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phcpilot

Joined: 24 May 2016
Posts: 16

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:10 am Post subject: : VG's: VG's

Hello people.



Could someone help me understand the concept of the tail stalling and how it is recognized?  I've flown for many years in many different types (although not yet but soon in a Kolb) and admit I am confused.

When the wing stalls, the nose drops.  I have experienced this a few times. 



Apparently (and correctly since the tail's  functions is to provide a downward force) when the tail stalls, the nose drops.

How do I tell what the cause is of the nose drop?

Please help me to get this.



thanks



Peter

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:36 am Post subject: Re: : VG's: VG's

Try Google: "Tail Stall".   



From what (little) I understand, tail stalls are usually due to ice accumulation on the elevator.  Very hard pull in flaring for landing COULD cause a tail plane stall.  Any condition  that requires additional back pressure on the stick increases the likelihood of a tail stall.  For example, some airplanes pitch down when flaps are extended, requiring additional back pressure (or trim).  Extreme nose heavy condition (forward CG) will also increase this tendency.  I hear that a wing stall is felt as a buffet through the entire airplane, while buffeting through the yoke is indicative of a tail stall.



If tail stall is suspected, recover by DECREASING power, raising flaps and relaxing stick pressure.



On a Kolb, as long as you do a proper weight & balance calculation (weigh with YOU in the airplane) to insure that the CG is within allowable limits, a tail stall should never be a problem.



Jerry King

_________________
Jerry King

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: : VG's: VG's

Regardless of the size of the passengers I have carried in my MKIII, I have never had an instance of having the tail stall and the nose drop, so I'm not sure that "tail stall" is the best way to describe what happens in a Kolb. 



So let me just tell you the before and after of what does happen: in a MKIII Classic, (and maybe the Xtra too? I dunnoe) all the useful load is ahead of the CG. So when you add a passenger, you need up elevator trim. Or aft stick. Or both. So far, so good.



Now add in a bunch of flaps (and the MKIII has a BUNCH of flaps) and you have increased lift and drag, and also moved the center of lift further aft. The airplane is now effectively nose heavier. If you are a lad who has not missed many meals and you are taking Bubba for a ride, the tail is now working fairly hard to hold the nose up.



Here is a prime example of how this plays out in real life: solo, I shoot an approach on a calm day, 30 degrees of flaps, at 45 indicated. No problem, with VG's on the wing the stall comes at 28 indicated. I still have plenty of elevator control authority to flare, and even stick the tailwheel down first if I so wish. (I don't)



Now I put Bubba in there with me, or maybe even his little brother instead of Bubba, and I shoot an approach, under power, at 45 indicated. I am carrying 30 degrees of flaps. I am holding a certain amount of back stick, enough to keep the approach and sink rate constant. When I get down to about 2 feet off the strip, I pull back on the stick to flare, the elevators rise, and nothing happens.   I maintain the same angle of attack that I had before. The elevators have nothing more to contribute. 



Now I gap seal the elevators to the stab and add VG's to the under side of the stab. This allows me to shoot the approach with Bubba and flaps and still be able to flare.  Gap sealing the elevators to the stab and adding VG's to the underside of the horizontal stab allows the elevators to work a bit harder for a bit longer. 



Was the tail stalled w/o the gap seal and VG's? Probably not, it just wasn't able to be as effective.



Anyway, that has been my experience, and as Beauford (Boy, I miss him!) used to say; worth what ya paid fer it.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

phcpilot

Joined: 24 May 2016
Posts: 16

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: : VG's: VG's

Thanks Richard. That sounds reasonable.

Jerry I believe that icing on the tail thing was the only explanation I could locate last time I looked into this.



Richard, what engine do you have and did you just tape the elevator gap?

Peter

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: : VG's: VG's

The MKIII has a 582, B box, 2.58:1, 68" Ivoprop. 



I gap sealed the elevator to the stab with clear tape, be sure you put a narrow piece of tape on the wide tape down the middle to keep it from collecting dirt. And still plan to replace it every couple years; it gets nasty.



Details here: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Vortex%20Generators.html

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

lambdinwilliam(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:18 am Post subject: : VG's: VG's

Hey Guys,



My name is Lanny Lambdin and I have been monitoring the site for a while now. ( I



have a Challenger II that is hard for my wife to get in and out of - and as I get older,



same goes for me-so I have been thinking about the Kolb MIII as an easier ride)



Anyway, as I have read the concerns about the tail hitting first followed by the nose



dropping, I was reminded of my Loehle Sport Parasol flight characteristics.



It has a listed stall speed of about 30mph, but you can not land at that speed.



You can fly at 30 with lots of power and angle of attack, but it you try to land



in that configuration the tail wheel will hit first and then the nose will plop down



harder than you'd like.  Not sure if some may be experiencing something similar



in your Kolb..



Thanks for good conversation and info,



Lanny



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 2, 2017, at 9:09 AM, Peter Cowan <cowan.phc(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 Hello people.

 Could someone help me understand the concept of the tail stalling and how it is recognized?  I've flown for many years in many different types (although not yet but soon in a Kolb) and admit I am confused.

 

 When the wing stalls, the nose drops.  I have experienced this a few times. 

 Apparently (and correctly since the tail's  functions is to provide a downward force) when the tail stalls, the nose drops.

 

 How do I tell what the cause is of the nose drop?

 

 Please help me to get this.

 thanks

 Peter

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:06 am Post subject: Re: : VG's: VG's

[quote="lambdinwilliam(at)gmail.c"]Hey Guys, 

My name is Lanny Lambdin and I have been monitoring the site for a while now. ( I have a Challenger II that is hard for my wife to get in and out of - and as I get older, same goes for me-so I have been thinking about the Kolb MIII as an easier ride)



Anyway, as I have read the concerns about the tail hitting first followed by the nose dropping, I was reminded of my Loehle Sport Parasol flight characteristics.  It has a listed stall speed of about 30mph, but you can not land at that speed.  You can fly at 30 with lots of power and angle of attack, but it you try to land  in that configuration the tail wheel will hit first and then the nose will plop down  harder than you'd like.  Not sure if some may be experiencing something similar in your Kolb..



Thanks for good conversation and info,



Lanny



Sent from my iPad



[quote] 



With VG's on the wing, you can land tailwheel first, and the first few times you land with VG's, you might surprise yourself into doing it, I quit doing it years ago... didn't much care for it... but it is an option if you like that sort of thing.



Concerning your description of your wife trying to get  out of the Challenger: before I got the MKIII, we drove to North Carolina to visit a Challenger dealer to see one close up, and my wife eventually was able to get into it, and then the sale was lost. A round lady with both legs around the front seat, and 4 lift struts all in the wrong place for normal egress. The expression on the dealers face said it all, and then my friend who had gone with us stuck a fork in it when he said "You could go to fly-in's and sell tickets to people so they could watch her try and get out - you ought to have it paid off by next year."

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: : VG's: VG's

To all,   I guess the tail stall may be my ball of wax,  let me make one more stab at it..... 

I have described what I have experienced as tail stall.  With some  information received off list,  I will make another option available.  

When flying with a passenger, I could only generate enough down force to slow my mkiii to 15 to 20 MPH above the speed the wing stalls.  I've called this tail stall.   I guess to be able to defiantly call it tail stall I should tuft the bottom of the elevators.    Then there would be no question.     

The alternative possibly could be that the horizontal stabilizer and the elevators may not be stalling,   but it may be that the control surfaces may be too small to provide the down force necessary. 

Up untill the time I installed vgs I would have said that either explanation was plausible.   As soon as i installed the vgs on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer,,, I instantly had enough down force to hold the plane in a level attitude until the wing stalls.   That would indicate to me that the control surfaces were large enough.  The vgs have kept the air attached so that the elevators can work to their potential.    Had the vgs made no difference,  I would have decided that the control surfaces were too small. 

I spent some time at the computer and re did my w&b.  Cg limits per the plan are 25 to 35 percent of wing cord.   When experiencing insufficient down force,  my cg calculated to 26.66.    within the limits.    

My conclusion is that you eliminate tail stall, there are 3 ways that I have come up with,,, (maybe 4)     1. Install larger horizontals and elevators.    2.  Install vgs.    3.  Limit your passenger's weight.   4.  Add more physical weight to the tail.(thus applying more down force by gravity in lieu of aero dynamics) 

I understand that men are deep thinkers,  and maybe I have over thought this.    Larry stop laughing! 

Boyd

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: : VG's: VG's

Add a little airspeed when flying healthy passengers.

 

Last thing I would do is add weight to my airplane to counteract ineffective tail.  However, I have added plenty of weight to Miss P'fer for many other reasons.  

 

john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

 

 

 

 

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young

Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 11:02 AM

To: Kolb List

Subject: Re: : VG's: VG's



 

To all,   I guess the tail stall may be my ball of wax,  let me make one more stab at it.....

I have described what I have experienced as tail stall.  With some  information received off list,  I will make another option available. 

When flying with a passenger, I could only generate enough down force to slow my mkiii to 15 to 20 MPH above the speed the wing stalls.  I've called this tail stall.   I guess to be able to defiantly call it tail stall I should tuft the bottom of the elevators.    Then there would be no question.    

The alternative possibly could be that the horizontal stabilizer and the elevators may not be stalling,   but it may be that the control surfaces may be too small to provide the down force necessary.

Up untill the time I installed vgs I would have said that either explanation was plausible.   As soon as i installed the vgs on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer,,, I instantly had enough down force to hold the plane in a level attitude until the wing stalls.   That would indicate to me that the control surfaces were large enough.  The vgs have kept the air attached so that the elevators can work to their potential.    Had the vgs made no difference,  I would have decided that the control surfaces were too small.

I spent some time at the computer and re did my w&b.  Cg limits per the plan are 25 to 35 percent of wing cord.   When experiencing insufficient down force,  my cg calculated to 26.66.    within the limits.   

My conclusion is that you eliminate tail stall, there are 3 ways that I have come up with,,, (maybe 4)     1. Install larger horizontals and elevators.    2.  Install vgs.    3.  Limit your passenger's weight.   4.  Add more physical weight to the tail.(thus applying more down force by gravity in lieu of aero dynamics)

I understand that men are deep thinkers,  and maybe I have over thought this.    Larry stop laughing!

Boyd

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: : VG's: VG's

 """You can fly at 30 with lots of power and angle of attack, but it you try to land  in that configuration the tail wheel will hit first and then the nose will plop down  harder than you'd like.  Not sure if some may be experiencing something similar in your Kolb..'""" 

Yes I experienced this a lot when I first flew my mkiii.   I installed longer  landing gear,  went from 600/6/15 tires to 600/6,   then 800/6 tires..  each made an improvement.   The vgs give me more angle of attack when landing,   and the tail wheel  is easier to set down first again.   But the larger tires absorbed the bump better.

lambdinwilliam(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: : VG's: VG's

Yeah, that comment made for a certain no-deal!



Lanny



Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Apr 3, 2017, at 10:06 AM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 [quote="lambdinwilliam(at)gmail.c"]Hey Guys, 

 My name is Lanny Lambdin and I have been monitoring the site for a while now. ( I have a Challenger II that is hard for my wife to get in and out of - and as I get older, same goes for me-so I have been thinking about the Kolb MIII as an easier ride)

 

 Anyway, as I have read the concerns about the tail hitting first followed by the nose dropping, I was reminded of my Loehle Sport Parasol flight characteristics.  It has a listed stall speed of about 30mph, but you can not land at that speed.  You can fly at 30 with lots of power and angle of attack, but it you try to land  in that configuration the tail wheel will hit first and then the nose will plop down  harder than you'd like.  Not sure if some may be experiencing something similar in your Kolb..

 

 Thanks for good conversation and info,

 

 Lanny

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 With VG's on the wing, you can land tailwheel first, and the first few times you land with VG's, you might surprise yourself into doing it, I quit doing it years ago... didn't much care for it... but it is an option if you like that sort of thing.

 

 Concerning your description of your wife trying to get  out of the Challenger: before I got the MKIII, we drove to North Carolina to visit a Challenger dealer to see one close up, and my wife eventually was able to get into it, and then the sale was lost. A round lady with both legs around the front seat, and 4 lift struts all in the wrong place for normal egress. The expression on the dealers face said it all, and then my friend who had gone with us stuck a fork in it when he said "You could go to fly-in's and sell tickets to people so they could watch her try and get out - you ought to have it paid off by next year."

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467989#467989

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: : VG's: VG's

Hello group, 

I have been reading and learning about the topic of Tail Stall.. thank you all. 

I fly a MkIII Xtra and limit my passengers to 200Lbs or less,  because of the issue with losing elevator authority during flare. 



I did not think "Tail Stall" existed but maybe I am wrong.  Technically, if a stall is where the air separates from the surface of a wing (or tail) then perhaps that is what is happening when I have a heavy passenger. This passenger moves the CG forward and this weight shift is offset by the use of "Up" elevator.  

When landing and decreasing the airspeed the airflow over the elevator in a full "UP" position could separate from the underside of the elevator and that would explain why adding more back stick does nothing.. 



All the remedies support this theory:-

a/ Add a gap seal - keeps the airflow flowing from top of Horz.  Stab  to bottom of elevator

b/ Add VG's to bottom of Horz Stab - keep the air attached to the bottom of the elevator when the stick is full back thus making the elevator more effective

c/ Land faster - the faster airflow over the elevator increases authority with less back pressure, thus reducing airflow separation. 



d/ move the CG back.  Some aircraft have weight boxes in the tail so that CG is controlled by adding a small weight on a long lever,  effectively offsetting the passenger weight somewhat ,  reducing the workload on the elevator and making it more effective with smaller stick movements.  (I have not tried this but am thinking of moving one of my fuel tanks to a back position when flying passengers to see what happens. )



I usually land a little faster and it has not been a big deal,  but it is real.. 



Thanks again for making me think about it and visualize what may be happening in real life. 



In the end , understanding the effects and being ready makes one fly safer. 



Happy landings

FrankD

N1014S, MkIII Xtra

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:14 pm Post subject: : VG's: VG's

Only makes sense to land faster when your aircraft is heavier.  Stall speed

is higher when carrying a passenger, take off speed has to be increased.



With the engine at idle, full flaps, there is less air moving over the tail

and what is moving is being deflected downward from the flaps and away from

the tail.



The last few days of flying I have discovered, with my airplane, better

performance with 20 deg of flaps rather than 40 deg.  About the only

advantage of 40 deg is added deceleration and increased decent, which comes

in handy when required.



I've been flying this airplane for 25 years and just now come to that

conclusion.  Maybe the change in my mind is the addition of VGs.  I don't

know.



Giving a demo flight in my MKIII at Lakeland some years ago, I was able to

easily lose all elevator authority, almost without trying.  We were out

horsing around, I told my passenger, "Let's try a steep dive to about 85 mph

and a hard pull up with full flaps."  We had already done the same clean.

To my surprise, when I pulled back on the stick the aircraft continued

straight down until I pulled up the flaps and then back on the stick.  A

good demonstration of the flaps stealing air from the tail.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama



--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:28 pm Post subject: : VG's: VG's

Interesting conversation all..



    My problem is considering the tail as aerodynamic...on the Kolbs... 

I only see separation as the air hits the leading edge... certainly not 

an airfoil in the classical sense and definitely not laminar... More 

like a barn door...   A symmetrical airfoil is common on most 

planes...as in "not flat".  Seems to me that an all moving elevator 

would work and likely could be much smaller... and could still fold...



   Herb...who talked to an aerodynamicist once... ( he likely could not 

spell it either:-) )

On 04/03/2017 06:37 PM, Frankd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello group,

 I have been reading and learning about the topic of Tail Stall.. thank you all.

 I fly a MkIII Xtra and limit my passengers to 200Lbs or less,  because of the issue with losing elevator authority during flare.



 I did not think "Tail Stall" existed but maybe I am wrong.  Technically, if a stall is where the air separates from the surface of a wing (or tail) then perhaps that is what is happening when I have a heavy passenger. This passenger moves the CG forward and this weight shift is offset by the use of "Up" elevator.

 When landing and decreasing the airspeed the airflow over the elevator in a full "UP" position could separate from the underside of the elevator and that would explain why adding more back stick does nothing..



 All the remedies support this theory:-

 a/ Add a gap seal - keeps the airflow flowing from top of Horz.  Stab  to bottom of elevator

 b/ Add VG's to bottom of Horz Stab - keep the air attached to the bottom of the elevator when the stick is full back thus making the elevator more effective

 c/ Land faster - the faster airflow over the elevator increases authority with less back pressure, thus reducing airflow separation.



 d/ move the CG back.  Some aircraft have weight boxes in the tail so that CG is controlled by adding a small weight on a long lever,  effectively offsetting the passenger weight somewhat ,  reducing the workload on the elevator and making it more effective with smaller stick movements.  (I have not tried this but am thinking of moving one of my fuel tanks to a back position when flying passengers to see what happens. )



 I usually land a little faster and it has not been a big deal,  but it is real..



 Thanks again for making me think about it and visualize what may be happening in real life.



 In the end , understanding the effects and being ready makes one fly safer.



 Happy landings

 FrankD

 N1014S, MkIII Xtra





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468002#468002

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:15 pm Post subject: : VG's: VG's

Don't think we have an aircraft design problem, but "maybe" a piloting

problem.



If you are flying a MKIII and hauling a big ass passenger, modify your

piloting technique to compensate for the forward cg.



The basic design of the Kolb tail section has never changed, except small

differences in size.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:26 pm Post subject: : VG's: VG's

""If you are flying a MKIII and hauling a big ass passenger, modify your

 piloting technique to compensate for the forward cg.""

 

I found that to be correct,   when flying a passenger, I come over the fence  at 70.    Hit the numbers at 65   and maintain power till the wheels touch.  I'm going to have to practice more with the vg's,  but I'm sure changes are due. 

Boyd

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:30 pm Post subject: : VG's: VG's

Me neither John..My Kolbs flew just great...no complaints...Never had to 

use those wimpy stickums...!! 

On 04/03/2017 08:15 PM, John Hauck wrote:

[quote] 



 Don't think we have an aircraft design problem, but "maybe" a piloting

 problem.



 If you are flying a MKIII and hauling a big ass passenger, modify your

 piloting technique to compensate for the forward cg.



 The basic design of the Kolb tail section has never changed, except small

 differences in size.



 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama





 --

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:34 pm Post subject: : VG's: VG's

I flew only one passenger in my old MkIII...and he was pretty lite...so 

I added maybe 10 mph on approach...Herb

On 04/03/2017 08:25 PM, B Young wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 ""If you are flying a MKIII and hauling a big ass passenger, modify your

 piloting technique to compensate for the forward cg.""



 I found that to be correct,   when flying a passenger, I come over the 

 fence  at 70.    Hit the numbers at 65   and maintain power till the 

 wheels touch.  I'm going to have to practice more with the vg's,  but 

 I'm sure changes are due.



 Boyd

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: : VG's: VG's

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		   <snip>

Giving a demo flight in my MKIII at Lakeland some years ago, I was able to easily lose all elevator authority, almost without trying.  We were out

horsing around, I told my passenger, "Let's try a steep dive to about 85 mph and a hard pull up with full flaps."  We had already done the same clean.

To my surprise, when I pulled back on the stick the aircraft continued

straight down until I pulled up the flaps and then back on the stick.  A

good demonstration of the flaps stealing air from the tail.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

-- 	




I partially agree that the flaps do steal the airflow over the elevators, but I think an even bigger factor is that lowering the flaps moves the center of lift aft. We both know that lowering the flaps on a MKIII Classic requires cranking in substantial amounts of up elevator trim, even when solo. IMO, the effect of the flaps to move the center of lift/pressure aft is at least as significant as what the flaps do to the airflow over the horizontal tail. 



Unfortunately, it typically all comes together to conspire against us when we least desire it...

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:40 pm Post subject: : VG's: VG's

I tested a Mk IIIX to 1280 lb with cement bags in the passenger seat. With seals on the stabilizer to boom tube gap I could hold it in a stall for over 1000 feet and keep the wings level with the rudder. When I released the stick she started flying again. Landing at that weight was a bit like Pete Knight described flying the X15, "it's like milking a nervous mouse, you just don't want to make any sudden moves".



Rick Girard

On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com (herbgh(at)nctc.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com (herbgh(at)nctc.com)>

 

 I flew only one passenger in my old MkIII...and he was pretty lite...so I added maybe 10 mph on approach...Herb

 

 

 On 04/03/2017 08:25 PM, B Young wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 ""If you are flying a MKIII and hauling a big ass passenger, modify your

 piloting technique to compensate for the forward cg.""

 

 I found that to be correct,   when flying a passenger, I come over the fence  at 70.    Hit the numbers at 65   and maintain power till the wheels touch.  I'm going to have to practice more with the vg's,  but I'm sure changes are due.

 

 Boyd

 

 	
 

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