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dlm34077

Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 115
Location: AZ

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:47 am Post subject: transition

Transition training can be accomplished, gratis, by a CFI who owns or has built his 10; I have done several where a simple checkout flight (1-2 hours) is required. The trick is to ask your/his insurance company to cover the special flights. My insurance has approved these on a case by case basis. I proposed a waiver to the feds but the response that “I could not sign a high performance or complex endorsement for the trainee because the higher HP and controllable propeller could be accomplished in a certified aircraft”, was not acceptable. Rather than respond emotionally I dropped the matter.  

      	 		 			 				 			 		 		 			

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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 883
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:37 am Post subject: Re: transition

The key word, as far as the FAA is concerned, is "gratis". Most of the FAR prohibitions are "...may not, for compensation or hire,...". So as long as there is no compensation for yourself or the airplane, you're okay with the FAA. Now, dealing with your insurance company is another matter. Some will ammend your coverage to allow instruction, on a case by case basis, as you have indicated. But some will not. My current insurer will not. Mostly, they didn't want the paperwork cost and hassle. And their rates reflect that cost savings.

The FAA will issue you a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA), allowing you to give instruction for hire in your EAB airplane. But it will be restricted to transition training only. As you indicated, anything that can be done in a certified aircraft (Flight Review, High Performance endorsements, etc) are explicitly not allowed. Even though in the course of transition training you might accomplish all tasks required for a Flight Review you may not sign it off. I agree this is a harsh interpretation.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:07 am Post subject: transition

One piece of this interests me.

Bob, maybe you know the answer.



Suppose my daughter does her private training in my RV14 and RV10.  She flies them both with me now and can complete full flights without me touching anything.  What does an instructor do about the high performance sign off?  Can they sign you off in YOUR RV, even though its experimental?  It would suck to have to have her go fly a 182 that is a completely different animal just to get HP signed off when she's all done.  The RV14 is 210HP and the -10 you already know.

Tim



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 19, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

 

 

 

 The key word, as far as the FAA is concerned, is "gratis". Most of the FAR prohibitions are "...may not, for compensation or hire,...". So as long as there is no compensation for yourself or the airplane, you're okay with the FAA. Now, dealing with your insurance company is another matter. Some will ammend your coverage to allow instruction, on a case by case basis, as you have indicated. But some will not. My current insurer will not. Mostly, they didn't want the paperwork cost and hassle. And their rates reflect that cost savings.

 The FAA will issue you a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA), allowing you to give instruction for hire in your EAB airplane. But it will be restricted to transition training only. As you indicated, anything that can be done in a certified aircraft (Flight Review, High Performance endorsements, etc) are explicitly not allowed. Even though in the course of transition training you might accomplish all tasks required for a Flight Review you may not sign it off. I agree this is a harsh interpretation.

 

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461463#461463

flyboy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:21 am Post subject: transition

The FAA will not let you utilize an experimental aircraft for hire.Â  There's no prohibition against doing any sort of training in any experimental aircraft (including all signoffs), so as long as you're not also offering the aircraft for hire.Â  You can hire an instructor to fly in your aircraft for any training, and an instructor can provide any sort of training (including all signoffs) in his/her own aircraft as long as (s)he's doing so without compensation.

Now, Insurance is a totally different question.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

 One piece of this interests me.

 Bob, maybe you know the answer.

 Suppose my daughter does her private training in my RV14 and RV10.Â  She flies them both with me now and can complete full flights without me touching anything.Â  What does an instructor do about the high performance sign off?Â  Can they sign you off in YOUR RV, even though its experimental?Â  It would suck to have to have her go fly a 182 that is a completely different animal just to get HP signed off when she's all done.Â  The RV14 is 210HP and the -10 you already know.

 Tim

 > On Oct 19, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

 >

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

 >

 > The key word, as far as the FAA is concerned, is "gratis". Most of the FAR prohibitions are "...may not, for compensation or hire,..". So as long as there is no compensation for yourself or the airplane, you're okay with the FAA. Now, dealing with your insurance company is another matter. Some will ammend your coverage to allow instruction, on a case by case basis, as you have indicated. But some will not. My current insurer will not. Mostly, they didn't want the paperwork cost and hassle. And their rates reflect that cost savings.

 > The FAA will issue you a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA), allowing you to give instruction for hire in your EAB airplane. But it will be restricted to transition training only. As you indicated, anything that can be done in a certified aircraft (Flight Review, High Performance endorsements, etc) are explicitly not allowed. Even though in the course of transition training you might accomplish all tasks required for a Flight Review you may not sign it off. I agree this is a harsh interpretation.

 >

 > --------

 > Bob Turner

 > RV-10 QB

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461463#461463

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

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dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:23 am Post subject: Re: transition

Agree with Bob Turner. My insurance company will not allow instruction on a case-by-case basis, either. Buying a years worth of insurance for a handful of transition training customers a year simply doesn't work financially. One minor thing in Bob's post is the "no compensation for yourself  or the airplane" statement. I believe a CFI is allowed to accept compensation, as a CFI, just not allowed to accept compensation for the airplane unless you have the LODA. I have heard of CFI RV owners who simply charged a very high rate for their service as a CFI, and included the use of the airplane at no charge. I imagine if there was an accident or incident, the FAA might take a dim view of this, not to mention your insurance company. Restrictions on providing anything other than transition training, ie. Flight Review, Instrument Competency Check, High Performance Endorsement, etc., are clearly not permitted in the LODA. Does not make sense to me either, but that's the way it is.

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:23 am Post subject: Re: transition

 	  Tim Olson wrote: 	
		  One piece of this interests me.

Bob, maybe you know the answer.



Suppose my daughter does her private training in my RV14 and RV10.  She flies them both with me now and can complete full flights without me touching anything.  What does an instructor do about the high performance sign off?  Can they sign you off in YOUR RV, even though its experimental?  It would suck to have to have her go fly a 182 that is a completely different animal just to get HP signed off when she's all done.  The RV14 is 210HP and the -10 you already know.

Tim



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 19, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner> wrote:

 

 

 

 The key word, as far as the FAA is concerned, is "gratis". Most of the FAR prohibitions are "...may not, for compensation or hire,...". So as long as there is no compensation for yourself or the airplane, you're okay with the FAA. Now, dealing with your insurance company is another matter. Some will ammend your coverage to allow instruction, on a case by case basis, as you have indicated. But some will not. My current insurer will not. Mostly, they didn't want the paperwork cost and hassle. And their rates reflect that cost savings.

 The FAA will issue you a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA), allowing you to give instruction for hire in your EAB airplane. But it will be restricted to transition training only. As you indicated, anything that can be done in a certified aircraft (Flight Review, High Performance endorsements, etc) are explicitly not allowed. Even though in the course of transition training you might accomplish all tasks required for a Flight Review you may not sign it off. I agree this is a harsh interpretation.

 

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461463#461463

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



	
	




Tim, I checked in to finishing Mary's Private in our RV-10 a few years ago. It was doable from an insurance perspective, but the cost was going to be huge. We determined that it made more sense to get her finished in a 172, since she had already soloed in one, and then transition her to the -10 once she had a license. The high cost of insurance was based on having a student pilot solo the RV-10. I am pretty sure if a CFI is giving primary instruction in a privately owned RV-10, where there is no charge for the airplane involved, the CFI would be free to put the endorsement for High Performance in the student pilots logbook. The prohibition we have been talking about is only for holders of the LODA that are providing transition training in their aircraft and charging for the use of the aircraft.

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 883
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:45 am Post subject: Re: transition

Dave - Yes, I should have made clear that I meant my reply to be to the previous post, where the CFI provides the EAB airplane. FAR 91.319 is pretty clear - but can always be argued, I guess - that EAB aircraft cannot be used for compensation or hire. If a person is getting paid for flight instruction in an EAB aircraft that he provided "for free", then the plane is in fact being used for compensation - it's furthering his flight instruction business. The FAA, I'm sure, takes a dim view of this sham. As would the insurance company.

But if someone else provides the airplane for no compensation - either because he is an owner, or is a really good friend, or as in Tim, a parent who does not charge his daughter- then there are no FAR restrictions on paying a cfi in that airplane, nor on the type of instruction, sign-offs, etc.

Tim - As others have said, there are no restrictions on paying a cfi to give any type of instruction in your airplane(s), assuming you do not charge your daughter for its use. Note that when it comes to the private flight test, the FAA allows its designated examiners to decline flying in EAB aircraft, at their option. Some will, some won't.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:51 am Post subject: transition

That's what I was thinking as well, Berck.

If you are in YOUR airplane, you can hire an instructor to teach

you and to sign you off for anything.  Because you are the

airplane owner.  When the instructor or someone else owns

the airplane then things change a lot.



Regarding the insurance for training in the RV, the only

thing I see as a problem is that the instructors will

either have to meet the open pilot qualifications, or

be named insured.  In my opinion I'd rather have them

named insured either way.  This may require them to get

some time in the RV first.  In my RV14, you'd be

required to have 25 hours in an RV, plus I think it was

500 hours total time.  So I may have to fly with the

instructor for a few hours first to get them RV Time.



Tim



On 10/19/2016 1:20 PM, Berck E. Nash wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The FAA will not let you utilize an experimental aircraft for hire.

 There's no prohibition against doing any sort of training in any

 experimental aircraft (including all signoffs), so as long as you're not

 also offering the aircraft for hire.  You can hire an instructor to fly

 in your aircraft for any training, and an instructor can provide any

 sort of training (including all signoffs) in his/her own aircraft as

 long as (s)he's doing so without compensation.



 Now, Insurance is a totally different question.

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:57 am Post subject: transition

Thanks David,



Yeah, I originally built the RV-14 partially with the intent to have a

lower hull value plane to put my daughters on for training.

It sounds like I'll pay a higher premium for sure, but it doesn't

sound like it's going to add much for me anymore, considering

I just added Andrea on both planes this summer.  They indicated

at the time that adding the daughter won't add much more additional

now.  My biggest issue is probably going to be getting the

instructor enough RV time to meet the insurance requirements,

unless they allow me to cut it to 5 hours or something by

being named insured.



I'm glad that I no longer need transition training though,

considering the apparent market situation these days for it.



And I may as well add the reply to Bob's recent post

too....thanks Bob.  Yeah, that's my final headache for

2018...finding a designated examiner who will do the

checkride in an EAB.   I'll just have to find one that will

be willing.  Worst case, the poor kid has to spend some time

in a 150. That would suck, given how much nicer these planes

are...and, she can fly it wonderfully now.  16 in May so

no solo until then...but by that time, she'll even be

doing her own aerobatics and spins.



Tim

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Tim, I checked in to finishing Mary's Private in our RV-10 a few

 years ago. It was doable from an insurance perspective, but the cost

 was going to be huge. We determined that it made more sense to get

 her finished in a 172, since she had already soloed in one, and then

 transition her to the -10 once she had a license. The high cost of

 insurance was based on having a student pilot solo the RV-10. I am

 pretty sure if a CFI is giving primary instruction in a privately

 owned RV-10, where there is no charge for the airplane involved, the

 CFI would be free to put the endorsement for High Performance in the

 student pilots logbook. The prohibition we have been talking about is

 only for holders of the LODA that are providing transition training

 in their aircraft and charging for the use of the aircraft.



 -------- David Maib RV-10 #40559 New Smyrna Beach, FL

gengrumpy

Joined: 07 May 2013
Posts: 131
Location: Tullahoma, TN

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: transition

My CFI rules knowledge are a little foggy here in the Mediterranean, but take a look at the rules for complex sign off.

Doesnâ€™t say a word about certified or notâ€¦.horsepower, prop and/or retract gearâ€¦.

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 19, 2016, at 9:07 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:

 One piece of this interests me.

 Bob, maybe you know the answer.

 Suppose my daughter does her private training in my RV14 and RV10.  She flies them both with me now and can complete full flights without me touching anything.  What does an instructor do about the high performance sign off?  Can they sign you off in YOUR RV, even though its experimental?  It would suck to have to have her go fly a 182 that is a completely different animal just to get HP signed off when she's all done.  The RV14 is 210HP and the -10 you already know.

 Tim

> On Oct 19, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> The key word, as far as the FAA is concerned, is "gratis". Most of the FAR prohibitions are "...may not, for compensation or hire,...". So as long as there is no compensation for yourself or the airplane, you're okay with the FAA. Now, dealing with your insurance company is another matter. Some will ammend your coverage to allow instruction, on a case by case basis, as you have indicated. But some will not. My current insurer will not. Mostly, they didn't want the paperwork cost and hassle. And their rates reflect that cost savings.

> The FAA will issue you a Letter of Deviation Authority (LODA), allowing you to give instruction for hire in your EAB airplane. But it will be restricted to transition training only. As you indicated, anything that can be done in a certified aircraft (Flight Review, High Performance endorsements, etc) are explicitly not allowed. Even though in the course of transition training you might accomplish all tasks required for a Flight Review you may not sign it off. I agree this is a harsh interpretation.

> 

> --------

> Bob Turner

> RV-10 QB

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461463#461463

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 883
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: transition

Tim,

As David said, the real insurance cost is likely not to be for a cfi; it will be to insure your daughter for solo flight.



BTW, no person with any assets to lose would, if in his right mind, fly under an open pilot clause. He has no protection.



Edit: I see we're playing 'phone tag'!

I know a good examiner here in Northern Cal who will fly in RVs. If she wants to do a real x/c trip!

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Last edited by Bob Turner on Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 883
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: transition

 	  gengrumpy wrote: 	
		  My CFI rules knowledge are a little foggy here in the Mediterranean, but take a look at the rules for complex sign off.



Doesnâ€™t say a word about certified or notâ€¦.horsepower, prop and/or retract gearâ€¦.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

 



	
	




The thread became 'mixed topics'. The issue was that cfi's instructing in their own planes, for compensation under an FAA issued LODA, are not allowed to do these sign offs. If instructing for hire in the 'student's' airplane there are no issues.

BTW, "complex" = CS prop, flaps, retractable landing gear. Does not apply to RVs.

"high performance" = over 200 HP. Does apply to RV-10 and -14.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: transition

Hmmm



Just for giggles I thought I'd comment on the high performance / complex rules in Canada. In Canada it is wing loading that determines whether or not the a/c is high performance. Although I did transition training with David Maib a while back, I didn't need the HP sign off for Canada. 



Interesting. 



Les

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 883
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: transition

Tim,

Ever consider getting your com/cfi? You'd have to rent an RG for some of it, but, given your daughter needs 20 hrs dual, the net cost might not be that great.

Bob

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:00 pm Post subject: transition

I actually am entertaining that thought right now. Curious as to how quick I could make it happen.  If I could be done by the end of the year or for sure by spring it may just work.  Could save me a lot of headaches too.  The kid flies real well.  Would love to help her get it done.



Tim



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 20, 2016, at 11:47 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

 

 

 

 Tim,

 Ever consider getting your com/cfi? You'd have to rent an RG for some of it, but, given your daughter needs 20 hrs dual, the net cost might not be that great.

 Bob

 

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461500#461500

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:31 am Post subject: transition

There's been a notice of proposed rule making that, if accepted, would likely get rid of the requirement for the retract.  An aircraft with a PFD and MFD would qualify as complex.  

Don't know the timeline of when t would be accepted, but most of our fleet would qualify. 

Anyone know when a decision is expected?

Phil

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 20, 2016, at 11:59 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:

 I actually am entertaining that thought right now. Curious as to how quick I could make it happen.  If I could be done by the end of the year or for sure by spring it may just work.  Could save me a lot of headaches too.  The kid flies real well.  Would love to help her get it done.

 Tim

> On Oct 20, 2016, at 11:47 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Tim,

> Ever consider getting your com/cfi? You'd have to rent an RG for some of it, but, given your daughter needs 20 hrs dual, the net cost might not be that great.

> Bob

> 

> --------

> Bob Turner

> RV-10 QB

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461500#461500

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:44 am Post subject: transition

Hadn't seen that. You currently can get a two fer or a three fer if you go for a single engine sea with a plane that has retractable water rudders, and possibly over 200 hp. Yes, being able to retract water rudders does qualify for complex if the plane has constant speed and flaps. A C180 on floats could meet all three needs. The rating would also substitute for flight review, complex and hp endorsements.

When I got my commercial there was the requirement for complex, but no HP endorsement existed, so flight schools mostly had Arrows, Cardinal RGs, a few Mooneys. Now a 182RG would let one get HP, complex at same time. 

Personally, I think allowing glass panel to substitute for complex misses the point. There is nothing about viewing a glass panel that adds any skill. Where would they draw the line? There is a huge difference between a G1000 aircraft (complex only in Garmin's menu structure) and a Grand Rapids or Dynon glass panel. Would 2 screens be required, or just one that you can split? Consider the Dynon Skyview or AFS units that allow display of six pack or EFIS at any time. Does IFR certification of the GPS make the plane complex or the ability to input a flight plan? Is IFR even considered as part of the proposal?

-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 4:31 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)>

 There's been a notice of proposed rule making that, if accepted, would likely get rid of the requirement for the retract.Â  An aircraft with a PFD and MFD would qualify as complex.

 Don't know the timeline of when t would be accepted, but most of our fleet would qualify.

 Anyone know when a decision is expected?

 Phil

 Sent from my iPhone

 > On Oct 20, 2016, at 11:59 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:

 >

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

 >

 > I actually am entertaining that thought right now. Curious as to how quick I could make it happen.Â  If I could be done by the end of the year or for sure by spring it may just work.Â  Could save me a lot of headaches too.Â  The kid flies real well.Â  Would love to help her get it done.

 >

 > Tim

 >

 >> On Oct 20, 2016, at 11:47 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

 >>

 >> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

 >>

 >> Tim,

 >> Ever consider getting your com/cfi? You'd have to rent an RG for some of it, but, given your daughter needs 20 hrs dual, the net cost might not be that great.

 >> Bob

 >>

 >> --------

 >> Bob Turner

 >> RV-10 QB

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >> Read this topic online here:

 >>

 >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461500#461500

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 883
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:30 am Post subject: Re: transition

Kelly, I think there's a little confusion in your post. HP and complex are endorsements given by a cfi. If going for a new rating, e.g. single engine sea, you are expected to show up for the flight test already having the endorsement (if required).

I too am from the old days. But you have it backwards. 20 years ago there was no complex endorsement, only a high performance one. The latter applied to both over 200 HP and/or RG aircraft. You only needed one endorsement. So I got endorsed flying a 182, and was then go to go in an RG. Around 1995 when the rules changed, I was grandfathered in, so I have never gotten a complex endorsement although I may fly RG aircraft.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

philperry9

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:14 am Post subject: transition

Here's the article on the NPRM..

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/may/12/proposed-part-61-changes-would-benefit-ga

Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 21, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>



Kelly, I think there's a little confusion in your post. HP and complex are endorsements given by a cfi. If going for a new rating, e.g. single engine sea, you are expected to show up for the flight test already having the endorsement (if required).

I too am from the old days. But you have it backwards. 20 years ago there was no complex endorsement, only a high performance one. The latter applied to both over 200 HP and/or RG aircraft. You only needed one endorsement. So I got endorsed flying a 182, and was then go to go in an RG. Around 1995 when the rules changed, I was grandfathered in, so I have never gotten a complex endorsement although I may fly RG aircraft.



--------

Bob Turner

RV-10 QB





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Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:40 am Post subject: transition

Here's the actual NPRM:Â https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FAA-2016-6142-0001



The part of the proposal regarding complex aircraft is to allow the 10 hours of "complex time" currently required of commercial pilot applicants to be acquired, instead, in a TAA (glass cockpit).Â  If implemented as proposed, it would change nothing about the endorsements required to fly complex or high performance aircraft, just to those to get a commercial certificate.Â  The idea is that if you're training to become a commercial pilot, time in a 1970's 172RG is probably not as beneficial as time in a modern aircraft.Â  I suspect a big part of the motivation is the fact that so many modern, high performance aircraft are now fixed gear, and maintaining a fleet of 172 RGs (what most flight schools use for "complex" training) is a bit of a silly burden.

I think it's all a bit silly.Â  Little of the training I did to acquire my ratings and little of the thousands of hours I spent flying around as an instructor in a single engine aircraft did much to prepare me to fly jets for the airlines.Â  The fact that I'd spent a few dozen hours in an airplane that required me to flip the gear lever after takeoff and before landing certainly didn't do much to prepare me.Â  And, yes, it might have been nice to have seen a glass cockpit at some point in my career before the CRJ simulator, but learning to read the glass was easy. Learning to think at 10 miles per minute was the hard part, but fortunately, the airlines (with serious FAA oversight) did a pretty good job of preparing me for that.

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com (philperry9(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Here's the article on the NPRM..

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/may/12/proposed-part-61-changes-would-benefit-ga

Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 21, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>



Kelly, I think there's a little confusion in your post. HP and complex are endorsements given by a cfi. If going for a new rating, e.g. single engine sea, you are expected to show up for the flight test already having the endorsement (if required).

I too am from the old days. But you have it backwards. 20 years ago there was no complex endorsement, only a high performance one. The latter applied to both over 200 HP and/or RG aircraft. You only needed one endorsement. So I got endorsed flying a 182, and was then go to go in an RG. Around 1995 when the rules changed, I was grandfathered in, so I have never gotten a complex endorsement although I may fly RG aircraft.



--------

Bob Turner

RV-10 QB





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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461507#461507



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