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bruceflys
Joined: 25 Nov 2014
Posts: 7
Location: Ocala, FL
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 Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:33 am Post subject: Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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NTSB reports are not admissible in court. The plaintiff will pay "expert witnesses" to support her case while the defendants will hire other experts to refute them.
But beyond the possible builder error cause of the accident, the case could turn on the defendants "failure to warn" a novice builder not to use RTV as a fuel line sealant. Section 5 of the manual only forbids fuel lube and Teflon tape. Yes we have all seen the superfluous warnings on products that seem so obvious, but they are a defense against these kinds of claims
Preparation and a full trial could cost each side up to $100,000. Rather than spend those sums, and risk a lay jury's verdict, the defendants' insurance companies often settle for a few hundred thousand dollars. That could be the strategy here.
| n520tx(at)gmail.com wrote: | Attached the NTSB report images. Pictures worth thousands of words.
On 10/20/2015 10:51 AM, John Trollinger wrote:
| Quote: | RTV I believe..
On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Shannon Hicks <civeng123(at)gmail.com
<mailto>> wrote:
Does anybody know what sealant he used?
Shannom
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:33 am Post subject: Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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Does Vans even carry insurance? Many small companies like this don't bother. Instead, they pay out most of the profits (dividends, salaries, etc) so the company itself is not worth anything like $30 million. Van may decide that he's had enough, hand them the keys to the building and walk away. Truely a sad state of affairs.
I'm pretty sure that I'm required to inform all passengers of the experimental nature of the airplane. I guess that's for those who cannot read. What's next? Reading the definition of 'experimental' from a dictionary?
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:12 pm Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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On 10/20/2015 2:33 PM, bruceflys wrote:
| Quote: |
NTSB reports are not admissible in court.
I did not know that.
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Can you direct me to where you found that???
Linn
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:17 pm Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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There is no return line for any RV built to plans, because all Lycoming engines that Vans sells have RSA injection which uses NO return line, never has. Only Continental fuel injection uses a true return line. Airflow Performance uses a purge line.
On 10/20/2015 9:48 AM, Miller John wrote:
[quote] | Quote: | Plumbing lines not in accordance with plans for my RV10 nor RV8. Where’s the return line?
Where would he get the idea that RTV is ok to use on fuel lines? That’s what flared AN fittings are for….only thing that should ever be used on the threads is fuel lube….
What a shame.
grumpy
| Quote: | On Oct 20, 2015, at 11:07 AM, Ron Walker <n520tx(at)gmail.com> (n520tx(at)gmail.com) wrote:
Attached the NTSB report images. Pictures worth thousands of words.
On 10/20/2015 10:51 AM, John Trollinger wrote:
| Quote: | RTV I believe..
On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Shannon Hicks <civeng123(at)gmail.com (civeng123(at)gmail.com)
<mailto:civeng123(at)gmail.com> (civeng123(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Does anybody know what sealant he used?
Shannom
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glastar(at)gmx.net
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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John did probably talk about the bypass line for the fuel filter?
This was a RV-10 with an carburetor not injection.
Werner
On 20.10.2015 22:13, Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: | There is no return line for any RV built to plans, ........
On 10/20/2015 9:48 AM, Miller John wrote:
> Plumbing lines not in accordance with plans for my RV10 nor RV8. Where’s the return line?
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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| flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com wrote: | On 10/20/2015 2:33 PM, bruceflys wrote:
| Quote: |
NTSB reports are not admissible in court.
I did not know that.
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Can you direct me to where you found that???
Linn |
I do not have a reference but I'm pretty sure this is correct. NTSB didn't want the cost of getting involved, so Congress specifically exempted their findings from being used in civil lawsuits. The lawyers have to duplicate the findings at their own expense (that is, the clients' expense).
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civengpe
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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"Section 5 of the manual only forbids fuel lube and Teflon tape."  Did I miss something? I just reread section 5 and did not see the prohibition of fuel lube. Page 37-3 of the plans states "...do not use Teflon tape. Use instead, fuel lube or equivalent pipe thread sealing paste."
Shannon
On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 1:33 PM, bruceflys <bruceflys(at)comcast.net (bruceflys(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "bruceflys" <bruceflys(at)comcast.net (bruceflys(at)comcast.net)>
NTSB reports are not admissible in court. The plaintiff will pay "expert witnesses" to support her case while the defendants will hire other experts to refute them.
But beyond the possible builder error cause of the accident, the case could turn on the defendants "failure to warn" a novice builder not to use RTV as a fuel line sealant. Section 5 of the manual only forbids fuel lube and Teflon tape. Yes we have all seen the superfluous warnings on products that seem so obvious, but they are a defense against these kinds of claims
Preparation and a full trial could cost each side up to $100,000. Rather than spend those sums, and risk a lay jury's verdict, the defendants' insurance companies often settle for a few hundred thousand dollars. That could be the strategy here.
n520tx(at)gmail.com wrote:
> Attached the NTSB report images. Pictures worth thousands of words.
>
> On 10/20/2015 10:51 AM, John Trollinger wrote:
>
> >Â RTV I believe..
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Shannon Hicks wrote:
> >
> >Â Â Â Does anybody know what sealant he used?
> >
> >Â Â Â Shannom
> >
> >
> >
>
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gengrumpy
Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 131
Location: Tullahoma, TN
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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Werner is correct, I was mistaken.
After looking at the plans again, there is a single drawing that depicts the setup shown in the NTSB report.
I should have reviewed the plans before commenting, not realizing that there was another pump and transducer setup that could be used.
My RV8 setup is the same as in my RV10, so I was only thinking of that installation.
And in looking at the NTSB pictures a bit closer, on those fittings with no flare to make the seal, use of fuel lube would have been the correct choice.
If you look closely at the RTV shown in the NTSB pictures, it appears that there was a “glob” that was the culpirt to block fuel from going through the Flow-Scan to the engine.
Replacing the Flow-Scan in the tunnel with the plane all put together is, as we all know, a very hard place to work in and could certainly lead to being a bit sloppy with whatever he used for thread sealant.
grumpy
| Quote: | On Oct 20, 2015, at 3:35 PM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> wrote:
John did probably talk about the bypass line for the fuel filter?
This was a RV-10 with an carburetor not injection.
Werner
On 20.10.2015 22:13, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> There is no return line for any RV built to plans, ........
>
> On 10/20/2015 9:48 AM, Miller John wrote:
>> Plumbing lines not in accordance with plans for my RV10 nor RV8. Where’s the return line?
|
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bruceflys
Joined: 25 Nov 2014
Posts: 7
Location: Ocala, FL
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:02 am Post subject: Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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From my manual's Section 5 dated 9/24/13:
Two sealants popular for use on aircraft are Tite-seal and Permatex #2. Teflon based pipe dopes and sealants, and some of the anaerobic thread sealants are also used by some builders with success. Do not use Fuel Lube. It is not a sealant. It is meant for lubricating moving parts in fuel valves, etc. Teflon tape is also not recommended. Small pieces of this tape may be cut by the threads, become loose, and cause all kinds of problems in aircraft systems. Teflon tape has even been the cause of engine stoppages.
That applies for lawsuits. I saw the contradiction you pointed out in Section 37 during my build. I have used fuel lube, now EZ Turn, on fuel line NPT fittings for many years with good results. For high pressure lines, such as brakes, a conventional sealant is a better choice.
[quote="civengpe"]"Section 5 of the manual only forbids fuel lube and Teflon tape."  Did I miss something? I just reread section 5 and did not see the prohibition of fuel lube. Page 37-3 of the plans states "...do not use Teflon tape. Use instead, fuel lube or equivalent pipe thread sealing paste."
Shannon
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:06 am Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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I use Seal Lube. It works great.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Oct 21, 2015, at 8:02 AM, bruceflys <bruceflys(at)comcast.net> wrote:
> From my manual's Section 5 dated 9/24/13:
Two sealants popular for use on aircraft are Tite-seal and Permatex #2. Teflon based pipe dopes and sealants, and some of the anaerobic thread sealants are also used by some builders with success. Do not use Fuel Lube. It is not a sealant. It is meant for lubricating moving parts in fuel valves, etc. Teflon tape is also not recommended. Small pieces of this tape may be cut by the threads, become loose, and cause all kinds of problems in aircraft systems. Teflon tape has even been the cause of engine stoppages.
That applies for lawsuits. I saw the contradiction you pointed out in Section 37 during my build. I have used fuel lube, now EZ Turn, on fuel line NPT fittings for many years with good results. For high pressure lines, such as brakes, a conventional sealant is a better choice.
[quote="civengpe"]"Section 5 of the manual only forbids fuel lube and Teflon tape." Did I miss something? I just reread section 5 and did not see the prohibition of fuel lube. Page 37-3 of the plans states "...do not use Teflon tape. Use instead, fuel lube or equivalent pipe thread sealing paste."
Shannon
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Read this topic online here:
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civengpe
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:50 am Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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There must have been some changes made to section 5 between my version (2003) and this one. If someone has the most recent version in PDF I would really like to get a copy.Â
Thanks,
Shannon
On Wednesday, October 21, 2015, bruceflys <bruceflys(at)comcast.net (bruceflys(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "bruceflys" <[url=javascript:;]bruceflys(at)comcast.net[/url]>
>From my manual's Section 5 dated 9/24/13:
 Two sealants popular for use on aircraft are Tite-seal and Permatex #2. Teflon based pipe dopes and sealants, and some of the anaerobic thread sealants are also used by some builders with success. Do not use Fuel Lube. It is not a sealant. It is meant for lubricating moving parts in fuel valves, etc. Teflon tape is also not recommended. Small pieces of this tape may be cut by the threads, become loose, and cause all kinds of problems in aircraft systems. Teflon tape has even been the cause of engine stoppages.
That applies for lawsuits. I saw the contradiction you pointed out in Section 37 during my build. I have used fuel lube, now EZ Turn, on fuel line NPT fittings for many years with good results. For high pressure lines, such as brakes, a conventional sealant is a better choice.
[quote="civengpe"]"Section 5 of the manual only forbids fuel lube and Teflon tape."  Did I miss something? I just reread section 5 and did not see the prohibition of fuel lube. Page 37-3 of the plans states "...do not use Teflon tape. Use instead, fuel lube or equivalent pipe thread sealing paste."
Shannon
--------
RV-10 UC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448150#448150
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:13 am Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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To get the most recent section 5, I'd suggest getting it from
Van's. They have it under revisions, and it was updated during
the RV-14 kit.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/service-rv14.htm
I still have my original copy from 2005 or earlier, but,
this one is much better, and was revised 6/12/15.
Tim
On 10/21/2015 8:46 AM, Shannon Hicks wrote:
| Quote: | There must have been some changes made to section 5 between my version
(2003) and this one. If someone has the most recent version in PDF I
would really like to get a copy.
Thanks,
Shannon
|
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:58 am Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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New section 5 by itself is available at
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/revisions/RV-ALL_Section-5.pdf
On 10/21/2015 7:10 AM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
To get the most recent section 5, I'd suggest getting it from
Van's. They have it under revisions, and it was updated during
the RV-14 kit.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/service-rv14.htm
I still have my original copy from 2005 or earlier, but,
this one is much better, and was revised 6/12/15.
Tim
On 10/21/2015 8:46 AM, Shannon Hicks wrote:
> There must have been some changes made to section 5 between my version
> (2003) and this one. If someone has the most recent version in PDF I
> would really like to get a copy.
>
> Thanks,
> Shannon
>
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civengpe
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:00 am Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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Thanks Tim. On Oct 21, 2015 09:17, "Tim Olson" <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
To get the most recent section 5, I'd suggest getting it from
Van's. They have it under revisions, and it was updated during
the RV-14 kit.
http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/service-rv14.htm
I still have my original copy from 2005 or earlier, but,
this one is much better, and was revised 6/12/15.
Tim
On 10/21/2015 8:46 AM, Shannon Hicks wrote:
| Quote: | There must have been some changes made to section 5 between my version
(2003) and this one. If someone has the most recent version in PDF I
would really like to get a copy.
Thanks,
Shannon
|
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:25 am Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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Thanks Kelly .... much improved over my section 5. Now all Vans has to
do is get people to read it!!!!
I've seen a lot of 'crap' on airplanes over the years, and I'm still
amazed at the 'Here's a better idea.' and 'If a little is good, more
must be better.' mentality. When I was a baby pilot building a BD-5 my
mentor gave me a dog-eared copy of AC 43-13 ..... and it's in much worse
shape now. That ought to be 'required reading' for any builder. It
sure would have saved many lives over the years.
Linn
On 10/21/2015 10:54 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
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rv10pro(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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I will gladly attend the trial and post developments. I am certain it will not be an Oregon Aviation Judge as Justice Charles SAMS, former USAF Brig. Gen has already passed away and all of my pilot attorney friends s are either retired, practicing and not serving as judges. Negligence is the issue. Who was negligent? This attorney Clarke has Certificated production aircraft under part 23 confused with Experimental Build Kit Aircraft built for the Education of the Walter Mitty builder. Must be on Cessna/Piper & Cirrus Chinese payroll.
Builder error, Operator error.... Oh hell just throw the net wherever the money is hiding. It sure isn't most RV-10 builders.
I believe Mike Van Hoomisen is Van's Aircraft attorney (also AOPA) and a thoroughly good aviation attorney. He has helped several friends out of spots who I have directed to him. However one settlement nearly shut down Airflow Performance and a family business when it was economically expedient for one defendant to pay up and close the litigation.  $35,000,000 is a large number. What is that Oregon bumper sticker "Keep Portland Weird". Here we go again. It is just business as usual. And who carefully supervised and consulted on the build? How would a bypass fuel line help when it too flows the RTV sealant (that was used - incorrectly) to its ultimate stop? Oh that's right "Just Build it" and of course VANS must have directed the build and sold the RTV for that contributing fuel line installation. Got Ya!
Tragic for all.
John Cox
On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:22 AM, Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com (flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com)>
Thanks Kelly .... much improved over my section 5. Now all Vans has to do is get people to read it!!!!
I've seen a lot of 'crap' on airplanes over the years, and I'm still amazed at the 'Here's a better idea.' and 'If a little is good, more must be better.' mentality. When I was a baby pilot building a BD-5 my mentor gave me a dog-eared copy of AC 43-13 ..... and it's in much worse shape now. That ought to be 'required reading' for any builder. It sure would have saved many lives over the years.
Linn
On 10/21/2015 10:54 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
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AirMike
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:05 am Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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Remember what William Shakespeare said.
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Hugo
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Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:32 am Post subject: Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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For those nice persons in these (still ) beautiful country who trying to make the Lawyers disappear ,please remember .
Millions years ago the life in this planet start as a Amoeba
Few thousands years ago they mutate and became lawyers in the Greek congress ,and in the Roman Empire.(both not longer exist)
In modern times they dictate the laws,determine what progress can be done
Or make a nice company disappear
HOW WE THINKS WE CAN BE FREE OF THAT SPECIES of PARASITES
My two cents
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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Lawyer-bashing is easy, and kind of fun, but let's not forget that every crazy award was handed out by 'a jury of our peers'.
As Pogo famously said, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Returning sanity to the legal process is both simple and hard.
Simple: allow defendants the right to insist on a bench trial.
Hard: that would take a constitutional amendment.
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Bob Turner
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: $35M Lawsuit was Re: NTSB - Probable Cause |
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I queried the AYA Safety Director .... knowledgeable in many aviation
matters and here's answer:
One comment was that NTSB accident investigation data is not admissible
in court. Is this true?
[Levy] Sort of. Factual information gathered by NTSB investigators is admissible. Conclusions based on that information are not -- the jury draws its own conclusions.
Should be a slam-dunk with those pictures. But the lawyers still come out on top.
Linn
On 10/20/2015 4:39 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com wrote:
> On 10/20/2015 2:33 PM, bruceflys wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> NTSB reports are not admissible in court.
>> I did not know that.
>>
> Can you direct me to where you found that???
> Linn
I do not have a reference but I'm pretty sure this is correct. NTSB didn't want the cost of getting involved, so Congress specifically exempted their findings from being used in civil lawsuits. The lawyers have to duplicate the findings at their own expense (that is, the clients' expense).
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448141#448141
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