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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
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 Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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All,
Rick Sked indicated that the body of my post may not have been received by everyone, so here's another try. (BTW has anyone else had problems posting to the list recently??)
A number of sections require AN fluid fittings (eg elbows) to be installed (clocked) at a particular angle (eg the fuel line connections at the fuel valve). When the AN fitting is installed, it naturally 'bottoms out' into the part (eg fuel valve) and has a natural clocked position when it is tight.
To achieve a particular clocking, the fitting can't always be 'bottomed out' and hence tight. How do you achieve both correct clocking and a fit tight enough to prevent leaks? Does fuel lube etc provide a useful seal??
TIA
Ron [quote][b]
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ddddsp1(at)juno.com
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NYTerminat(at)aol.com
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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:33 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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No-ones really had a shot at answering Ron’s question in full.
I for one, guilty of not seeking expert advice, reached a “tight” position with my elbow connections and then pushed on until the correct clock angle was reached. In my mind this was less than satisfactory (first clue) but I then went with an Andair valve which has re-locatable ports and so this problem didn’t come up again.
I suspect there are certain situations (such as in questions like this) where it feels like it will pay to keep quiet, hoping some more knowledgeable types chime in.
A lot of us lurking on this list have reached or passed this point. Surely not all builders have magically had their AN elbow fittings, end up in the correct spot? What did we all do? Whose advice did we seek? Is there a torque figure for elbow pipe threads? Is it acceptable to push on past the “damn tight” position?
Come on guys, the best part of this list is the “nuts and bolts” questions and answers.
One of the best benefits of this list is LOTS of opinions. It makes for a huge technical advice pool and makes us part of a fantastic educational experience worldwide.
I hate to think Ron is sitting there in front of his -10, waiting for this vital piece of information and being forced to drink beer after beer until someone answers his question directly!
John 40315
Do not archive (not worth archiving because it still doesn’t answer Ron’s question)
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, 15 August 2006 8:43 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AN Clocking (again)
All,
Rick Sked indicated that the body of my post may not have been received by everyone, so here's another try. (BTW has anyone else had problems posting to the list recently??)
A number of sections require AN fluid fittings (eg elbows) to be installed (clocked) at a particular angle (eg the fuel line connections at the fuel valve). When the AN fitting is installed, it naturally 'bottoms out' into the part (eg fuel valve) and has a natural clocked position when it is tight.
To achieve a particular clocking, the fitting can't always be 'bottomed out' and hence tight. How do you achieve both correct clocking and a fit tight enough to prevent leaks? Does fuel lube etc provide a useful seal??
TIA
Ron 01234567890123
[quote][b]
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jesse(at)itecusa.org
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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I will try to answer in a way that has been recommended and has worked. When we first started, we would take the fittings to the torque value, then clock them from there. Yes, this takes a TON of pressure sometimes, which is not good. In fact, we had some leak when this happened. It was recommended by a very experience A&P that we use some kind of thread sealer, Fuel/Seal Lube works great, then just run them on as tight as we can get them by hand, then clock them from there. We did this on two oil cooler leaks where we had followed the original method and had gotten leaks, and no more leaks. If there is no clocking, he said to get it as tight as you can by hand, then take it one or two flats (1/6 or 2/6 turn) and leave it. It should not “naturally bottom out” in normal conditions, because the pipe threads are tapered so the further you go in, the tighter it should get, unlike a bolt. You should start the lube back at least one thread from the end to make sure you don’t get any in the opening, and thus into your system. Also, don’t use any lube on the flare fittings, just the pipe threads.
Hope this helps.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 6:43 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: AN Clocking (again)
All,
Rick Sked indicated that the body of my post may not have been received by everyone, so here's another try. (BTW has anyone else had problems posting to the list recently??)
A number of sections require AN fluid fittings (eg elbows) to be installed (clocked) at a particular angle (eg the fuel line connections at the fuel valve). When the AN fitting is installed, it naturally 'bottoms out' into the part (eg fuel valve) and has a natural clocked position when it is tight.
To achieve a particular clocking, the fitting can't always be 'bottomed out' and hence tight. How do you achieve both correct clocking and a fit tight enough to prevent leaks? Does fuel lube etc provide a useful seal??
TIA
Ron | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
01234567890123
-- No virus found in this incoming message. Release Date: 8/14/2006
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8/14/2006
[quote][b]
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NYTerminat(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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Jessie
Where did you get the Fuel/Seal lube?
Bob
In a message dated 8/15/2006 9:30:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jesse(at)itecusa.org writes:
| Quote: | | will try to answer in a way that has been recommended and has worked. When we first started, we would take the fittings to the torque value, then clock them from there. Yes, this takes a TON of pressure sometimes, which is not good. In fact, we had some leak when this happened. It was recommended by a very experience A&P that we use some kind of thread sealer, Fuel/Seal Lube works great, then just run them on as tight as we can get them by hand, then clock them from there. We did this on two oil cooler |
[quote][b]
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Tim(at)MyRV10.com
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:41 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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I'm sorry, I chickened out on this one because I didn't want to
give incorrect info. I'll give my take on it, but for those
who want to argue one way or the other, I'm not going to
get into that.
On all the fasteners, there are acceptable torque figures.
I used them all over the place, and constantly referred to
the charts for the proper torque. On the AN fittings, I did
not. I know (*think*) that there exists a proper torque spec,
or perhaps something simple like "3/4 turn past finger tight"
or something of that nature. To be honest, I didn't bother
to check. I've seen it debated in the past, and seen people
like Dan Checkoway just use the "Guttentight" method. My
background experience includes fairly extensive past in
fittings of all sorts, from fluids to low and high pressure
gasses, including extreme toxics and flammables used in the
semiconductor industry. Never have I found a completely
reliable way to get things perfect that you can read on paper.
I've wrecked a couple of fittings (not on the plane) in the past
by over torquing, and I've had a couple leak from under torquing.
99.9% of the time though, it just isn't that tough....you
snug until you know it isn't going to loosen or leak. It's
just something you get the feel for...and doing HP air lines,
you get a feel quickly because you hear it leak if you're wrong.
So on all of mine, I just snugged them up real good. So no,
I have no precise answer. My personal opinion is that I'd
have a hard time trusting a real spec anyway, but I know
there are those who will differ on that opinion.
As for fuel lube, I never used it. I don't know perhaps what
I am missing, but I never saw the need. I used liquid teflon
tape on the NPT (pipe thread, Threaded, NOT the flared connection)
of the fittings, but absolutely nothing on the flared end
or the nut associated with it. Here again, I know there will
be people who will disagree or think something like fuel
lube is good.
For what it's worth, I have had only 2 leaks on my RV-10.
One was the large NPT end of the fitting that goes into
the oil cooler. It was the very tiniest amount of seepage,
probably only 10 drops in 10 hours. I took it out and
resealed it and torqued it down one more turn...this
was tough because those huge fittings that need to be
clocked at a certain angle don't give you much opportunity
for only slightly tightening things. The other leak
was cause by myself, before the first flight. I had
played with that main fuel hose orientation to the fuel
servo (you have to flip the hose backwards from plans for
the new exhaust systems), and never managed to go even
fully finger-tight on one end. That's what assistants
are for though, as I had people watch the first time
that I hit the boost pump, and it was caught before the
engine ever turned over. Do yourself a favor and check
for leaks before starting.
So sorry if I didn't post any answer...but as you can tell,
it's not really a torque spec that I can give.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Dunne wrote:
| Quote: | No-ones really had a shot at answering Ron’s question in full.
I for one, guilty of not seeking expert advice, reached a “tight”
position with my elbow connections and then pushed on until the correct
clock angle was reached. In my mind this was less than satisfactory
(first clue) but I then went with an Andair valve which has re-locatable
ports and so this problem didn’t come up again.
I suspect there are certain situations (such as in questions like this)
where it feels like it will pay to keep quiet, hoping some more
knowledgeable types chime in.
A lot of us lurking on this list have reached or passed this point.
Surely not all builders have magically had their AN elbow fittings, end
up in the correct spot? What did we all do? Whose advice did we seek? Is
there a torque figure for elbow pipe threads? Is it acceptable to push
on past the “damn tight” position?
Come on guys, the best part of this list is the “nuts and bolts”
questions and answers.
One of the best benefits of this list is LOTS of opinions. It makes for
a huge technical advice pool and makes us part of a fantastic
educational experience worldwide.
I hate to think Ron is sitting there in front of his -10, waiting for
this vital piece of information and being forced to drink beer after
beer until someone answers his question directly!
John 40315
Do not archive (not worth archiving because it still doesn’t answer
Ron’s question)
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *McGANN, Ron
*Sent:* Tuesday, 15 August 2006 8:43 AM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* AN Clocking (again)
All,
Rick Sked indicated that the body of my post may not have been received
by everyone, so here's another try. (BTW has anyone else had problems
posting to the list recently??)
A number of sections require AN fluid fittings (eg elbows) to be
installed (clocked) at a particular angle (eg the fuel line connections
at the fuel valve). When the AN fitting is installed, it naturally
'bottoms out' into the part (eg fuel valve) and has a natural clocked
position when it is tight.
To achieve a particular clocking, the fitting can't always be 'bottomed
out' and hence tight. How do you achieve both correct clocking and a
fit tight enough to prevent leaks? Does fuel lube etc provide a useful
seal??
TIA
Ron
* *
* *
* - The RV10-List Email Forum -*
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*--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*
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* - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -*
*--> http://forums.matronics.com*
* - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -*
*--> http://wiki.matronics.com*
* - List Contribution Web Site -*
* -Matt Dralle, List Admin.*
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jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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Don’t remember, but the auto parts store probably has it.
Jesse Saint
I-TEC, Inc.
jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)
www.itecusa.org
W: 352-465-4545
C: 352-427-0285
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:39 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AN Clocking (again)
Jessie
Where did you get the Fuel/Seal lube?
Bob
In a message dated 8/15/2006 9:30:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jesse(at)itecusa.org writes:
| Quote: |
will try to answer in a way that has been recommended and has worked. When we first started, we would take the fittings to the torque value, then clock them from there. Yes, this takes a TON of pressure sometimes, which is not good. In fact, we had some leak when this happened. It was recommended by a very experience A&P that we use some kind of thread sealer, Fuel/Seal Lube works great, then just run them on as tight as we can get them by hand, then clock them from there. We did this on two oil cooler |
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
01234567890123
-- No virus found in this incoming message. Release Date: 8/14/2006
--
8/14/2006
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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ACS has it. Page 355 of their new catalog, under “Lubricants”. Sealube. Good stuff. Don’t know why they don’t list it with fuel system supplies.
Jack Phillips
#40610
VS done – Now on to the Rudder!
--
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Rick S.
Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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Go here for everything you want to know about AN fittings and hoses.
Rick S.
40185
http://www.aeroquip.com/pages/performance_lit.html
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Rick S.
RV-10
40185 |
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Jerry Grimmonpre'
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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There has been a lot of emailing on the rvlist(at)matronics.com (rvlist(at)matronics.com) about TiteSeal. Everyone who has used it raves about how easy it is to use WITH the cork gasket. It's use produces an excellent seal when used with the cork gasket. Having said that, the cork comes off easily when you want to open it back up later. I'm not speaking from experience, only repeating what others, on the rv list, have proclaimed with their experience. It's in the archives and I don't know anymore about the subject nor where one can buy it ... sorry. From what others say I will use it when the time comes to seal the tanks.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
RV4 Flying
RV8A Wires
[quote] ---
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NYTerminat(at)AOL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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Jack,
Thanks, That is what I was looking for!
Bob
do not archive
In a message dated 8/15/2006 10:56:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com writes:
| Quote: |
ACS has it. Page 355 of their new catalog, under “Lubricants”. Sealube. Good stuff. Don’t know why they don’t list it with fuel system supplies.
Jack Phillips
#40610 |
[quote][b]
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm sorry, I chickened out on this one because I didn't want to
give incorrect info. I'll give my take on it, but for those
who want to argue one way or the other, I'm not going to
get into that.
|
snip
| Quote: | As for fuel lube, I never used it. I don't know perhaps what
I am missing, but I never saw the need. I used liquid teflon
tape on the NPT (pipe thread, Threaded, NOT the flared connection)
of the fittings, but absolutely nothing on the flared end
or the nut associated with it. Here again, I know there will
be people who will disagree or think something like fuel
lube is good.
|
snip
Such blasphemy! Liquid teflon on fittings??? Sheesh!!!
Just kidding. I use the liquid teflon on my pipe threads too. Just
keep the first one or two threads clean and you'll never have any
problems. As for fuel lube, it's great also. However, it will, over
time, wash away and may have to be redone way down the road. That's the
only reason I use the liquid teflon ..... it'll stay where it's put and
seals really well. I have seen a lot of fittings that have the liquid
teflon ..... and it's squeezed out in gobs. Use it sparingly ..... it's
not like glue!!! The teflon tape will also work .... just remember to
start a couple of threads back so none can get into your system.
Linn
do not archive
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:51 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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With the thread sealing pastes, try to get one that will set up firm
but soft. This adds a little bit of additional sealing capability where
Teflon tape really just lets you crank down an NPT fitting tighter.
Places like Lowes Depot all carry descent quality thread pastes
nowadays. I get mine from a buddy that's a pipefitter though because he
gets the really good stuff.
If you have Teflon tape, throw it in the trash and switch to a paste.
Also you really must use some sort of sealant/lube on NPT threads in
order to get a good seal.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352
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Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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I also used Teflon paste, it was Locktite 565. It works great
on all fuel and brake line pipe threads. I have used fuel lube in the
past and it works fine on fuel line connections, but I had one hell of
time with leaks on the pipe fittings of brake lines. I've since
switched to locktite 565 on the brake line fitting and haven't had any
issues since.
Thank You
Ray Doerr
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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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Thanks to all for the responses - particularly John for stirring the pot on my behalf.
I spent a fair bit of time researching the matronics archives last night and the very useful link that Rick provided. Clocking the fittings while achieving an acceptable torque really does seem to be a bit of black magic.
One of the more telling pieces of info came from Rick's link to aeroquip:
"Q: How many times can I reuse my fittings and adapters?
A: Inspect sealing surfaces and threaded connections for signs of damage. If they appear to be in good condition, they may be reused. Tapered pipe thread connections are distorted each time they are reinstalled. Often after 3 or 4 tightening sequences the threads are stretched or distorted beyond practical reuse. "
If the NPT type threads are distorted after 3-4 tightening cycles, this suggests to me that you really do need to tighten them a fair bit.
At this stage, I will 'wing it' - as tight as possible while achieving the required clocking. I was going to use fuel lube, but based on list feedback, I will give the teflon paste (locktite 565) a try.
cheers,
Ron
[quote][b]
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Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: AN Clocking (again) |
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Bob,
I was able to get a 35mm film canister full from my local FBO for about a $1 or 2. It doesn’t take that much and a can will not only last you a life time it will last a shop almost a life time as well. Just a side note the stuff is really sticky and no it would come off your hands with avgas.
Vern
Do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:17 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: AN Clocking (again)
Jack,
Thanks, That is what I was looking for!
Bob
do not archive
In a message dated 8/15/2006 10:56:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal.com writes:
| Quote: |
ACS has it. Page 355 of their new catalog, under “Lubricants”. Sealube. Good stuff. Don’t know why they don’t list it with fuel system supplies.
Jack Phillips
#40610 |
01234567890123
[quote][b]
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