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Hot alternator

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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:13 am Post subject: Hot alternator

Good morning guys



I am still doing the electrical installation of my bird, and sometimes I turn on the Master Switch to check if everything is working well with the last installed critter.



This time, after finishing the wiring of an electronic Carbon Monoxide detector, I turned On the Master (together with the Main Alt field) to check if the CO alarm 2-colour Led would lit as advertised, first a blinking green and after 2 minutes the steady green.

All went well, except that I forgot to turn Off the Master (and Alt field), and they kept On for perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, while I was working on the Engine baffles...



Then, I noticed that the Main Alternator was really hot to the touch, which reminded me to turn Off the Master switch.



Long story to ask the question: is this normal? If the Master switch (and the Alt field switch) is On for some time, even with the engine Off, the Alt gets that hot?



Why?



Carlos



P.S. - perhaps you'll need some more information about my electric system architecture...

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:40 am Post subject: Hot alternator

It is normal for an older internally regulated 40 amp nippondenso. They 

aren't "smart enough" to sense rotation so they draw a couple of amps 

into the field coil when stopped and get noticeably warm.

Ken



On 08/01/2017 6:08 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Good morning guys



 I am still doing the electrical installation of my bird, and sometimes I turn on the Master Switch to check if everything is working well with the last installed critter.



 This time, after finishing the wiring of an electronic Carbon Monoxide detector, I turned On the Master (together with the Main Alt field) to check if the CO alarm 2-colour Led would lit as advertised, first a blinking green and after 2 minutes the steady green.

 All went well, except that I forgot to turn Off the Master (and Alt field), and they kept On for perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, while I was working on the Engine baffles...



 Then, I noticed that the Main Alternator was really hot to the touch, which reminded me to turn Off the Master switch.



 Long story to ask the question: is this normal? If the Master switch (and the Alt field switch) is On for some time, even with the engine Off, the Alt gets that hot?



 Why?



 Carlos



 P.S. - perhaps you'll need some more information about my electric system architecture...

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:03 am Post subject: Hot alternator

Ken



Mine is also internally regulated but is an all new PlanePower 60A



CT 



Enviado do meu iPhone



No dia 08/01/2017, às 12:37, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com> escreveu:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 It is normal for an older internally regulated 40 amp nippondenso. They aren't "smart enough" to sense rotation so they draw a couple of amps into the field coil when stopped and get noticeably warm.

 Ken

 

> On 08/01/2017 6:08 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:

> 

> 

> Good morning guys

> 

> I am still doing the electrical installation of my bird, and sometimes I turn on the Master Switch to check if everything is working well with the last installed critter.

> 

> This time, after finishing the wiring of an electronic Carbon Monoxide detector, I turned On the Master (together with the Main Alt field) to check if the CO alarm 2-colour Led would lit as advertised, first a blinking green and after 2 minutes the steady green.

> All went well, except that I forgot to turn Off the Master (and Alt field), and they kept On for perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, while I was working on the Engine baffles...

> 

> Then, I noticed that the Main Alternator was really hot to the touch, which reminded me to turn Off the Master switch.

> 

> Long story to ask the question: is this normal? If the Master switch (and the Alt field switch) is On for some time, even with the engine Off, the Alt gets that hot?

> 

> Why?

> 

> Carlos

> 

> P.S. - perhaps you'll need some more information about my electric system architecture...

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

Dave Saylor

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 210
Location: GILROY, CA

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:39 am Post subject: Hot alternator

My PlanePower has been hot enough to leave a blister.   After some cursing, I got in the habit of pulling the field breaker if I have the battery on for any length of time.



The regulator is trying in vain to raise the output voltage.  I assume it runs as much current as it can through the field, but of course it gets no results.



--Dave





On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 5:57 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

 

 Ken

 

 Mine is also internally regulated but is an all new PlanePower 60A

 

 CT

 

 Enviado do meu iPhone

 

 No dia 08/01/2017, às 12:37, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> escreveu:

 

 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 > It is normal for an older internally regulated 40 amp nippondenso. They aren't "smart enough" to sense rotation so they draw a couple of amps into the field coil when stopped and get noticeably warm.

 > Ken

 >

 >> On 08/01/2017 6:08 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:

 >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

 >>

 >> Good morning guys

 >>

 >> I am still doing the electrical installation of my bird, and sometimes I turn on the Master Switch to check if everything is working well with the last installed critter.

 >>

 >> This time, after finishing the wiring of an electronic Carbon Monoxide detector, I turned On the Master (together with the Main Alt field) to check if the CO alarm 2-colour Led would lit as advertised, first a blinking green and after 2 minutes the steady green.

 >> All went well, except that I forgot to turn Off the Master (and Alt field), and they kept On for perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, while I was working on the Engine baffles...

 >>

 >> Then, I noticed that the Main Alternator was really hot to the touch, which reminded me to turn Off the Master switch.

 >>

 >> Long story to ask the question: is this normal? If the Master switch (and the Alt field switch) is On for some time, even with the engine Off, the Alt gets that hot?

 >>

 >> Why?

 >>

 >> Carlos

 >>

 >> P.S. - perhaps you'll need some more information about my electric system architecture...

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 ====================================

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 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

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 WIKI -

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 ====================================

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 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

_________________
--Dave
KWVI

alec(at)alecmyers.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: Hot alternator

And there's no cooling airflow (does it have a shaft mounted fan? That's not turning)



On Jan 8, 2017, at 9:36 AM, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com (saylor.dave(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  My PlanePower has been hot enough to leave a blister.   After some cursing, I got in the habit of pulling the field breaker if I have the battery on for any length of time.



The regulator is trying in vain to raise the output voltage.  I assume it runs as much current as it can through the field, but of course it gets no results.



--Dave





On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 5:57 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

 

 Ken

 

 Mine is also internally regulated but is an all new PlanePower 60A

 

 CT

 

 Enviado do meu iPhone

 

 No dia 08/01/2017, às 12:37, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> escreveu:

 

 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 > It is normal for an older internally regulated 40 amp nippondenso. They aren't "smart enough" to sense rotation so they draw a couple of amps into the field coil when stopped and get noticeably warm.

 > Ken

 >

 >> On 08/01/2017 6:08 AM, Carlos Trigo wrote:

 >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>

 >>

 >> Good morning guys

 >>

 >> I am still doing the electrical installation of my bird, and sometimes I turn on the Master Switch to check if everything is working well with the last installed critter.

 >>

 >> This time, after finishing the wiring of an electronic Carbon Monoxide detector, I turned On the Master (together with the Main Alt field) to check if the CO alarm 2-colour Led would lit as advertised, first a blinking green and after 2 minutes the steady green.

 >> All went well, except that I forgot to turn Off the Master (and Alt field), and they kept On for perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, while I was working on the Engine baffles...

 >>

 >> Then, I noticed that the Main Alternator was really hot to the touch, which reminded me to turn Off the Master switch.

 >>

 >> Long story to ask the question: is this normal? If the Master switch (and the Alt field switch) is On for some time, even with the engine Off, the Alt gets that hot?

 >>

 >> Why?

 >>

 >> Carlos

 >>

 >> P.S. - perhaps you'll need some more information about my electric system architecture...

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 ====================================

  -

 Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:30 pm Post subject: Hot alternator

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Then, I noticed that the Main Alternator was really hot to the touch, which reminded me to turn Off the Master switch.



 Long story to ask the question: is this normal? If the Master switch (and the Alt field switch) is On for some time, even with the engine Off, the Alt gets that hot? 	


   Yes . . . this is quite normal. while the alternator

   is not rotating, battery-only bus voltage is so low

   that the regulator is full-fielding the alternator.

   Depending on the altenator, this can be as much as 3.5

   amps at 12 volts for 42 watts of heat being generated

   inside with no place to go.



   This is why ALL of my architecture drawings show

   either a three position DC power master for

   OFF/BATT/ALT+BATT  -or- a two-pole OFF/ON with

   a PULLABLE breaker associated with the crowbar

   ov protection system.



   It is a design goal to have independent control

   over the alternator during battery only operations.

   The non rotating alternator not only gets hot, it

   consumes energy from teh battery that would otherwise

   be available for ground test operations -or- battery

   only operations while airborne.



 

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:53 pm Post subject: Hot alternator

At 07:57 AM 1/8/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt>



 Ken



 Mine is also internally regulated but is an all new PlanePower 60A 	


   Many, if not MOST internally regulated alternators

   are fitted with a stator phase sense connection to the

   regulator chip.



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



   This signal tells the regulator whether or not

   the alternator is rotating so as to prevent

   full-fielding of the alternator is a quiescent

   state.



   No such provisions are available for most

   externally regulated alternators. Waaay back when,

   automotive alternators had a "AUX" teerminal

   that power the field control relay inside the

   regulator. This too effected field current shutdown

   while not rotating. 



   Future regulators from our drafting table will be

   micro-controller based and will feature a full field

   limit timer that will prevent such events during ground

   testing or alternator failure while airborne.



   In the mean time, a pullable field breaker



 

 [img]cid:.1[/img]

   . . . or three position DC PWR MASTER

   are recommended.



 [img]cid:.2[/img]



 

 

   Bob . . .

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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:08 am Post subject: Hot alternator

That means that if I had the Alt field off, i.e only the Master switch On, the Alternator would not have got hot... right?

I do have a split Master switch / Alt Field switch.

Thanks

Carlos



Enviado do meu iPhone



No dia 09/01/2017, às 04:51, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> escreveu:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 07:57 AM 1/8/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>



 Ken



 Mine is also internally regulated but is an all new PlanePower 60A 	


   Many, if not MOST internally regulated alternators

   are fitted with a stator phase sense connection to the

   regulator chip.



 <323e6d5.jpg>



   This signal tells the regulator whether or not

   the alternator is rotating so as to prevent

   full-fielding of the alternator is a quiescent

   state.



   No such provisions are available for most

   externally regulated alternators. Waaay back when,

   automotive alternators had a "AUX" teerminal

   that power the field control relay inside the

   regulator. This too effected field current shutdown

   while not rotating. 



   Future regulators from our drafting table will be

   micro-controller based and will feature a full field

   limit timer that will prevent such events during ground

   testing or alternator failure while airborne.



   In the mean time, a pullable field breaker



 

 <323e723.jpg>

   . . . or three position DC PWR MASTER

   are recommended.



 <323e742.jpg>



 

 

   Bob . . .

Dave Saylor

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 210
Location: GILROY, CA

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:48 pm Post subject: Hot alternator

Yep, that's right.  I just pull the field breaker.  My alternator comes on with the battery.  I don't have a separate position for alternator + battery.



-Dave

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  That means that if I had the Alt field off, i.e only the Master switch On, the Alternator would not have got hot... right?

I do have a split Master switch / Alt Field switch.

Thanks

Carlos



Enviado do meu iPhone



No dia 09/01/2017, às 04:51, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> escreveu:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 07:57 AM 1/8/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)>



 Ken



 Mine is also internally regulated but is an all new PlanePower 60A 	


   Many, if not MOST internally regulated alternators

   are fitted with a stator phase sense connection to the

   regulator chip.



 <323e6d5.jpg>



   This signal tells the regulator whether or not

   the alternator is rotating so as to prevent

   full-fielding of the alternator is a quiescent

   state.



   No such provisions are available for most

   externally regulated alternators. Waaay back when,

   automotive alternators had a "AUX" teerminal

   that power the field control relay inside the

   regulator. This too effected field current shutdown

   while not rotating. 



   Future regulators from our drafting table will be

   micro-controller based and will feature a full field

   limit timer that will prevent such events during ground

   testing or alternator failure while airborne.



   In the mean time, a pullable field breaker



 

 <323e723.jpg>

   . . . or three position DC PWR MASTER

   are recommended.



 <323e742.jpg>



 

 

   Bob . . .

_________________
--Dave
KWVI

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:20 am Post subject: Hot alternator

At 11:02 AM 1/9/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  That means that if I had the Alt field off, i.e only the Master switch On, the Alternator would not have got hot... right?



 I do have a split Master switch / Alt Field switch. 	


   Is your alternator internally or externally

   regulated?



 

 

   Bob . . .

trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:42 am Post subject: Hot alternator

Bob

It is internally regulated 60A Plane Power, which has built-in crowbar OV protection.

CT



Enviado do meu iPhone

No dia 10/01/2017, às 00:21, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> escreveu:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 11:02 AM 1/9/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  That means that if I had the Alt field off, i.e only the Master switch On, the Alternator would not have got hot... right?



 I do have a split Master switch / Alt Field switch. 	


   Is your alternator internally or externally

   regulated?



 

 

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:43 am Post subject: Hot alternator

At 07:36 AM 1/10/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob



 It is internally regulated 60A Plane Power, which has built-in crowbar OV protection. 	


   Okay, it is my understanding that P-P brings field supply

   lead out for ABSOLUTE alternator control. Hence, leaving

   the alternator side of your split rocker OFF should relieve

   the battery of an unnecessary load during ground ops . . .

   and leave your alternator cool.



 

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:41 am Post subject: Hot alternator

At 09:45 PM 1/9/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Yep, that's right.  I just pull the field breaker.  My alternator comes on with the battery.  I don't have a separate position for alternator + battery. 	




   Works good . . . lasts a long time.



 

   Bob . . .

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