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3 questions on aileron authority

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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: 3 questions on aileron authority

Last night I completed the structural repairs to the two wing ribs we bent on Saturday. It was possible to replace the damaged upper rear tube "rib cap" sections, without removing the rest of the rib form the spar. Internal sleeves were fabricated to allow the replacement section to be spliced in structurally with two rivets, yielding a continuous rib cap from leading to trailing edge. I'm almost ready to recover the wingtip and am deciding whether to patch the aileron fabric or recover the entire aileron.



I have a few questions I want to ask the experienced Kolb owners... Jimmy and I are desperately trying to identify the root cause of the control problem we had. 



1) Have any of you experienced a situation where the aileron controls have X amount of friction (or control authority) in one direction, and 3X in the other direction? What was the cause of this?



2) I located several photos online of Kolb Mark 3 aircraft that had no flaps. Did the versions of the Mk/3 without flaps suffer from the same heavy aileron forces as the versions with flaps? 



3) The Kolb instructions/blueprints that I have seen (Firestar) show that you are supposed to install the hinges with the hinge axis in the center of the gap between the wing and aileron. They telly ou to put the hinge into a "V" shape and i nstall them, as opposed to the hinges being "flat". This particular Mark 3 has the hinge axis (pin) not exactly in the center of the gap. Does anybody know whether this would or would not make the ailerons more or less difficult?



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/31/17, M. Domenic Perez <perezmdomenic(at)plateautel.net> wrote:



 Subject: 3 axis control authority

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2017, 9:19 AM

 

   When I first got my

 Firestar II, my instructor test flew it first and commented

 that my ailerons “were crap”. I had bought the

 plane used and was disappointed that I might have bought a

 poorly built one. However, simply disassembling the joystick

 mixer, cleaning the metal-to-metal surfaces that are in

 contact during control movements, lubricating and being

 careful not to overtighten the nuts putting it back together

 “made all the difference in the world”, he said.

 So I never personally experienced the heavy aileron problem

 on my own plane, I’m just relaying what the instructor

 thought, before mixer maintenance and after. Bill Berle,

 something to think about on your friend’s Mk III if

 you haven’t already.  Haven’t

 contributed to the list or even flown for a while. Life can

 get complicated.

  M. Domenic

 PerezFS II 503Vaughn, NM

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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:07 am Post subject: 3 questions on aileron authority

Bill- While you have the aircraft down on the ground, check for the resistance right and left.  Then disconnect pieces one at a time until you find the culprit.  Yes, I have seen things that move freely in one direction and not the other.  Disconnect the ailerons and see if it's a hinge doing it, too.  It almost sounds like something is binding by going "over center", and you are trying to bend something to make it go back.



                                                      Bill Sullivan

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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1490
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:20 am Post subject: 3 questions on aileron authority

Bill I would suggest that you first make sure that the conversion to

dual sticks was done correctly.

Larry



On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 12:06 PM, william sullivan

<williamtsullivan(at)att.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



   Bill- While you have the aircraft down on the ground, check for the resistance right and left.  Then disconnect pieces one at a time until you find the culprit.  Yes, I have seen things that move freely in one direction and not the other.  Disconnect the ailerons and see if it's a hinge doing it, too.  It almost sounds like something is binding by going "over center", and you are trying to bend something to make it go back.



                                                       Bill Sullivan


	


-- 

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.



If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email

address before sending.

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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: 3 questions on aileron authority

Don't know if this will be any help but here is how the ailerons are supposed to be attached and aligned: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html

Note especially pages 19 & 23.



Also I reinforced the aileron pivots at the tip ends to keep everything aligned: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg8.htm

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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

baberdk

Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 53
Location: East Moline, Il

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:03 am Post subject: 3 questions on aileron authority

Bill,

 Check to see if the 2x2 wood spacer is between the gas tanks.





Respectfully,

Dennis Baber

Stay Curious

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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:01 am Post subject: 3 questions on aileron authority

This Kolb has a custom 25 gallon tank that is different than the standard fuel jugs.



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities



--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 6/1/17, Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 Subject: Re: 3 questions on aileron authority

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thursday, June 1, 2017, 5:03 AM

 

 

 Bill, Check to

 see if the 2x2 wood spacer is between the gas

 tanks.

 

 Respectfully,

 Dennis Baber

 Stay Curious

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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:39 am Post subject: 3 questions on aileron authority

25 Gallons! Wow, that's a lot of weight. Did he do a C.G. On the plane full fuel , coolant and at least to average weight (170#) pilot and passenger?

George H.



Have a great day!



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:57 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 This Kolb has a custom 25 gallon tank that is different than the standard fuel jugs.

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Thu, 6/1/17, Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 Subject: Re: 3 questions on aileron authority

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thursday, June 1, 2017, 5:03 AM

 

 

 Bill, Check to

 see if the 2x2 wood spacer is between the gas

 tanks.

 

 Respectfully,

 Dennis Baber

 Stay Curious

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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: 3 questions on aileron authority

157.5 pounds just in fuel. What engine is he running, 582, 912 or something different? Aft C.G. could cause all kinds of weird handling problems. It wouldn't account for the control force problems though. I wouldn't think anyway.  Anyway, for what it's worth. George H.



Have a great day!



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:57 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 This Kolb has a custom 25 gallon tank that is different than the standard fuel jugs.

 

 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Thu, 6/1/17, Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 Subject: Re: 3 questions on aileron authority

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thursday, June 1, 2017, 5:03 AM

 

 

 Bill, Check to

 see if the 2x2 wood spacer is between the gas

 tanks.

 

 Respectfully,

 Dennis Baber

 Stay Curious

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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: 3 questions on aileron authority

I have no idea on the weight and balance. The aircraft flew "well enough" to convince me that the weight and balance was not the cause of this particular problem. The problem I am referring to is on the longitudinal (roll) axis, not the pitch axis. 

We have a major problem with one of the primary flight controls, and I am looking for assistance and opinions on why a Kolb would be slightly difficult to roll left, and very difficult to roll right.

The pitch and yaw response was well within the acceptable range. 

Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------

On Thu, 6/1/17, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: 3 questions on aileron authority

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Thursday, June 1, 2017, 11:35 AM

 Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

 25 Gallons! Wow, that's a lot of

 weight. Did he do a C.G. On the plane full fuel , coolant

 and at least to average weight (170#) pilot and passenger?

 George H.

 Have a great day!

 > On Jun 1, 2017, at 10:57 AM, Bill

 Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 wrote:

 > 

 > --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 > 

 > This Kolb has a custom 25 gallon

 tank that is different than the standard fuel jugs.

 > 

 > Bill Berle

 > www.ezflaphandle.com  -

 safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 > www.grantstar.net   

        - winning proposals for non-profit and

 for-profit entities

 > 

 >

 --------------------------------------------

 > On Thu, 6/1/17, Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com>

 wrote:

 > 

 > Subject: Re: 3

 questions on aileron authority

 > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 > Date: Thursday, June 1, 2017, 5:03

 AM

 > 

 > 

 > Bill, Check to

 > see if the 2x2 wood spacer is

 between the gas

 > tanks.

 > 

 > Respectfully,

 > Dennis Baber

 > Stay Curious

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

 > 

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