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Tailplane attach

 
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riveteddragon(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.

1)  I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?
2)  On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on.  (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.)  Is something not done right?  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?
3)  Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?  Anyone got pictures of this?
Thanks!
Steven DeFord
925-596-0246 (cell)
RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)


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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 797
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

#3 is the easy one. Inside, immediately route the tubing up, and join left and right sides in a T fitting as high up in the tail one as possible. This will minimize water ingestion problems.

#2. My memory is that It wasn't easy to spin the nut/little panel on. Involved some bending of the cable and/or undoing the other end to gain some slack, I'm no longer sure what I did.

#1. My memory is that there was some allowed range for full elevator travel, not just one number? Ask Vans. I've seen some installations where the stick hits the panel, and the builder just said "I never need that much nose down elevator" Not saying that's right, but ask Vans what the minimum down angle is. PS I presume "in trail" was zero?


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rene(at)felker.com
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

For number 2.  I pulled it off and riveted it……fast and easy.

Rene'
801-721-6080

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 3:03 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Tailplane attach

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.


1) I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual. I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required. It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan. The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support). Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?



2) On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on. (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.) Is something not done right? Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?



3) Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it? Anyone got pictures of this?



Thanks!

Steven DeFord

925-596-0246 (cell)

RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)


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rene(at)felker.com
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

Number 1.  I filed some of it away……

Rene'
801-721-6080

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 3:03 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Tailplane attach

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.


1) I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual. I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required. It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan. The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support). Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?



2) On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on. (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.) Is something not done right? Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?



3) Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it? Anyone got pictures of this?



Thanks!

Steven DeFord

925-596-0246 (cell)

RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2702

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

I see Bob replied well to your questions so I'll make mine short...

Regarding #1, if you're looking at down-elevator, and the horns are physically hitting the stops,
and you're within a couple degrees, I wouldn't sweat it too much.  You'll never find the need
to go farther than what you have if your nose down hits those stops.  I would say this
with a little more confidence because you said your up elevator is within a degree or so of the
requirements....so your plane must be built pretty much right in line with the expected
travels. If you had vast differences in both ends, I'd think maybe the weldment was
not correct, but in your case I'd say go with it as it is.  If you're within a couple degrees
you'll be just fine.  Before your first flight, maybe have another RV guy look over all
your controls with you just as a second check...preferably an RV-10 guy.

Tim


On 3/14/2017 4:02 PM, Steven DeFord wrote:

Quote:
So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.

1)  I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual.  I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required.  It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan.  The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support).  Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?


2)  On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on.  (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.)  Is something not done right?  Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?


3)  Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it?  Anyone got pictures of this?


Thanks!
Steven DeFord
925-596-0246 (cell)
RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)



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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

1) I would recommend that you file as much as you can without going beyond edge distance requirements on the rivets and see how much that gives you.
2) Unscrew the 4 screws holding the plate under the HS attachment deck. That will allow you to pull the cable out far enough to screw on the plate. Then do the same on the other side.

3) Many different ways over the years. Usually attached to the bulkhead with zipties to where the two sides meet and T off, then with edge grommet through the lightening holes forward to conduit running under the rear seat and baggage floor and then to the side panels forward.
Jesse SaintSaint Aviation, Inc.jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)C: 352-427-0285F: 815-377-3694
Quote:
On Mar 14, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com (riveteddragon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.
1) I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual. I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required. It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan. The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support). Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?

2) On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on. (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.) Is something not done right? Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?

3) Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it? Anyone got pictures of this?

Thanks!
Steven DeFord
925-596-0246 (cell)
RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)




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aerosport1



Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

Steve I think 35 degrees of down is way to much. I believe the recommended amount of down is somewhere between 19 to 23 for
Down elevator.

Geoff

Sent from my iPhoneGeoff Combs
Aerosport Modeling & Design
On Mar 14, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com (riveteddragon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.

1) I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual. I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required. It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan. The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support). Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?
2) On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on. (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.) Is something not done right? Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?
3) Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it? Anyone got pictures of this?
Thanks!
Steven DeFord
925-596-0246 (cell)
RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)




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Geoff Combs
RV-10 QB N829GW
Flying 500 hrs
40033
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jrlark



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

Steve, #1, I filed a bit to get the proper deflection.  During my final  inspection the MDRA inspector (Canada) wanted to know what the angle was supposed to be, to which he measured it to ensure it was per design specifications.
#2 as others have said, keep working the cable, it should eventually fit.
#3 again as other said, route both static sources up and “T” it off to the front from there.
Good luck
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord
Sent: March 14, 2017 4:03 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Tailplane attach


So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.


1) I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual. I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required. It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan. The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support). Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?



2) On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on. (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.) Is something not done right? Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?



3) Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it? Anyone got pictures of this?



Thanks!

Steven DeFord

925-596-0246 (cell)

RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)


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Lenny Iszak



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

I just posted this image via email but it looks like it never made it to the list.
The Elevator tab at 35 degrees down is the elevator trim tab they are talking about not the elevator itself.


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final_inspection_limits.png
 Description:
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final_inspection_limits.png



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Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
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Lenny Iszak



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

Here are the limits:

[img]cid:BE4809C0-7B6B-4CA4-A359-C4132C5245C8[/img]
Lenny
Quote:
On Mar 14, 2017, at 7:33 PM, g.combs <g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com (g.combs(at)aerosportmodeling.com)> wrote:Steve I think 35 degrees of down is way to much. I believe the recommended amount of down is somewhere between 19 to 23 for Down elevator. GeoffSent from my iPhoneGeoff CombsAerosport Modeling & DesignOn Mar 14, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com (riveteddragon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.1) I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual. I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required. It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan. The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support). Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?2) On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on. (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.) Is something not done right? Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?3) Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it? Anyone got pictures of this?Thanks!Steven DeFord925-596-0246 (cell)RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com


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final_inspection_limits.png
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final_inspection_limits.png



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Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

My takes.


#1 - Geoff sounds right about 35 deg. That sounds like way too much and I don't have my section 5 here to double check. But that doesn't seem right to me.
However, assuming its right, you mentioned that you had some extra up elevator and not enough down. I'd turn the elev pushrod bearings in a few more turns until your up elevator is within spec and then recheck your down. You might find that taking the extra off the top will give you enough on the bottom.
I'd also caution you to not invest much time in reaching this spec until you have the panel, switches, and push/pull cables, and sticks all installed. If they aren't installed, there's a good chance you're solving a problem that you're only good to have to solve again later down the road with different rigging and bent sticks.
#2 - Consider using screws to hold the base down. Just wind it on, then put the screws in with a small wrench to hold the nuts. You might even be able to use nut plates, but i used nuts and didn't have any issue getting them in there.
#3 - Brought the pilot side port around the bulkhead and T'd into the Pax side port. Then brought the T'd line forward through the baggage bulkhead with a snap bushing. Was sure to move the hole in the bulkhead far enough outboard so it didn't interfere with the bulkhead covers. Also far enough outboard to slip underneath the cover panel. I have Geoff's interior panels and they cover that area directly above the longeron that you're staring at when you open the baggage door. The line is slipped behind that and basically follows the longeron forward (except as needed to route through a few holes along the way.)
Phil

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 14, 2017, at 4:44 PM, Rene <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:
Quote:
<![endif]--> <![endif]-->
For number 2. I pulled it off and riveted it……fast and easy.

Rene'
801-721-6080

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 3:03 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Tailplane attach

So, I've run into a couple hiccups on attaching the tailplane/trim/etc.


1) I've installed the HS as described, but the elevator horns hit the forward stop a few degrees before the 35 deg down-elevator specified in the manual. I have a degree or so more up-elevator travel than required. It's almost as though the HS/elevators are too far forward relative to the whole in the rear deck, but I've checked, and it's all according to plan. The plans say I can file off some of the forward stop until it fits, but that looks like some significant filing, to the point that it'd be almost up to the heads of the universal rivets holding it on (and thus, in violation of proper engineering specs for rivet support). Anyone have this problem, or advice to solve it?



2) On a possibly related note, I can't wind on the elevator nut to the elevator trim push-pull cable on the starboard side-- it doesn't stick out far enough to spin the little panel on. (You'll recall that the port push-pull cable is the one that's about an inch forward on the trim servo install bracket.) Is something not done right? Should I drill out the pop rivets used to install the welded nut onto the elevator close out panel, wind it onto the push pull cable, and then re-rivet?



3) Random question-- where did you guys route your static source tubing from the tail/how did you mount it? Anyone got pictures of this?



Thanks!

Steven DeFord

925-596-0246 (cell)

RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com (RivetedDragon(at)gmail.com)



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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2702

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:35 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

Ah sure. For the trim tab you will for sure want good travel for tab down to ensure you have full up-elevator travel and trim.
Tim

Quote:
On Mar 14, 2017, at 9:07 PM, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:



I just posted this image via email but it looks like it never made it to the list.
The Elevator tab at 35 degrees down is the elevator trim tab they are talking about not the elevator itself.

--------
Lenny
N311LZ




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467317#467317




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riveteddragon(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

Thank you-- I hadn't seen that page yet!

Steve

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Mar 14, 2017, at 19:07, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:



I just posted this image via email but it looks like it never made it to the list.
The Elevator tab at 35 degrees down is the elevator trim tab they are talking about not the elevator itself.

--------
Lenny
N311LZ




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467317#467317




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Lenny Iszak



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Tailplane attach Reply with quote

riveteddragon(at)gmail.co wrote:
Thank you-- I hadn't seen that page yet!

Steve

Sent from my iPhone


You're welcome! BTW in older kits that elevator trim nut used to have a crappy weld on it. At the time i was working on mine (2008) there was an aftermarket part available machined out of aluminum. Van's later fixed theirs. I attached mine with #6 screws and locknuts, like Phil suggested.


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Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
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