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Ignition
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Albert Gardner



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 413
Location: Yuma, AZ

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

At about 900 hobbs on my RV-10 I began experiencing random misfirings on
both my Lightspeed and slick ignition systems. Klaus recommends replacing
the LSE wires at 500 hours and I replaced the slick harness soon after. Both
systems are running smoothly now at 1100+ hours.
Albert Gardner
RV-10 N991RV
Yuma, AZ
PS: I had the wheel pants off for repainting and made what used to be a 4.3
hour flight that took almost 6. Same on return but we had a little TW. Lots
more gas, some at $5.59.


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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 749
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Ignition Reply with quote

Albert Gardner wrote:

PS: I had the wheel pants off for repainting and made what used to be a 4.3
hour flight that took almost 6. Same on return but we had a little TW. Lots
more gas, some at $5.59.


Yep. I started phase one minus wheel and gear leg fairings (all 3 wheels) and was disappointed at the speeds. Once I put them all on, I gained 15 knots!
Back when I was a partner in a 182 we could barely tell the difference if they were on or off. I guess good (but not obvious) design does make a difference.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

Thanks for that Albert, I honestly didn't know about the recommendation to change the wires. I haven't had any issues but am over 800 hours now.

Marcus

Do not archive

Quote:
On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:18 PM, Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:



At about 900 hobbs on my RV-10 I began experiencing random misfirings on
both my Lightspeed and slick ignition systems. Klaus recommends replacing
the LSE wires at 500 hours and I replaced the slick harness soon after. Both
systems are running smoothly now at 1100+ hours.
Albert Gardner
RV-10 N991RV
Yuma, AZ
PS: I had the wheel pants off for repainting and made what used to be a 4.3
hour flight that took almost 6. Same on return but we had a little TW. Lots
more gas, some at $5.59.







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flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

Albert, Is that the only issue you have had with your LSE? Which model do you have?

Do not archive.

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Mar 15, 2017, at 6:18 PM, Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com> wrote:



At about 900 hobbs on my RV-10 I began experiencing random misfirings on
both my Lightspeed and slick ignition systems. Klaus recommends replacing
the LSE wires at 500 hours and I replaced the slick harness soon after. Both
systems are running smoothly now at 1100+ hours.
Albert Gardner
RV-10 N991RV
Yuma, AZ
PS: I had the wheel pants off for repainting and made what used to be a 4.3
hour flight that took almost 6. Same on return but we had a little TW. Lots
more gas, some at $5.59.







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Albert Gardner



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 413
Location: Yuma, AZ

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

I have the plasma 2+. Before I was aware that the leads should be replaced
at 500 hours, I was convinced that there might be a control unit problem but
replacing the leads cleared it up. I have had several coil failures but all
in all it has worked very well. I would do it again for sure. My Lightspeed
was originally installed by Performance Engines in LaVerna, CA when they
built my engine. Albert

Quote:
From Lightspeeds Manual:
500 hour Inspection

All Systems:
Replace high-tension leads at 500 hours or 10-year intervals.

--


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2608

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

Albert,

Question about your coil failures.
From what Klaus tells me, Coil failures used to be more common until he
switched to iridium plugs. Are you using those? Any additional
resistance in the wires or any very large gap can lead to coil failures.
I know when I ran my standard plugs 170-200 hours they developed a very
large gap, but that doesn't happen with the iridiums I've been using
for the past few years. Also, I did have one coil half fail, just this
November. That was the first coil issue I've had, and that was after
about 1230 hours. The first few hundred were with the old type plugs.
I didn't replace my wires until I had about 900 hours I think.
I replaced them not because of running issues, but because one of the
plug connectors had gotten too loose from repetitive maintenance and
wouldn't stay tightly secured...so I replaced all of the wires. Pretty
easy and convenient to do with bulk wire and the right crimper. Much
more satisfying than the way overpriced slick harnesses I replaced.

Tim

On 3/15/2017 10:23 PM, Albert wrote:
[quote]

I have the plasma 2+. Before I was aware that the leads should be replaced
at 500 hours, I was convinced that there might be a control unit problem but
replacing the leads cleared it up. I have had several coil failures but all
in all it has worked very well. I would do it again for sure. My Lightspeed
was originally installed by Performance Engines in LaVerna, CA when they
built my engine. Albert

>From Lightspeeds Manual:
500 hour Inspection
All Systems:
Replace high-tension leads at 500 hours or 10-year intervals.

--


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maca2790



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 34
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:54 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

G'day Albert,
I'm just wondering if Lightspeed or anyone else indicated what the
failure mode is for the Wiring?

cheers

John MacCallum
----


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rvdave



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: Ignition Reply with quote

...so I replaced all of the wires. Pretty easy and convenient to do with bulk wire and the right crimper...
Tim,
Where can you get the bulk wire, fittings, and crimper?


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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:12 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

I got mine from Summit Racing. You can get the cable (MSD as I recall), the boots, then they offer several types of crimpers. A cheap little tool that basically a block that crimps, or dies for your ratchet type of crumpet you probably used for terminal ends and coax, to dedicated crimpers.

I opted for the dies that fit in my ratchet set of crimpers. But also bought the cheap block to use in a pinch. I plan on keeping it in my tool bag and being able to rebuild a lead with parts from NAPA if needed.

Phil

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Mar 16, 2017, at 6:15 AM, rvdave <rv610dave(at)gmail.com> wrote:



...so I replaced all of the wires. Pretty easy and convenient to do with bulk wire and the right crimper...


Tim,
Where can you get the bulk wire, fittings, and crimper?

--------
Dave Ford
RV6 for sale
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467381#467381











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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1032
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

It does make you wonder. Aviation plug harnesses are generally good for engine TBO. Automotive wires on cars are usually good for at least 100,000 miles. Then there is the choice of pre-made harness vs making your own with cost of materials and tools and your time.

Kind of like, I poured my own concrete 13 cu/yd slab 35 yrs ago. Since then have always hired professionals for concrete work.
To drift the thread a bit...has anyone had problems with CHT rise after installing any brand electronic ignition? I understand some have much sharper advance curves than others.

A friend installed a 4 cyl electronic ignition on an RV-8 and saw a 50 degree rise in CHT, that make force him to remove the system.
-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 2:53 AM, John Maccallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com (john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: John Maccallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com (john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com)>

G'day Albert,
I'm just wondering if Lightspeed or anyone else indicated what the failure mode is for the Wiring?

cheers

John MacCallum
   


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2608

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:58 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

The wire I bought was this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-34019

The crimper I bought was this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-35051
I would really recommend that you for sure have the right crimper, so
unless you can get these dies for your existing crimper, just buy
the right one.

The terminals and boots I bought were these:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8852
Might be good to stock up on these because with some bulk wire you
can then be good for years.

I do think I cut some of the terminal boots off a little on
length on my RV-10, so just compare them to the ones that came
with the ignition and if they seem too long, use a razor knife and
shorten them a tiny bit. Otherwise, they are the same thing.

These are the wire separators:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8841
Very handy for making a neat installation.

The plugs to use on the RV-10 are these IK27 plugs: (I've
also used IK24's and they work great too)
https://www.amazon.com/Denso-IK27-Iridium-Power-Spark/dp/B000CIY4FM/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1489672354&sr=1-1&keywords=IK27+Denso

On the RV-140 with the IO-390 I needed the long reach plugs.
https://www.amazon.com/Denso-IKH27-Iridium-Power-Spark/dp/B000M6URAA
(Never forget the "H" on the IO-390)
The IO-540 uses ones without the H.

For coils, there are similar coils out there from Nology, but
you have to beware of them. It's very important to get the
proper ohm coil and the coil that Klaus uses is customized.
He does use a stock part number from the company that makes them
in Germany, but, the lug on them is female when they come from
the factory. He has the lugs made specially for his coils and
gets them pressed in somehow. So I would highly recommend
that you just get the coils from Klaus, and always keep one
as a spare.

On my RV-14 site I did do some photos of the wire install.
Nothing too spectacular. It looks like I never did do a write-up
on my wire replacement on the RV-10 or I would have posted all
of this there.

Tim

On 3/16/2017 6:15 AM, rvdave wrote:
Quote:


...so I replaced all of the wires. Pretty easy and convenient to do with bulk wire and the right crimper...
Tim,
Where can you get the bulk wire, fittings, and crimper?

--------
Dave Ford
RV6 for sale
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI



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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:50 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

Exactly correct. The wires and coils Klaus uses are automotive products. There is no reasonable "it just needs to be replaced at 500 hours" logic. How often do you replace the coils and wires on your car?
This rings of my rule #3, "when something does not sound right it is strong indication that you just don't have the whole story". Just like when I had my first hard in flight Lightspeed failure and calling Klaus he said "ok, just cut out a capacitor on the board and you will be fine". I choose to send in the box. From this exchange I gathered my 30 seconds on the phone telling Klaus the ignition breaker popped and would not reset he knew exactly what happened. What followed was Klaus doing an "upgrade" that would fix things. It did not, but it cost me a pile of cash to find out.
When I pulled my two Lightspeed off the RV-8A I gave them to another Lightspeed RV guy as spares. He soon scraped his Lightspeeds and replaced with pMags.
Not that I have any strong opinion on the subject.....
WRT CHT, before you blame the ignitions make sure you really did the timing right. If you are running pMags do a data run with the timing jumper in and then out to compare.
Most (if not all) ignitions mimic the same 25 degrees BTDC (or 20 degrees for the 200hp IO-360 or 210hp IO-390) at full power as do stock mags. †As such, if you are seeing high CHTs under full power, I'd first look at timing. After that perhaps induction leaks.
I find the main advantage of pMags over mags, besides much easier maintenance and not using those grossly overpriced spark plugs is that the advance timing when at LOP cruise really makes the engine sing. The pMags do a nice job starting the burn earlier for this lean charge so that you get all the fuel used.
Carl

On Mar 16, 2017, at 9:40 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
It does make you wonder. Aviation plug harnesses are generally good for engine TBO. Automotive wires on cars are usually good for at least 100,000 miles. Then there is the choice of pre-made harness vs making your own with cost of materials and tools and your time.

Kind of like, I poured my own concrete 13 cu/yd slab 35 yrs ago. Since then have always hired professionals for concrete work.
To drift the thread a bit...has anyone had problems with CHT rise after installing any brand electronic ignition? I understand some have much sharper advance curves than others.

A friend installed a 4 cyl electronic ignition on an RV-8 and saw a 50 degree rise in CHT, that make force him to remove the system.
-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 2:53 AM, John Maccallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com (john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: John Maccallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com (john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com)>

G'day Albert,
I'm just wondering if Lightspeed or anyone else indicated what the failure mode is for the Wiring?

cheers

John MacCallum





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Albert Gardner



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 413
Location: Yuma, AZ

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:56 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

Hey John, how's flying down under? Really don't know why Klaus recommends replacement but once I did, most of my problems went away. Wish I had done that first. Albert

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EdKranz



Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Hastings, MN

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

Just to confirm, Klaus is recommending replacing the spark plug wires at 500 hours, not the wires connecting the control box to the coils, right?

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com (ibspud(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert" <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com (ibspud(at)roadrunner.com)>

Hey John, how's flying down under? Really don't know why Klaus recommends replacement  but once I did, most of my problems went away. Wish I had done that first. Albert

--


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partner14



Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 508
Location: Granite Bay, California

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

Right. Those are low voltage. Sometimes when you have what you have, and others have had bad experiences with the same, you tend to just keep quiet and wait for possibly a better product. But so far with Klaus's LSIII, I've lost 2 coils, and have replaced the ignition wires once. It has worked pretty much flawlessly, no engine start issues, cold or hot, and great power (also at LOP). Over 900 hours, and would never put a traditional mag on my engine based on all the issues I hear about them.
Also haven't lost a coil in 3 years since I put together a 12volt fan, mounted in foam, which within 2 minutes from engine shutdown can be inserted and running inside my left cowl inlet.
Sorry for all of you that have had problems, but no one here at Pecan has had any.
Don McDonald
0tx1
ps. Summit racing is a great place to get lots of stuff.
From: Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: Ignition


Just to confirm, Klaus is recommending replacing the spark plug wires at 500 hours, not the wires connecting the control box to the coils, right?

On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com (ibspud(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert" <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com (ibspud(at)roadrunner.com)>

Hey John, how's flying down under? Really don't know why Klaus recommends replacement but once I did, most of my problems went away. Wish I had done that first. Albert

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Albert Gardner



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 413
Location: Yuma, AZ

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

Yes, just the high tension wires only.

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Kranz
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 11:49 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Ignition


Just to confirm, Klaus is recommending replacing the spark plug wires at 500 hours, not the wires connecting the control box to the coils, right?


On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Albert <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com (ibspud(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Albert" <ibspud(at)roadrunner.com (ibspud(at)roadrunner.com)>

Hey John, how's flying down under? Really don't know why Klaus recommends replacement but once I did, most of my problems went away. Wish I had done that first. Albert

--


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2608

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

You're correct that he was referring to the red plug wires that
he likes to see replaced, because of the very high level
of energy that they carry. But, while the input wires are
definitely lowER voltage, they aren't really "low".
Per Klaus the coil input is made for ~500V input which
is actually approx 320V positive and 220V negative.

Whatever you do, don't just go and look up that PVL coil
part number and buy them somewhere else. His part number
is the same (and it's the same coil basically) as a PVL
coil, but, the ones sold elsewhere will have a female
socket on the coil. Klaus has the coils set up with machined
male lugs on them because the female connectors weren't
designed for the type of wires we use. So those are
modified by someone else for him. There is also a
company called Nology that uses a similar coil that
is available in male form, but it isn't of the same
omh-age as Klaus's coil. He has very tight specs for what
the ohm measurement is on the input side of the coil.
His price may be $10 or even $20 more than you would
pay for the coil from somewhere else, but it's definitely
worth going to him to get the exact proper coil.

Also, as I mentioned before, definitely go with iridium
plugs. I talked to him in January at length about the
coils and plugs and coil failures drastically dropped
off after switching to iridium.

Also, don't use random car plug wire. MAYBE in a
pinch you could do that, but he absolutely is adamant
that the MSD wire is really the only wire to use for
the energy levels of spark his system puts out.
Just buy a roll of 25' and you'll have enough for a
lot of years of flying.

Tim
On 3/16/2017 2:21 PM, Don McDonald wrote:
Quote:
Right. Those are low voltage. Sometimes when you have what you have,
and others have had bad experiences with the same, you tend to just keep
quiet and wait for possibly a better product. But so far with Klaus's
LSIII, I've lost 2 coils, and have replaced the ignition wires once. It
has worked pretty much flawlessly, no engine start issues, cold or hot,
and great power (also at LOP). Over 900 hours, and would never put a
traditional mag on my engine based on all the issues I hear about them.
Also haven't lost a coil in 3 years since I put together a 12volt fan,
mounted in foam, which within 2 minutes from engine shutdown can be
inserted and running inside my left cowl inlet.
Sorry for all of you that have had problems, but no one here at Pecan
has had any.
Don McDonald
0tx1
ps. Summit racing is a great place to get lots of stuff.



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cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

Tim,
†Thanks for the links. Given the rarity I'll probably need to crimp connectors on ignition wire, any problem with getting this tool instead and save almost $75?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-3503
Marcus
40286, 800+ hours


On Mar 16, 2017, at 9:57 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com (Tim(at)MyRV10.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com (Tim(at)MyRV10.com)>
The wire I bought was this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-34019

The crimper I bought was this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-35051
I would really recommend that you for sure have the right crimper, so
unless you can get these dies for your existing crimper, just buy
the right one.

The terminals and boots I bought were these:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8852
Might be good to stock up on these because with some bulk wire you
can then be good for years.

I do think I cut some of the terminal boots off a little on
length on my RV-10, so just compare them to the ones that came
with the ignition and if they seem too long, use a razor knife and
shorten them a tiny bit. Otherwise, they are the same thing.

These are the wire separators:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8841
Very handy for making a neat installation.

The plugs to use on the RV-10 are these IK27 plugs: (I've
also used IK24's and they work great too)
https://www.amazon.com/Denso-IK27-Iridium-Power-Spark/dp/B000CIY4FM/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1489672354&sr=1-1&keywords=IK27+Denso

On the RV-140 with the IO-390 I needed the long reach plugs.
https://www.amazon.com/Denso-IKH27-Iridium-Power-Spark/dp/B000M6URAA
(Never forget the "H" on the IO-390)
The IO-540 uses ones without the H.

For coils, there are similar coils out there from Nology, but
you have to beware of them. It's very important to get the
proper ohm coil and the coil that Klaus uses is customized.
He does use a stock part number from the company that makes them
in Germany, but, the lug on them is female when they come from
the factory. He has the lugs made specially for his coils and
gets them pressed in somehow. So I would highly recommend
that you just get the coils from Klaus, and always keep one
as a spare.

On my RV-14 site I did do some photos of the wire install.
Nothing too spectacular. It looks like I never did do a write-up
on my wire replacement on the RV-10 or I would have posted all
of this there.

Tim

On 3/16/2017 6:15 AM, rvdave wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "rvdave" <rv610dave(at)gmail.com (rv610dave(at)gmail.com)>

...so I replaced all of the wires. Pretty easy and convenient to do with bulk wire and the right crimper...
Tim,
Where can you get the bulk wire, fittings, and crimper?

--------
Dave Ford
RV6 for sale
RV10 building
Cadillac, MI
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:47 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

 "Over 900 hours, and would never put a traditional mag on my engine based on all the issues I hear about them."

That's a joke, right?  (no answer requested)

You guys do understand that threads like this scare the crap out of guys like me?

I'm always interested in the latest tech, especially if performance enhancement is part of it.  But reliability, availability and  serviceability (RAS) are high up on my priority list.  Seems like that's in place for electronic ignition IF one takes the time and assumes responsibility for staying on top of the manufacturer and the user community.  And that flexibility is why experimental work is so great. 

But RAS is certainly a characteristic of the old magneto technology.  They need to be maintained but the path to high RAS is well trodden and all that.

Seriously, this is a great thread!  I'm thinking about Iridium top plugs again and will consider a new, perhaps home fabbed ignition harness.

Bill 'doing a precautionary swap-out of my original Slicks for rebuilts at 800+ hours' Watson

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Posts: 1032
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:29 am    Post subject: Ignition Reply with quote

I really do wonder about such statements. I've only 1900 hours over 44 years flying behind single engine aircraft with magnetos.

Not one absolute failure, ever. A few rentals with some roughness. Slicks, Bendix, not huge difference.

Electronic ignitions have certain well defined advantages in economy, power, easy starting. Reliability is yet to be proven. Besides the Lightspeed discussed in this thread, I have seen an E-Mag/PMag setup have complete dual mag failure at less than 500 ft AGL after takeoff. I've had MSD ignition on a car totally fail. They are getting better, but they certainly do not have the millions of hours of flight that magnetos do, over 70+ years.

Coil and harness failures in less the 10 years/1000 hours....hmmm.
-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm

On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:46 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
Quote:
 "Over 900 hours, and would never put a traditional mag on my engine based on all the issues I hear about them."

That's a joke, right?  (no answer requested)

You guys do understand that threads like this scare the crap out of guys like me?
 



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