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MIG or TIG?
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mikenipp(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Gents

Looking to buy a new welder. If you could only choose one welder to build a Piet, which one would you choose?

/Mike


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tools



Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 714

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Tig. Miller 330s are a GREAT value right now.

About a dozen of them under a grand on ebay right now. One looks like it'll likely sell for five hundred.

Most are about seven fifty or best...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:15 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Lincoln 175 tig perfect for the aircraft industry or a miller just as good
From: Mike Nipp <mikenipp(at)gmail.com>
To: "pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com" <pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 3:54 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: MIG or TIG?


--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike Nipp <mikenipp(at)gmail.com (mikenipp(at)gmail.com)>

Gents

Looking to buy a new welder. If you could only choose one welder to build a Piet, whic="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matnbsp; -Matt Dralle,pol-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Li> http://foru======================



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:15 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Mig has no place in the aircraft industry.
From: Mike Nipp <mikenipp(at)gmail.com>
To: "pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com" <pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 3:54 PM
Subject: MIG or TIG?


--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike Nipp <mikenipp(at)gmail.com (mikenipp(at)gmail.com)>

Gents

Looking to buy a new welder. If you could only choose one welder to bu --> http://www.matronics.com/Navi= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS===



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:41 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

TIG - no question about it

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Mike Nipp <mikenipp(at)gmail.com (mikenipp(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike Nipp <mikenipp(at)gmail.com (mikenipp(at)gmail.com)>

Gents

Looking to buy a new welder. If you could only choose one welder to build a Piet, which one would you choose?

/Mike



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:14 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

We bought a Miller 180 Tig, it's awesome. Welded the aluminum fuel tank and the thin 4130 for the control horns and everything in between for the Piet with it.

Keith Goff


From: "Mike Nipp" <mikenipp(at)gmail.com>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 8:54:01 AM
Subject: MIG or TIG?


--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Mike Nipp <mikenipp(at)gmail.com>


Gents


Looking to buy a new welder. If you could only choose one welder to build a Piet, which one would you choose?


/Mike

&nbs=============



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Oxy-acetylene

Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia

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William Wynne



Joined: 06 Feb 2014
Posts: 142
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Only buy a welder if you are serious about developing the skill of being a welder. This is a different goal than saving money on having the parts fro your project, or many of the other reasons why people buy welders. Consider that it takes far more hours of personal instruction to learn how to make an airworthy weld than it does to teach the average guy to solo a plane from scratch. You don't learn how to fly by simply owning a plane, and you don't become a welder by owning the machine and just messing with it. It takes study, instruction and practice.
.
If you want to really learn the skill, than buy a very good tig welder. Suggestion: Lincoln 225 precision with micro start. Last part is very important, it is vastly easier to learn with this. If you have literally welded 500 hours a year since 1979, you can weld with junk equipment. If you are new and learning, don't do something dumb like buy a Chinese welder "to try welding." If you want to weld, take it seriously or don't bother. You don't acquire skills by half measure.
.

Mr Budgell's comment "Mig has no place in the aircraft industry." is an opinion, and one he would have a very hard time defending with logic. About 4,500 Avid flyers and Kitfoxes, and 50 years of Maule aircraft says he is wrong. I know the history of aircraft welding very well. B-17 motor mounts were stick welded by women with 7018 rods. Aeronca Cheifs and Champs were also stick welded.
.
I have built many parts for flying planes with Mig, it works, you have to know what you are doing. A skilled operator can make a completely airworthy part with a mig machine, but it isn't a short cut to being a welder, it is a tool for a particular task. I have shown countless parts at Oshkosh that were mig welded, and only 1 out of 500 people could tell it wasn't tig. 95% of the welds I do are tig, but that isn't the only way to build planes. If you want to build aircraft parts, and you are temped to buy a mig because you think it is easer to learn, the machine is cheaper, etc, you have the wrong motivation, and you should just pay a skilled person to make your stuff. Again, the only valid reason that will produce good parts in the long run is really wanting to posses the skill and being willing to work for it.

have been welding since 1979.

I have used nearly every process to build flying planes.

I have welded parts that are now flying on more than 300 aircraft

I taught aircraft welding to A&P students at Embry-Riddle

A builder can either use this experience to his advantage, or listen to people offer opinions about Mig in aircraft. Your year, your hours, your plane, your choice. -ww.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Oxy

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aerocarjake



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Well said William....!

FYI, I am choosing to have my welds done professionally. I don't have to buy equipment or learn that SKILL. I welded in high school but this would be totally different.

I'm building my Pietenpol for FUN - and screwing up welds on parts I have spent a great deal of time fabricating would end the fun for me real fast. ....but that is just one viewpoint on the topic.

It all depends on why you are building. Some people like to do it all and some farm out some of the steps. There is no right or wrong way.... Smile


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:34 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Yea, what William said. I didn't buy the tig to learn how to weld on my plane. My dad welds for a living and he always wanted his own tig so I paid for half and he is doing the welding. I do waste a lot of gas making the scap metal pile bigger though, lots of fun!

Keith
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glen



Joined: 17 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:56 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Why not Mig? I've done lots of high quality mig welds. I've done collision repair for 35yrs. With today's hss and hsla steel, precision welds are rather important. My repairs are expected to endure collision forces just as well as factory.
I'm not trying to argue. I'm just curious why. Glen
Pietenpol Aerial
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[quote] On Jan 20, 2015, at 7:33 PM, goffelectric(at)comcast.net wrote:



Yea, what William said. I didn't buy the tig to learn how to weld on my plane. My dad welds for a living and he always wanted his own tig so I paid for half and he is doing the welding. I do waste a lot of gas making the scap metal pile bigger though, lots of fun!

Keith
---


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William Wynne



Joined: 06 Feb 2014
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Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Glen,

The primary argument against it is that on small thin wall 4130 tubes, unless the operator uses great care, there is the potential to produce unacceptably brittle welds. They will pass most tests, but if you examine a crashed plane carefully, you can some times see a break in the structure right next to a welded cluster, and because of this the airframe might not performe as we understand that a gas or tig welded fuselage will in an accident.

The brittleness is a byproduct of how fast the weld heats up, and how quickly it cools, in addition to the deposited filler wire having the potential to hump up and be thick right to the edge of the bead, and suddenly transition to the basic tube diameter. It is a load concentration. A very skilled mig operator can get around these issues, if, the airframe is designed with favorable wall thickness tubes, and he produces beads that have more material in them ( but evenly deposited), where the higher mass slows the rate if cooling by a critical few seconds.

If you listen to it being done, the operators are repeatedly hitting the trigger (this is called pulsing, but it isn't the same as a pulser function on a tig welder) If all of these factors are covered, it can be airworthy, but it isn't likely that new welders will do this, so mig is not a good idea for most homebuilders. -ww.


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womenfly2



Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:46 am    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Look at Everlast Welders. Very good welders for the money, as good as Miller & the others plus more reasonable in cost. Lots of reviews on YouTube.

I would say TIG, but gas and MIG have there place too. MIG has welded many aircraft so do not rule that out, not to mention that the Maule fuselage is MIG welded.

No matter what you purchase, practice, practice, practice. Welding is more experience then skill.

WF2


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William Wynne



Joined: 06 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

As politely as possible, a few differing perspectives on welding ideas:



Evergreen welders are, in the opinion of many informed people, a marketing scam. Read the website: "sourced from global suppliers" - If you want a Chinese welder, go to harbor freight and by one. True story: Evergreens sales approach is based on having lots of 'non stocking dealers' , a guy with a lot of brochure and a few samples, you order, he makes a cut and it is shipped to you. Their website states that anyone who wants to aggressively push their product is qualified to be a dealer, no welding experience required, nor is any repair or service experience nor a brick and mortar store.

.

A guy from our airport who should have known better, ordered one at Oshkosh. He was lured by chep price, but the promise of Miller quality. It arrives with shipping damage to the housing. He calls to say, just send another housing. They don't want to do this, they only want to send a new welder and bill him for the heavy shipment. With several other curious welders there, the box comes off, and the insides look a lot like the ones from harbor freight. It is loaded up and taken to the Blanding Blvd HF in Jacksonville, where the manager is known, and he allows a side by side comparison with the housings off. They undoubtably came from the exact same assembly line, the only difference is the Evergreen is green, cost twice as much, and doesn't have the local HF store who would gladly warrantee their china welder.

.

I have owned most brands of electric welders, but 90% of my work has been done with Lincoln. This said, no fair person with experience will tell you that any other welder is as good as a Miller, period. Calling a Chinese weldor as good as a Miller is not a defendable statement. 100 endorsements of evergreen on youtube are meaningless, they are a product of their dealers, As I said before, a skilled person could use a car battery and jumper cables and a 6011 rod to weld, but it isn't how a serious person learns. Go back to my point about having a machine with 'micro-start', it is a vast improvement for beginners and skilled alike. My Lincoln 170 square wave didn't have it, and I welded 250 motor mounts in 10 years with it. My 225 is a generation newer, and it does, and you don't fully appreciate the difference until you try to go back and use the old machine, not for 5 minutes, but an 8 hour day. With the modern machine, I can go a week without sticking the tungsten. This is incredibly helpful to anyone who must use reading glasses and has a specific focal range up close.

.

Welding is a Skill, and it is not practice. Ask any Coach or instructor the old adage "Practice makes Perfect" is pleasant puritan bullshit. The only thing practice makes in consistency. If a person does something incorrectly, and they practice it a lot, what happens is that they become very consistent at doing it wrong. There are plenty of 5,000 hr pilots who can't fly a power off approach, and plenty of people who have been welding for 25 years and do a consistently poor job. The awareness that there is a skill to learn, and the willingness to accept instruction makes the difference, not the practice. For a look at a rear welder, read the bottom of this: http://flycorvair.net/2014/10/26/shop-notes-102614/

.

.

To my Oxy loving friends: I am arguably the worst luddite caveman you know: I don't own a cell phone, I have a 29 year old truck with a Detroit 3-53 in it, I drive a 49 year old Corvair, I use a 99 year old .30-06 with iron sights, and spent last evening reading an real paper copy of the September 1934 National Geographic with Anne Lindbergh's story of flying the Atlantic in .Tingmissartoq'. I have a very fine and well worn collection of old Victor gas torches, and I welded many, many fuselages with them. I resisted being a Tig owner for years. Today, I regard that as a poor choice, and wish I had bought one before 1994. -ww.


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Larry M



Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

I'd like to learn to weld. My best idea to date is to attend an EAA seminar and start making scrap metal.

Other ideas?
TIG or gas?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Larry,

Four years ago I spent an enjoyable day with my 16 year old son and a very experienced man who gave us plenty of tips and instruction and showed us how to set up our tanks and torches and weld. On the way home we bought some steel piece from Metal Supermarket and for the next month we just practiced. I feel quite confident in my oxy welds now but I did go back to him for tig work on my engine mount and cabane fittings. The rest of the fittings requiring welding are not subject to high loads.

I may purchase a Tig one day but I'm sure glad I started by learning on gas.

Scott K.

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Jan 21, 2015, at 4:39 PM, "Larry M" <marquez(at)att.net> wrote:



I'd like to learn to weld. My best idea to date is to attend an EAA seminar and start making scrap metal.

Other ideas?
TIG or gas?

Thanks




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tools



Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 714

PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Possibly better than and certainly on par with eaa seminars are the classes offered by Lincoln. I imagine miller has them as well.

Curious to try the newer tig welders. Gotta say, my old 330 and synchrowave do do a great job. Nice big heavy copper transformers seem to be at least part of the nice stable controllable arc equation. And mine aren't fed with massive circuits, nor do I use them for very heavy welding.

Albeit gonna be a tougher row to hoe, oxy acet is still worth considering. Even if you don't want to weld your plane with it, it helps you learn to spot and track a weld puddle. They also cut, heat, braze and burn things nicely.

As with all tools, the real answer is get them all, throw in a plasma cutter for good measure... Blah blah.

I'm hoping to have a skilled aircraft welder at toolstock, so people can at least play around with oxy acet mig and tig to get an idea of where they want to place their efforts.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

Larry,

A couple of years ago I took the EAA welding class and it's pretty good, but all we did was thin (1/16" or so) 4130. Afterwards, I was able to do my engine mount welds where it was thin tubing-to-thin tubing, but the thick clusters were another matter. I just couldn't get enough heat on them and ended up getting the old-timer at our airport to weld them for me. Perhaps if you attend the EAA course you could take some thicker steel and get the instructor to show you how to weld a cluster. I just didn't trust my skills to weld the entire engine mount (or landing gear for that matter), and still don't to this day.

Regards,
John Franklin
GN-1 / Corvair 164cid
Prairie Aire 4TA0
Needville, TX
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:13 pm    Post subject: MIG or TIG? Reply with quote

While I'm not currently building a Piet yet (must finish my Sonex first) I have and use all three, TIG, MIG, and OXY-Acetylene. At one time I could weld Automotive exhaust tubing (I can't tell much difference between welding that and aircraft Chrome-Moly) so that when cutting the weld apart you could not be sure which side of the metal the torch had been on. It takes A LOT of current practice to get that good with a torch, much like playing difficult music on a piano. If (and not likely) I get that good with a torch again, that is what I would use, otherwise I would use TIG.
The results would be hard to tell apart, and there would be less risk of the metal next to the weld being quenched by the sharp temperature gradiant that the very localized heat that is characteristic of TIG welding. The weldment will absorb a lot less heat using TIG (or MIG) than using Acetylene, reducing the warping of the structure. Also, Oxy-Acetylene is SLOW, but the slowness is what heats up the part farther from the melted metal thus making the hottest part cool more slowly. Most failed TIG or MIG welds that break in Cro-Moly don't break at the weld, they break right next to the weld where the cold metal had drawn the heat away too quickly and hardened the metal.
Cro-Moly was developed years before TIG or MIG welding and torch welding was just about the only way to weld up and assembly. I've never heard of a welded tube frame airplane from before WW-2 that was but together other than with torches. Early Kitfoxes and Avids were MIG welded and Rockwell-hardness checked from time to time. There was always some hardening next to the weld, but they had specs. about how much was acceptable.
I consider an Oxy-Acetylene outfit a neccesity (Spelling), it's use for heating almost anything for forming or breaking loose rusted nuts and capscrews in addition to welding is just too handy. Its also great for welding light Al in automotive bodywork where .063 3003 h14 is the most common. I have welded 6061 with my torch. If you use narrow strips cut from the same sheet as the part for welding rod, metal finishing makes the weld vanish, the weld has the same hardness, color and shine as the base metal. Aluminum welding requires special goggles and flux though, and again, current practice.
Of course I bought my Oxy-Acetylene outfit when I was 16, and now I'm 72. The gas bottles were $72 each, now they're closer to $135-$150. Not at all a bad rate of inflation since 1958!
Tom Hale

From: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
To: pietenpol-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 2:15:46 PM
Subject: RE: MIG or TIG?
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com>
Oxy-acetylene
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
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