the exterior skin, and the clips are held by counter sunk screws on the
outside and self locking nuts on the inside. Of course the exterior skin
is subject to both expansion/contraction as well as wind forces, as it
is only skin and is non-structural, as the Mooney uses a chrome moly
steel tube frame for the cockpit.

Rob Prior (rv7) wrote:
Quote:


Quote:

Kelly, are the Mooney's windows adhesively bonded into place, or are they
riveted/screwed in as well?

I suspect they are screwed in, or at a minimum retained by a riveted or
screwed-on aluminum border. Used that way, the ProSeal is merely a "gap
filler" to keep things from sliding around, and to keep the air out.
ProSeal is designed to be a water- and air-tight gap filler, and has served
the aviation community in that capacity for a number of years. I don't
think it was ever intended to be the sole mechanical bond in any given
joint.

Sikaflex, on the other hand, is designed to be the sole mechanical
connection between your windshield and its support structure. No
additional fasteners required.

-Rob

Do not archive















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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

--- Jerry Grimmonpre <jerry(at)mc.net> wrote:

Quote:

<jerry(at)mc.net>

Do you
think ProSeal would
glue the canopy well enough to take the place of
Silka?

No.

I watched someone (an A&P/IA no less) use Pro-Seal to
glue small plexigalss windows into the cabin top of a
35' sail boat a couple of years ago. Within 6 months,
the Pro-Seal had pulled loose from the plexiglass, and
the windows were leaking. I personally would want to
use a product specifically designed for glueing
plexiglass/acrylic, and not a sealant for this.

Skylor
RV-8 QB
Under Construction


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:25 am    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

I've just compiled all of the information that I could find in the last
couple of years on the RV-List into a rather long entry on the RV-Wiki.

http://www.rvwiki.org

You can find it by clicking on "Canopy Construction" on the main page. It
has links to the builder's websites that I could find, and text copied from
the RV-List where I couldn't find a builder's website.

-Rob


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Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:05 am    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Do Not Archive
Thanks Rob ... nice job of compiling for the RV wiki Canopy Construction
topic. Regards, Jerry

---


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lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:36 am    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Skylor,
The application sheet for the Sika product specifies an acrylic application, Direct Glazing Adhesive, however one electronic search I did brought up a page where Vans and Sika did not recommend use on aircraft canopies. The reason given was the possibility of improper technique.
My thought is an adhesive rated at 450 psi applied to a canopy will probably be as strong as aluminum pop rivets.

Sherman Butler
RV-7a, Empennage

Skylor Piper <skylor4(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

No.

I watched someone (an A&P/IA no less) use Pro-Seal to
glue small plexigalss windows into the cabin top of a
35' sail boat a couple of years ago. Within 6 months,
the Pro-Seal had pulled loose from the plexiglass, and
the windows were leaking. I personally would want to
use a product specifically designed for glueing
plexiglass/acrylic, and not a sealant for this.

Skylor
RV-8 QB
Under Construction





Sherman Butler
RV-7a Empennage

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

On 11:35:51 2006-01-20 Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
The application sheet for the Sika product specifies an acrylic
application, Direct Glazing Adhesive, however one electronic search I
did brought up a page where Vans and Sika did not recommend use on
aircraft canopies. The reason given was the possibility of improper
technique. My thought is an adhesive rated at 450 psi applied to a
canopy will probably be as strong as aluminum pop rivets.

Sherman, where did you find the spec of 450 psi? The technical data sheet
for Sikaflex 295UV says 160psi tensile, 250psi shear.

<http://www.sikaindustry.com/tds-ipd-sikaflex295uv-us.pdf>

-Rob


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:31 pm    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

Rob,
That is the data in the jamestown catalog. Perhaps different test protocol?

Sherman Butler
RV-7a, Empennage
"Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7(at)b4.ca> wrote:
>My thought is an adhesive rated at 450 psi applied to a
Quote:
canopy will probably be as strong as aluminum pop rivets.

Sherman, where did you find the spec of 450 psi? The technical data sheet
for Sikaflex 295UV says 160psi tensile, 250psi shear.
-Rob

Sherman Butler
RV-7a Empennage

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:47 pm    Post subject: Glueing canopies Reply with quote

On 12:30:22 2006-01-20 Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
That is the data in the jamestown catalog. Perhaps different test
protocol?

Nope, that's not it. Both the Jamestown page:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/xrefsik295uv.jsp

And the Sikaflex page:
http://www.sikaindustry.com/tds-ipd-sikaflex295uv-us.pdf

List the testing spec. as ASTM D412.

I'll email the Jamestown site and see what they say.

-Rob


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