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Starting problem

 
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jrstone54(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11

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f1rocket(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:09 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

I have a dual Lightspeed system and have never had any problem.
Electronic Ignition for Aircraft



[img]http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Images/Plasma_II_Plus.bmp[/img]





Electronic Ignition for AircraftSport Aviation, February 1995 In 1994 Klaus Savier entered five races, won them all and had no failures. ELECTRONIC IGNITION FOR AIRCRAFT By Klaus Savier E...

View on www.lightspeedengine...
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I also use the B&C Lightweight starter that doesn't seem to cause a significant voltage drop in the system.


B & C LIGHTWEIGHT STARTERS FOR LYCOMING from Aircraft Spruce









B & C LIGHTWEIGHT STARTERS FOR LYCOMING from...Other Customers Have Also Viewed: CONT. 0-200 HEAT BOX CESSNA 150 STYLE HEAT BOX $173.95

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And just to make the issue more challenging, my engine is a high-compression model with Lycon's 10.5:1 pistons.
The only time it doesn't start by the 3 rotation is if I don't prime for a full 11 seconds, which is when the fuel pressure stabilizes.
Hope this helps.
Scot Stambaugh


On Saturday, August 8, 2015 7:32 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net> wrote:
I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.Does anyone have a proven solution?TIA,Jim Stone[url=]Louisville Kentucky[/url] HR 11
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voltar(at)vx-aviation.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:29 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

You could add a holdover battery, as illustrated on the IGN page of this document: http://54.162.78.90/redmine/attachments/download/94/VFR%20Aircraft%20Electrical%20System%20Rev%205.pdf
Vern
HR-II C-GVRL

======Vernon R. Little | President, Vx Aviation

On Aug 8, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net (jrstone54(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]
I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11

Quote:


D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Jones15183(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:42 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Hi Jim, former F! Rocker owner. Can you explain your complete starting procedure. I had Electroair and an Impulse mag. I never had a hot or cold start problem. You talk about getting the mixture right. Shouldn"t be fooling with mixture control in process of eng. starting. Let me hear from you on you about your complete starting process. Billy Waters McGregor,tx.

In a message dated 8/8/2015 10:29:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, voltar(at)vx-aviation.com writes:
Quote:
You could add a holdover battery, as illustrated on the IGN page of this document: http://54.162.78.90/redmine/attachments/download/94/VFR%20Aircraft%20Electrical%20System%20Rev%205.pdf


Vern
HR-II C-GVRL

====== Vernon R. Little | President, Vx Aviation

On Aug 8, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net (jrstone54(at)att.net)> wrote:
Quote:

I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11



Quote:


D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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stuart(at)stuarthutchison
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:20 am    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

It's not uncommon to change mixture during start on a fuel injected Lycoming (I have a C4B5 F1 Rocket as well) Typically:
1. Full throttle + Mixture full rich
2. Electric fuel pump on for 4-5 seconds, then off
3. Throttle back to only 1/4" + Mixture full lean
6. Crank the engine
7. When it fires, Mixture full rich immediately
Priming like this saturates the head intakes (cos the injectors are ALL squirting continuously into each cylinder head i.e. fuel/air only goes into a cylinder when the intake valve opens), then idle cut off stops all fuel flow. As the rich mixture leans down to optimum value during cranking (which doesn't take long) the engines fires ... reintroduce fuel and it runs. Super reliable, just prime less when hot starting.
Kind Regards, Stu

Sent from my iPhone
On 9 Aug 2015, at 7:42 am, <Jones15183(at)aol.com (Jones15183(at)aol.com)> <Jones15183(at)aol.com (Jones15183(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] Hi Jim, former F! Rocker owner. Can you explain your complete starting procedure. I had Electroair and an Impulse mag. I never had a hot or cold start problem. You talk about getting the mixture right. Shouldn"t be fooling with mixture control in process of eng. starting. Let me hear from you on you about your complete starting process. Billy Waters McGregor,tx.

In a message dated 8/8/2015 10:29:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, voltar(at)vx-aviation.com (voltar(at)vx-aviation.com) writes:
Quote:
You could add a holdover battery, as illustrated on the IGN page of this document: http://54.162.78.90/redmine/attachments/download/94/VFR%20Aircraft%20Electrical%20System%20Rev%205.pdf


Vern
HR-II C-GVRL

====== Vernon R. Little | President, Vx Aviation

On Aug 8, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net (jrstone54(at)att.net)> wrote:
Quote:

I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11



Quote:


D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Jones15183(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:52 am    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

The procedure stated below is identical to mine, with one exception, ( I also had a fuel injected eng.) I never changed the mixture setting during startup, always mixture full off after priming. if not it was subject to flooding..and always cranked very quickly. Only exception, sometimes I used full throttle on startup. Billy

In a message dated 8/9/2015 5:20:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time, stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au writes:
Quote:
It's not uncommon to change mixture during start on a fuel injected Lycoming (I have a C4B5 F1 Rocket as well) Typically:


1. Full throttle + Mixture full rich
2. Electric fuel pump on for 4-5 seconds, then off
3. Throttle back to only 1/4" + Mixture full lean
6. Crank the engine
7. When it fires, Mixture full rich immediately


Priming like this saturates the head intakes (cos the injectors are ALL squirting continuously into each cylinder head i.e. fuel/air only goes into a cylinder when the intake valve opens), then idle cut off stops all fuel flow. As the rich mixture leans down to optimum value during cranking (which doesn't take long) the engines fires ... reintroduce fuel and it runs. Super reliable, just prime less when hot starting.
Kind Regards, Stu

Sent from my iPhone


On 9 Aug 2015, at 7:42 am, <Jones15183(at)aol.com (Jones15183(at)aol.com)> <Jones15183(at)aol.com (Jones15183(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Hi Jim, former F! Rocker owner. Can you explain your complete starting procedure. I had Electroair and an Impulse mag. I never had a hot or cold start problem. You talk about getting the mixture right. Shouldn"t be fooling with mixture control in process of eng. starting. Let me hear from you on you about your complete starting process. Billy Waters McGregor,tx.

In a message dated 8/8/2015 10:29:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, voltar(at)vx-aviation.com (voltar(at)vx-aviation.com) writes:
Quote:
You could add a holdover battery, as illustrated on the IGN page of this document: http://54.162.78.90/redmine/attachments/download/94/VFR%20Aircraft%20Electrical%20System%20Rev%205.pdf


Vern
HR-II C-GVRL

====== Vernon R. Little | President, Vx Aviation

On Aug 8, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net (jrstone54(at)att.net)> wrote:
Quote:

I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11



Quote:


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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List">http://www.matron====================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
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bdtopp(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:06 am    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Jim,

I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto plugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir.  I also had this same setup on another home built with no issues.   I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts.  Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts.  In fact, my cold starts are quick and easy.   I am having issues with hot starts but it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short period of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked.  I have a plenum over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my problem.

The only suggestions I have:
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Maybe battery is starting to show it’s age and you are starting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it should be?
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok?  Maybe that is causing more power draw than required?

Hope this helps.  Good luck

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Starting problem


I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:55 am    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Jim,
My C4B5 powered HR2 was setup identical to yours. My Concorde battery was in the baggage cpt for CG and lagged starting very similarly to yours. I switched plugs to Denso L14U plugs and used my Elextroair on the lowers and changed to Champion 37BY plugs on the Mag. I switched to an odyssey PC925 and problem solved.
Hope this helps...
Your mileage may vary..Smile
Smokey

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 9, 2015, at 08:06, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Jim,

I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto plugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on another home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fact, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts but it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short period of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenum over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my problem.

The only suggestions I have:
1. Maybe battery is starting to show it’s age and you are starting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it should be?
3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is causing more power draw than required?

Hope this helps. Good luck

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com (rocket-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Starting problem


I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:46 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Hi Vern,
The battery idea would help when my batts got low, what 12 volt battery did you use?
What charges the battery used to power the EIS?
Thanks for your help,
Jim Stone

On Aug 8, 2015, at 11:29 PM, Vern Little <voltar(at)vx-aviation.com (voltar(at)vx-aviation.com)> wrote:
[quote]You could add a holdover battery, as illustrated on the IGN page of this document: http://54.162.78.90/redmine/attachments/download/94/VFR%20Aircraft%20Electrical%20System%20Rev%205.pdf
Vern
HR-II C-GVRL

======Vernon R. Little | President, Vx Aviation

On Aug 8, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net (jrstone54(at)att.net)> wrote:
Quote:

I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11

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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:51 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Hi Stu,
I will try your exact starting procedure, it is similar to what I am using. I suspect I am flooding the engine and with late spark introduction, it gets worse with the increase in cranking seconds.
Thank you for your response,
Jim Stone
On Aug 9, 2015, at 6:20 AM, iiNet <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:
[quote]It's not uncommon to change mixture during start on a fuel injected Lycoming (I have a C4B5 F1 Rocket as well) Typically:
1. Full throttle + Mixture full rich
2. Electric fuel pump on for 4-5 seconds, then off
3. Throttle back to only 1/4" + Mixture full lean
6. Crank the engine
7. When it fires, Mixture full rich immediately
Priming like this saturates the head intakes (cos the injectors are ALL squirting continuously into each cylinder head i.e. fuel/air only goes into a cylinder when the intake valve opens), then idle cut off stops all fuel flow. As the rich mixture leans down to optimum value during cranking (which doesn't take long) the engines fires ... reintroduce fuel and it runs. Super reliable, just prime less when hot starting.
Kind Regards, Stu

Sent from my iPhone
On 9 Aug 2015, at 7:42 am, <Jones15183(at)aol.com (Jones15183(at)aol.com)> <Jones15183(at)aol.com (Jones15183(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Hi Jim, former F! Rocker owner. Can you explain your complete starting procedure. I had Electroair and an Impulse mag. I never had a hot or cold start problem. You talk about getting the mixture right. Shouldn"t be fooling with mixture control in process of eng. starting. Let me hear from you on you about your complete starting process. Billy Waters McGregor,tx.

In a message dated 8/8/2015 10:29:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, voltar(at)vx-aviation.com (voltar(at)vx-aviation.com) writes:
Quote:
You could add a holdover battery, as illustrated on the IGN page of this document: http://54.162.78.90/redmine/attachments/download/94/VFR%20Aircraft%20Electrical%20System%20Rev%205.pdf


Vern
HR-II C-GVRL

====== Vernon R. Little | President, Vx Aviation

On Aug 8, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net (jrstone54(at)att.net)> wrote:
Quote:

I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:58 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Hi Bruce,
I started my trouble shooting with two new Odyssey P650 batteries.
Starter is a B&C starter with 650 hours and many more starts. Wiring is good as evidenced by good cranking rpm and endurance.
How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start?
I watched the power light on my EIS controller as I cranked, it appears as though there is a steady green light until it produces a spark on start, I will verify this tomorrow with a call to ElectroAir. Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start?
Thanks for your help,
Jim Stone


On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Jim,

I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto plugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on another home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fact, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts but it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short period of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenum over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my problem.

The only suggestions I have:
1. Maybe battery is starting to show it’s age and you are starting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it should be?
3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is causing more power draw than required?

Hope this helps. Good luck

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com (rocket-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Starting problem


I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11




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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:02 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Hey Smokey,
I'll keep the plug info and idea in mind unless you realized a significant improvement in your starting when you changed them out. Do you know of anyone using the slick start on the Rocket?
Thanks for your Help,
Jim Stone

On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:55 PM, Rob Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com (smokyray(at)rocketmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Jim,
My C4B5 powered HR2 was setup identical to yours. My Concorde battery was in the baggage cpt for CG and lagged starting very similarly to yours. I switched plugs to Denso L14U plugs and used my Elextroair on the lowers and changed to Champion 37BY plugs on the Mag. I switched to an odyssey PC925 and problem solved.
Hope this helps...
Your mileage may vary..Smile
Smokey

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 9, 2015, at 08:06, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Quote:
<![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Jim,

I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto plugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on another home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fact, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts but it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short period of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenum over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my problem.

The only suggestions I have:
1. Maybe battery is starting to show it’s age and you are starting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it should be?
3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is causing more power draw than required?

Hope this helps. Good luck

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com (rocket-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Starting problem


I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11




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smokyray(at)rocketmail.co
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:35 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Hi Jim,
I have used the slick start on an RV10 with a C4B5 I delivered several years ago. As I remember it worked well using the standard: Cold start 5 seconds of boost both mags on mixture lean throttle cracked. Mixture rich at initial start indication.
Hot: same except boost on entire time and during ground ops.
New hotter plugs really helped my Rockets hot start success along with the boost pump on and going to a skytech hi power starter and PC925.
My friend "VB"still has the RV10 with slick start and can be reached for info at vdbod(at)hotmail.com (vdbod(at)hotmail.com)
V/R
Smokey

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 9, 2015, at 19:01, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net (jrstone54(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]Hey Smokey,
I'll keep the plug info and idea in mind unless you realized a significant improvement in your starting when you changed them out. Do you know of anyone using the slick start on the Rocket?
Thanks for your Help,
Jim Stone

On Aug 9, 2015, at 12:55 PM, Rob Ray <smokyray(at)rocketmail.com (smokyray(at)rocketmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Jim,
My C4B5 powered HR2 was setup identical to yours. My Concorde battery was in the baggage cpt for CG and lagged starting very similarly to yours. I switched plugs to Denso L14U plugs and used my Elextroair on the lowers and changed to Champion 37BY plugs on the Mag. I switched to an odyssey PC925 and problem solved.
Hope this helps...
Your mileage may vary..Smile
Smokey

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 9, 2015, at 08:06, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Quote:
<![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Jim,

I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto plugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on another home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fact, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts but it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short period of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenum over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my problem.

The only suggestions I have:
1. Maybe battery is starting to show it’s age and you are starting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it should be?
3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is causing more power draw than required?

Hope this helps. Good luck

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com (rocket-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Starting problem


I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11




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voltar(at)vx-aviation.com
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:13 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Battery part number is in the schematic. Charging current is through the high power schottky diode also shown. Both the battery and diode are stock digi-key.
Vern

======Vernon R. Little | President, Vx Aviation

On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:46 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net (jrstone54(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]Hi Vern,
The battery idea would help when my batts got low, what 12 volt battery did you use?
What charges the battery used to power the EIS?
Thanks for your help,
Jim Stone

On Aug 8, 2015, at 11:29 PM, Vern Little <voltar(at)vx-aviation.com (voltar(at)vx-aviation.com)> wrote:
Quote:
You could add a holdover battery, as illustrated on the IGN page of this document: http://54.162.78.90/redmine/attachments/download/94/VFR%20Aircraft%20Electrical%20System%20Rev%205.pdf
Vern
HR-II C-GVRL

======Vernon R. Little | President, Vx Aviation

On Aug 8, 2015, at 6:27 PM, Jim Stone <jrstone54(at)att.net (jrstone54(at)att.net)> wrote:
Quote:

I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11

Quote:


D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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t-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
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ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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bdtopp(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:32 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Jim,

My apologies for the late reply.

How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start?  Here is the typical cold start for me.  It typically takes two attempts.  The first time I crank for approx. 5-6 secs.  I stop and prime a little more and it starts in the next 3-4 secs.  I could probably prime more the first time and it would start but I  am nervous on flooding the engine.

Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start?  I do not.  When my engine was being built, the engine builder asked if I wanted a “shower of sparks” setup.  I did not want the extra cost and hardware installed.  I reached out to ElectroAir and discussed the advantages/problems with starts using the electronic ignition.  The advantage was suppose to be better starts with a better spark.  The disadvantage was that a good battery is needed for the electronic ign to work proper during the start cycle.  And…. The engine will not start with a dead battery as I have no impulse coupler on the Mag.  I have to keep the Mag off during start up to avoid kick back because there is no impulse coupler to retard timing on the Mag during start up.  Once engine fires I turn the Mag on.

Have you made any progress on figuring out your problem?

Regards,

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Stonee
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 6:58 PMt
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.coms
Subject: Re: Starting problem

Hi Bruce,

I started my trouble shooting with two new Odyssey P650 batteries.
Starter is a B&C starter with 650 hours and many more starts. Wiring is good as evidenced by good cranking rpm and endurance.

How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start?

I watched the power light on my EIS controller as I cranked, it appears as though there is a steady green light until it produces a spark on start, I will verify this tomorrow with a call to ElectroAir. Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start?

Thanks for your help,
Jim Stone



On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Quote:

Jim,

I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto plugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on another home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fact, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts but it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short period of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenum over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my problem.

The only suggestions I have:
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Maybe battery is starting to show it’s age and you are starting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it should be?
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is causing more power draw than required?

Hope this helps. Good luck

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com (rocket-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Starting problem


I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11




Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dt-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Rocket-List
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egilroy(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Since you are "IO", have you looked into the new iStart product from the Skytec guys?

Saw it at KOSH and it seems to put some computing power behind mixture and spark control at start of IO engines. If forget if it does sixes yet, but it is available for 4's for sure. Currently only available experimental, but that shouldn't be an issue Smile
On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Jim,
 
My apologies for the late reply.
 
How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start?  Here is the typical cold start for me.  It typically takes two attempts.  The first time I crank for approx. 5-6 secs.  I stop and prime a little more and it starts in the next 3-4 secs.  I could probably prime more the first time and it would start but I  am nervous on flooding the engine.
 
Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start?  I do not.  When my engine was being built, the engine builder asked if I wanted a “shower of sparks” setup.  I did not want the extra cost and hardware installed.  I reached out to ElectroAir and discussed the advantages/problems with starts using the electronic ignition.  The advantage was suppose to be better starts with a better spark.  The disadvantage was that a good battery is needed for the electronic ign to work proper during the start cycle.  And…. The engine will not start with a dead battery as I have no impulse coupler on the Mag.  I have to keep the Mag off during start up to avoid kick back because there is no impulse coupler to retard timing on the Mag during start up.  Once engine fires I turn the Mag on.
 
Have you made any progress on figuring out your problem?
 
Regards,
 
Bruce
 
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stonee
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 6:58 PMt
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.coms
Subject: Re: Rocket-List: Starting problem
 
Hi Bruce,

I started my trouble shooting with two new Odyssey P650 batteries.
Starter is a B&C starter with 650 hours and many more starts.  Wiring is good as evidenced by good cranking rpm and endurance.

How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start?

I watched the power light on my EIS controller as I cranked, it appears as though there is a steady green light until it produces a spark on start, I will verify this tomorrow with a call to ElectroAir.  Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start?

Thanks for your help,
Jim Stone

 

On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Quote:

Jim,
 
I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto plugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir.  I also had this same setup on another home built with no issues.   I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts.  Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts.  In fact, my cold starts are quick and easy.   I am having issues with hot starts but it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short period of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked.  I have a plenum over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my problem.
 
The only suggestions I have:
1.      Maybe battery is starting to show it’s age and you are starting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
2.      Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it should be?
3.      Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok?  Maybe that is causing more power draw than required?
 
Hope this helps.  Good luck
 
Bruce
 
From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com (rocket-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Starting problem
 

I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark.  ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark.  This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark.  Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result.  So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI  I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k..  Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
Louisville Kentucky 
HR 11
 

 

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jrstone54(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:17 am    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Hi Bruce,
After another discussion with Mike at ElectroAir, he is convinced that the crank sensor is not sensing correctly during engine start. We know this because the light in the EIS, should alternate green/red almost immediately after starter engagement indicating the sensor is reading the missing tooth in the crank gear ring. Mike says that since it works fine after start, there may be a problem with the high voltage starter cable from the coil could be affecting the sensor's signal to the EIS. My current situation requires 8-10 seconds of cranking before I get any green /red indication on the EIS. He asked if the two wires were bundled together, they were not. They do however cross and touch at one spot just under the starter where they are zip tied together.
I plan to have one last look around for a cause of bad sensor information going to the EIS and then I plan to remove the propeller and have a look at the crank sensor and ring gear on the crank. Perhaps the ring gear or sensor to ring gear gap has changed. I plan to go ahead and replace the crank sensor while I'm in there to rule out a possible bag wire or shielding.

Thanks for your help and input,
Jim stone
On Aug 14, 2015, at 11:31 PM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Jim,

My apologies for the late reply.

How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start? Here is the typical cold start for me. It typically takes two attempts. The first time I crank for approx. 5-6 secs. I stop and prime a little more and it starts in the next 3-4 secs. I could probably prime more the first time and it would start but I am nervous on flooding the engine.

Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start? I do not. When my engine was being built, the engine builder asked if I wanted a “shower of sparks” setup. I did not want the extra cost and hardware installed. I reached out to ElectroAir and discussed the advantages/problems with starts using the electronic ignition. The advantage was suppose to be better starts with a better spark. The disadvantage was that a good battery is needed for the electronic ign to work proper during the start cycle. And…. The engine will not start with a dead battery as I have no impulse coupler on the Mag. I have to keep the Mag off during start up to avoid kick back because there is no impulse coupler to retard timing on the Mag during start up. Once engine fires I turn the Mag on.

Have you made any progress on figuring out your problem?

Regards,

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stonee
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 6:58 PMt
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.coms (rocket-list(at)matronics.coms)
Subject: Re: Starting problem

Hi Bruce,

I started my trouble shooting with two new Odyssey P650 batteries.
Starter is a B&C starter with 650 hours and many more starts. Wiring is good as evidenced by good cranking rpm and endurance.

How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start?

I watched the power light on my EIS controller as I cranked, it appears as though there is a steady green light until it produces a spark on start, I will verify this tomorrow with a call to ElectroAir. Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start?

Thanks for your help,
Jim Stone



On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Quote:

Jim,

I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto plugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on another home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fact, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts but it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short period of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenum over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my problem.

The only suggestions I have:
1. Maybe battery is starting to show it’s age and you are starting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it should be?
3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is causing more power draw than required?

Hope this helps. Good luck

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com (rocket-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Starting problem


I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
[url=x-apple-data-detectors://0/1]Louisville Kentucky[/url]
HR 11




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jrstone54(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject: Starting problem Reply with quote

Will check that out, thanks,
Jim

On Aug 14, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Ed Gilroy <egilroy(at)gmail.com (egilroy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Since you are "IO", have you looked into the new iStart product from the Skytec guys?

Saw it at KOSH and it seems to put some computing power behind mixture and spark control at start of IO engines. If forget if it does sixes yet, but it is available for 4's for sure. Currently only available experimental, but that shouldn't be an issue Smile
On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Quote:

Jim,

My apologies for the late reply.

How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start? Here is the typical cold start for me. It typically takes two attempts. The first time I crank for approx. 5-6 secs. I stop and prime a little more and it starts in the next 3-4 secs. I could probably prime more the first time and it would start but I am nervous on flooding the engine.

Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start? I do not. When my engine was being built, the engine builder asked if I wanted a “shower of sparks” setup. I did not want the extra cost and hardware installed. I reached out to ElectroAir and discussed the advantages/problems with starts using the electronic ignition. The advantage was suppose to be better starts with a better spark. The disadvantage was that a good battery is needed for the electronic ign to work proper during the start cycle. And…. The engine will not start with a dead battery as I have no impulse coupler on the Mag. I have to keep the Mag off during start up to avoid kick back because there is no impulse coupler to retard timing on the Mag during start up. Once engine fires I turn the Mag on.

Have you made any progress on figuring out your problem?

Regards,

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stonee
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2015 6:58 PMt
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.coms (rocket-list(at)matronics.coms)
Subject: Re: Starting problem

Hi Bruce,

I started my trouble shooting with two new Odyssey P650 batteries.
Starter is a B&C starter with 650 hours and many more starts. Wiring is good as evidenced by good cranking rpm and endurance.

How many seconds of cranking does it take your engine to start?

I watched the power light on my EIS controller as I cranked, it appears as though there is a steady green light until it produces a spark on start, I will verify this tomorrow with a call to ElectroAir. Do you know of anyone finding relief from the slick start?

Thanks for your help,
Jim Stone



On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Bruce Topp <bdtopp(at)comcast.net (bdtopp(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Quote:

Jim,

I have the same setup as you do on a IO 540 D4A5 except I am using auto plugs on the lower plugs with the ElectroAir. I also had this same setup on another home built with no issues. I was told by ElectroAir that the system will produce spark down to approx. 8 volts. Regardless of what I have been told vs what you have been told, I have no issues with cold starts. In fact, my cold starts are quick and easy. I am having issues with hot starts but it is related to fuel vaporization after the airplane sits for a short period of time after a flight and the engine gets heat soaked. I have a plenum over the engine vs the baffling which I believe is contributing to my problem.

The only suggestions I have:
1. Maybe battery is starting to show it’s age and you are starting to get voltage drops below what the EIS can handle?
2. Maybe starting is showing its age and drawing more power than it should be?
3. Are all connections/crimps in starting circuit ok? Maybe that is causing more power draw than required?

Hope this helps. Good luck

Bruce

From: owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rocket-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jim Stone
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:28 PM
To: rocket-list(at)matronics.com (rocket-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Starting problem


I'm looking for ideas to improve my start up both cold and hot.
I have an IO 540 C4 B5 with a non impulse mag on the upper plugs and ElectroAir Electronic ignition (latest version on the lower plugs), and all aviation plugs.
I removed the slick impulse Mag a year ago after the Slick Rep advised me to "get it off that engine before it comes apart and stops your engine".
I have been starting with just the ElectroAir and realized it is not my starting technique as much as it is a lack of spark. ElectroAir told me that the system has to measure a pretty fast cranking speed for what seems like a long time before it produces a spark. This cranking pulls the battery voltage down and if the voltage to the ElectroAir controller falls below 11 volts, it no longer produces a spark. Of course I have no indication of no spark other than the obvious no start result. So with some luck the batteries hold up long enough tilI I get the mixture right, if not, recharge and try later.
I'm considering the slick start but it requires a different mag from Slick and a coupler which all together cost 2k.. Seems like a big price to pay for better start performance, but I'm considering it.
Does anyone have a proven solution?
TIA,
Jim Stone
Louisville Kentucky
HR 11




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