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Rcaprd(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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I've been working on the empenage, and have a few questions:
In the AS&S plans, page 7, detail D shows the upper inboard ends of the stabilizer is about 3/8" Above the upper longerons. I've been puzzled by this, and haven't been able to see it clearly on any finished planes. It doesn't make much sense, because it would add a little bit of drag.
The 1 X .035 horizontal spar is saddled up in the V at station 163. My eyeball engineering sees this as a weak way link, and I'm wondering if I should add a gusset here. At this point I have the spar just tacked in, but if I lower the horiz stab spar and add gussets, I should be able to keep the upper inboard ends of the stab below the longerons, and eliminate the interference between the elevator con rod and the diagonal piece. Waddya think ???
It has been suggested to keep the inboard ends of the stab a tight fit against the fuselage. Last evening, I braized the 3/8" ribs on the stabilizers, and now the leading edge of the stabs has increased in length, and leaves a gap between the inboard ends of the stab and the fuse...now I have that to deal with - what to do ?
Acording to the article by Jim Stanton - 'Looking for SPEED', (T.T. # 7) I've incorporated the 'Shield' on the stab, in front of the Counterbalance on the elevators.
Chuck G.
p.s. check out the progress on my web site, and the jack stands I built...they work well.
http://nx770cg.com/NextProjectTailwind.html
the engine is on a separate page, and you're invited to check out the rest of my site, too !!
[quote][b]
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jclement000(at)centurytel
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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Leave the stab. spar in the V where you have it. The top of the inboard 3/8" rib will be slightly lower than the top of the longeron. That is where it should be.
If the leading edge is to long at the front mounting area, cut it off and remove whatever is necessary to make it fit and reweld it. Jim C
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Rcaprd(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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In a message dated 9/30/2006 3:48:19 PM Central Standard Time, jclement000(at)centurytel.net writes:
| Quote: | Leave the stab. spar in the V where you have it. The top of the inboard 3/8" rib will be slightly lower than the top of the longeron. That is where it should be.
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Jim,
I leveled the fuselage on the lower longeron between sta 0 and station 24. When I level the stab, it looks like it does on pg 7 detail D - 3/8" above the longeron.
Chuck G.
[quote][b]
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jclement000(at)centurytel
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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Chuck, I don't have the new spruce plans so I don't know what they show. If what you are referring to is the 3/8" tube welded on the 1-1/4" stabilizer spar forming the inboard rib it will be about 1/8" below the top edge of the longeron. This is at the spar position. The front leading edge will be about 3/4 to 1" below the top edge of the longeron. Incidence will be about 3/4 degree down in front with lower longeron leveled in first bay.
Jim
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Rcaprd(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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In a message dated 9/30/2006 9:52:21 PM Central Standard Time, jclement000(at)centurytel.net writes:
| Quote: | | If what you are referring to is the 3/8" tube welded on the 1-1/4" stabilizer spar forming the inboard rib it will be about 1/8" below the top edge of the longeron. This is at the spar position. The front leading edge will be about 3/4 to 1" below the top edge of the longeron. Incidence will be about 3/4 degree down in front with lower longeron leveled in first bay. |
Yes, the 3/8" tube that forms the inboard rib IS below the top longeron at the spar location, but as the rib progresses forward of the spar, it gets a thicker chord, and the plans shows it above the top longeron...that's the way mine looks. My leading edge is like you said - 3/4 to 1" below the top edge of the longeron.
As far as the gap on the inboard ends, I had the stabs on the wrong side, and when I put them on the correct side I built them for, the gap at the inboard side is the way I made them...very little gap. I obviously have a slight discrepancy in the aft end of the fuselage. I have the spar exactly perpendicular to the C/L of the fuse, so I should be all right there.
Chuck G.
[quote][b]
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jclement000(at)centurytel
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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Skinny down the rib from the spar forward so it doesn't go above the longeron. I've seen all kinds of shapes on the stabilizer ribs on TWs and they all work the same. Jim
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Rcaprd(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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In a message dated 9/30/2006 10:42:34 PM Central Standard Time, jclement000(at)centurytel.net writes:
| Quote: | Skinny down the rib from the spar forward so it doesn't go above the longeron. I've seen all kinds of shapes on the stabilizer ribs on TWs and they all work the same. Jim
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That will take some cutting and welding, but that's what I'll do. I made the airfoil on the stab /elevator to have the thickest part of the airfoil at 25% of the chord. How about a little gusset under the stab spar, where the V opens up ?
Chuck G.
[quote][b]
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CARRXW10(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> [img]cid:004301c6e515$23ba3e80$0C054278(at)Friz[/img][img]cid:004401c6e515$23cae050$0C054278(at)Friz[/img] Photo E-mail [url=http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq9TPrlhrAzGgw%24%24]Play slideshow[/url] | [url=http://photos.msn.com/viewing/Photos.aspx?pi_Type=SlideshowTask&Task=Download&stppData=&pi_ImagesOnly=1&Folder=nBuRgwTGIGizJaARxbZzfLIUmIx8L4*7CfCF6yAWFho%24&User=LJjObqfwa75f2zB1w0h!h*86nubA6bov&pi_NoLogin=1]Download images [/url] Chuck, if you elongated the spar it should fit good into the V and you can make a good weld 1/2 around the spar and no gusset should be needed. As for the stab not fitting on one side and fitting on the other, they should be "symmetrical" and fit on either side. Maybe some of these "rough" shots will help. You can click on one pic if they come through and see them as a slide show and enlarge. Make sure the spar is parallel and level with the front main spar.
Alex
[url=http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq9TPrlhrAzGgw%24%24][img]cid:004501c6e515$23d20c40$0C054278(at)Friz[/img][/url]
[url=http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq*yXHyanwh2RQ%24%24][img]cid:004601c6e515$23d20c40$0C054278(at)Friz[/img][/url]
[url=http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq94DZ3RsPKKww%24%24][img]cid:004701c6e515$23d20c40$0C054278(at)Friz[/img][/url]
[url=http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq89JZrq6EDcxg%24%24][img]cid:004801c6e515$23d20c40$0C054278(at)Friz[/img][/url]
[url=http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq*dPzutr!eSlA%24%24][img]cid:004901c6e515$23d47d40$0C054278(at)Friz[/img][/url]
[url=http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAsNSeZgHA6pcPi*F!OR2dnISGoml*RTYq8GxvbhKzlX9Q%24%24][img]cid:004a01c6e515$23d47d40$0C054278(at)Friz[/img][/url]
[quote] ---
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CARRXW10(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> [img]cid:006a01c6e519$4317bc90$0C054278(at)Friz[/img][img]cid:006b01c6e519$431a2d90$0C054278(at)Friz[/img] Photo E-mail [url=http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAtOK6e0JXYWW0NkCWxu6vdzfZ2U1GXP3ouvAVxT8Frq1A%24%24]Play slideshow[/url] | [url=http://photos.msn.com/viewing/Photos.aspx?pi_Type=SlideshowTask&Task=Download&stppData=&pi_ImagesOnly=1&Folder=nBuRgwTGIGizJaARxbZzfLIUmIx8L4*7SI1biUDr2mg%24&User=LJjObqfwa75f2zB1w0h!h*86nubA6bov&pi_NoLogin=1]Download images [/url] Chuck, on my last post with the pictures I forgot to mention that I had to re-do the ribs because I did not "pre-bend" them before I welded them on. here is a picture of pre-bent inner rib before welding on.
Alex
[url=http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1LmPLmC9HXTYynUYbHsflw3346HVj60WAtOK6e0JXYWW0NkCWxu6vdzfZ2U1GXP3ouvAVxT8Frq1A%24%24][img]cid:006c01c6e519$4331fb50$0C054278(at)Friz[/img][/url]
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jclement000(at)centurytel
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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I weld just the V area on the outside and around the angled vertical side tubes to the back side but not completely up the backside. I think it is better without a gusset around the spar tube as this could create a full 360 degree stress area straight across the tube.
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Rcaprd(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:13 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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In a message dated 10/1/2006 12:03:13 AM Central Standard Time, CARRXW10(at)msn.com writes:
| Quote: | Chuck, if you elongated the spar it should fit good into the V and you can make a good weld 1/2 around the spar and no gusset should be needed. As for the stab not fitting on one side and fitting on the other, they should be "symmetrical" and fit on either side. Maybe some of these "rough" shots will help. You can click on one pic if they come through and see them as a slide show and enlarge. Make sure the spar is parallel and level with the front main spar.
Alex
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Thanks for the pics, Alex.
This is the first steel tube fuselage I've built, and I've certainly discovered how much the tubing moves and stretches when a weld is completed !!
When I jigged up station 163, I got the tubes a little farther apart than I should have, and as a result the stab spar has about 1/8 gaps on front & rear of the stab. I can get a good weld 1/3 of the way around, but not 1/2 way around the stab. Hence, the reason I asked about the gusset.
I made the airfoil of the stabilizer / elevator with the thickest portion of the airfoil at 25% chord, and that is why the upper inner portion of the inboard rib is 3/8" above the upper longeron - forward of the stab spar location. I'm going to follow Jim's suggestion, and cut that 3/8" tubing loose on the forward end - leading edge, and massage it down so it isn't above the upper longeron, and re-weld it.
The aft part of the fuselage is maybe 1/16 different on each side, and when I mistakenly installed the stabs on the wrong sides on the stab spars, it made the 1/8" gap at the inboard ends.
The stab spar is level with the front lower longerons, and parallel with the lower cross tube at the firewall. I haven't got the main spar attach points on yet, but it looks as though the location of them will come out good.
Chuck G.
[quote][b]
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Rcaprd(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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In a message dated 10/1/2006 12:38:40 AM Central Standard Time, jclement000(at)centurytel.net writes:
| Quote: | | I think it is better without a gusset around the spar tube as this could create a full 360 degree stress area straight across the tube. |
Good point Jim, but what if the gap is too large for a good weld ?
Chuck G.
[quote][b]
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jclement000(at)centurytel
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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If the gap is a little wide at the top, make a filler from a flat piece of 4130 and weld it all in.
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rjrellis(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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Chuck,
I think this is the picture you are referring. Perhaps
the photo attached will help others understand what
you are talking about in regard to the stab and
longeron positioning. rle
--- Rcaprd(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | In a message dated 9/30/2006 9:52:21 PM Central
Standard Time,
jclement000(at)centurytel.net writes:
If what you are referring to is the 3/8" tube welded
on the 1-1/4" stabilizer
spar forming the inboard rib it will be about 1/8"
below the top edge of the
longeron. This is at the spar position. The front
leading edge will be about
3/4 to 1" below the top edge of the longeron.
Incidence will be about 3/4
degree down in front with lower longeron leveled in
first bay.
Yes, the 3/8" tube that forms the inboard rib IS
below the top longeron at
the spar location, but as the rib progresses forward
of the spar, it gets a
thicker chord, and the plans shows it above the top
longeron...that's the way mine
looks. My leading edge is like you said - 3/4 to
1" below the top edge of
the longeron.
As far as the gap on the inboard ends, I had the
stabs on the wrong side, and
when I put them on the correct side I built them
for, the gap at the inboard
side is the way I made them...very little gap. I
obviously have a slight
discrepancy in the aft end of the fuselage. I have
the spar exactly perpendicular
to the C/L of the fuse, so I should be all right
there.
Chuck G.
|
Richard L. Ellis, M.D.
Gundersen Lutheran Health System
Co-Director
Norma J. Vinger Center for Breast Care
1900 South Avenue
La Crosse, WI 54601
800.362.9567, ext. 52102
rjrellis(at)yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
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Rcaprd(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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In a message dated 10/1/2006 7:41:55 AM Central Standard Time, rjrellis(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | I think this is the picture you are referring. Perhaps
the photo attached will help others understand what
you are talking about in regard to the stab and
longeron positioning. rle |
Yes, that's it. The thing is, the butt line of this intersection between the stab and fuse is at a slight angle, not in line with the slipstream, which will add drag. On the other hand, this is in an area of a lot of turbulence of the prop wash, and it may not make any difference - other than it just don't look right.
Chuck G.
[quote][b]
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Rcaprd(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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In a message dated 10/1/2006 2:14:03 AM Central Standard Time, jclement000(at)centurytel.net writes:
| Quote: | If the gap is a little wide at the top, make a filler from a flat piece of 4130 and weld it all in.
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Well Jim, I guess you've got an answer for everything !! That's what I'll do, but the gap is at the fwd and aft of the spar.
Chuck G.
[quote][b]
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CARRXW10(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Chuck, I agree with Jim, a piece of filler won't hurt, just don't try to weld all the way around the spar as it could weaken it. I have a set of Steve Wittman prints and he made everything "bone simple" and also vague, which leaves room for modifications of your own as long as it doesn't interfere with structural integrity. I've found that when a problem occurs just ask on the forum site and out of all the responses you get you should be able to come up with a plan. Most everyone has encountered the same problem at some point and that is why I put a lot of trust in what a lot of the "old hands" (builders not buyers) have to say. Still making mistakes and still correcting.
Alex
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jclement000(at)centurytel
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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In that case I would move it either forward or back an put a filler in the gap side.
[quote] ---
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Rcaprd(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: Stabilizer Location |
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In a message dated 10/1/2006 3:45:21 PM Central Standard Time, jclement000(at)centurytel.net writes:
| Quote: | In that case I would move it either forward or back an put a filler in the gap side.
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Thanks so much for your help, Jim. Like Alex mentioned, I too follow the advise of experience. That's what makes these forum's so valuable.
Chuck G.
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