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Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question
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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:43 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

UPS should be here with the new pump (going w/a Tempest brand) here in a few hours.   

Before I commit to putting it on the engine and buying it outright, I thought I'd run this by the gallery.
Earlier I was having a stumble when leaning rich of peak.   Come to find out, that was a heat related issue.  Re-routing a fuel line moved the line to a cooler part of the cowling and the engine has been running like a sewing machine ever since.
However, I continue to have fluctuating fuel pressures in flight.  Never enough to put the PSI in the yellow, but it's certainly not consistent and (In my amateur-built opinion) it's fluctuating more than it should.  
1) I don't believe I have a sensor problem.  Because I can kick on my Andair pump and it stabilizes at 26.9 to 27.0 PSI and holds steady.   Shut it off and the fluctuation restarts.
2) I suspected an air leak on the suction side of the pump.   But I tightened every fitting from the tank to the boost pump.   Then pressure tested the fuel lines forward of the boost pump.   No leaks found forward of the pump and likely not any air leaks behind it after tightening.
3) I suspected heat was an issue.  So I installed a blast tube on the engine driven pump.  (Cooling shroud is on order - BTW: Don't order one in the summer time or the lead time is around 2 months because of demand.)  It didn't make a difference.
So I'm starting to run out of options aside from replacing the pump itself.
Last night I was zipping along through the sky and I decided to grab my phone and shoot this video showing the pace and range of the fluctuation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSIiM96Vv4

Before I commit to replacing the pump, I wanted to see if anyone else has experienced a similar symptom.
Why might it be the pump?   Well the engine did sit for 4-5 years before I ever got the project to the point where I could start it.   So it's possible that one of the rubber check valves dried out inside the pump allowing some fuel to leak by.

Thanks,
Phil


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2702

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:32 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Hey Phil,

That's interesting you had a change with re-routing the
line. I'm interested in how close it was to hot stuff.
The amount of fluctuation you have is pretty high.
If it doesn't end up being the pump, I'd be saying
it could be the sensor. I'd think that unless
there were a huge air leak you wouldn't see anything
that drastic.

I also bought a blast tube shroud at one point but
it's still in the box, never installed it. I think
the fuel pump swap would be a lot harder with adding
that.

I know that doesn't help, but just interested in what you
find. If the pump swap doesn't do it, I'd try a new
sensor. Or, stick a mechanical gauge on it I suppose.
Tim


On 8/11/2017 8:42 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
Quote:
UPS should be here with the new pump (going w/a Tempest brand) here in a
few hours.

Before I commit to putting it on the engine and buying it outright, I
thought I'd run this by the gallery.

Earlier I was having a stumble when leaning rich of peak. Come to find
out, that was a heat related issue. Re-routing a fuel line moved the
line to a cooler part of the cowling and the engine has been running
like a sewing machine ever since.

However, I continue to have fluctuating fuel pressures in flight. Never
enough to put the PSI in the yellow, but it's certainly not consistent
and (In my amateur-built opinion) it's fluctuating more than it should.

1) I don't believe I have a sensor problem. Because I can kick on my
Andair pump and it stabilizes at 26.9 to 27.0 PSI and holds steady.
Shut it off and the fluctuation restarts.

2) I suspected an air leak on the suction side of the pump. But I
tightened every fitting from the tank to the boost pump. Then pressure
tested the fuel lines forward of the boost pump. No leaks found
forward of the pump and likely not any air leaks behind it after tightening.

3) I suspected heat was an issue. So I installed a blast tube on the
engine driven pump. (Cooling shroud is on order - BTW: Don't order one
in the summer time or the lead time is around 2 months because of
demand.) It didn't make a difference.

So I'm starting to run out of options aside from replacing the pump itself.

Last night I was zipping along through the sky and I decided to grab my
phone and shoot this video showing the pace and range of the fluctuation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSIiM96Vv4

Before I commit to replacing the pump, I wanted to see if anyone else
has experienced a similar symptom.

Why might it be the pump? Well the engine did sit for 4-5 years before
I ever got the project to the point where I could start it. So it's
possible that one of the rubber check valves dried out inside the pump
allowing some fuel to leak by.

Thanks,
Phil




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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:33 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Variations with flight attitude are not uncommon. Fluctuations during
cruise are not normal. Hard to evaluate "in the yellow" as the actual
Lycoming specified numbers(from Operating Manual) are, for IO-540-A
series engines, 20 min. and 26 max. While the engine will run down to
around 14 psi, I'd rather not go there. I normally see 1-2 psi increase
with boost pump.
On 8/11/2017 6:42 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
Quote:
UPS should be here with the new pump (going w/a Tempest brand) here in a
few hours.

Before I commit to putting it on the engine and buying it outright, I
thought I'd run this by the gallery.

Earlier I was having a stumble when leaning rich of peak. Come to find
out, that was a heat related issue. Re-routing a fuel line moved the
line to a cooler part of the cowling and the engine has been running
like a sewing machine ever since.

However, I continue to have fluctuating fuel pressures in flight. Never
enough to put the PSI in the yellow, but it's certainly not consistent
and (In my amateur-built opinion) it's fluctuating more than it should.

Quote:
2) I suspected an air leak on the suction side of the pump. But I
tightened every fitting from the tank to the boost pump. Then pressure
tested the fuel lines forward of the boost pump. No leaks found
forward of the pump and likely not any air leaks behind it after tightening.

3) I suspected heat was an issue. So I installed a blast tube on the
engine driven pump. (Cooling shroud is on order - BTW: Don't order one
in the summer time or the lead time is around 2 months because of
demand.) It didn't make a difference.

So I'm starting to run out of options aside from replacing the pump itself.

Last night I was zipping along through the sky and I decided to grab my
phone and shoot this video showing the pace and range of the fluctuation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSIiM96Vv4

Before I commit to replacing the pump, I wanted to see if anyone else
has experienced a similar symptom.

Why might it be the pump? Well the engine did sit for 4-5 years before
I ever got the project to the point where I could start it. So it's
possible that one of the rubber check valves dried out inside the pump
allowing some fuel to leak by.

Thanks,
Phil




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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD
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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1081
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

I agree with Tim. I don't think you have an air leak. I'm not
convinced you don't have a sensor problem. It looks worse than it
probably is because of the digital numbers at more precision than
needed. You really should have it stay around 23-25. The dips below 20
absent a nose up prolonged climb are a bit of a concern.
Kelly
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:
Quote:


Hey Phil,

That's interesting you had a change with re-routing the
line. I'm interested in how close it was to hot stuff.
The amount of fluctuation you have is pretty high.
If it doesn't end up being the pump, I'd be saying
it could be the sensor. I'd think that unless
there were a huge air leak you wouldn't see anything
that drastic.

On 8/11/2017 8:42 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
>
> UPS should be here with the new pump (going w/a Tempest brand) here in a
> few hours.
>
> Before I commit to putting it on the engine and buying it outright, I
> thought I'd run this by the gallery.
>
> Earlier I was having a stumble when leaning rich of peak. Come to find
> out, that was a heat related issue. Re-routing a fuel line moved the line
> to a cooler part of the cowling and the engine has been running like a
> sewing machine ever since.
>
> However, I continue to have fluctuating fuel pressures in flight. Never
> enough to put the PSI in the yellow, but it's certainly not consistent and
> (In my amateur-built opinion) it's fluctuating more than it should.
>
> 1) I don't believe I have a sensor problem. Because I can kick on my
> Andair pump and it stabilizes at 26.9 to 27.0 PSI and holds steady. Shut
> it off and the fluctuation restarts.
>mp? Well the engine did sit for 4-5 years before I
> ever got the project to the point where I could start it. So it's possible
> that one of the rubber check valves dried out inside the pump allowing some
> fuel to leak by.
>
> Thanks,
> Phil
>




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KCHD
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dilsonfrota(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Phil

Before changing my fuel pump I was experiencing about the same reading
you are having and the same kind of variation.

After the replacement, the pressure went up to around 30 PSI. But, the
fluctuating fuel pressure persist

I flew more than 40 hours now without a issue. My previous fuel pump had
just 200 hours on it

Rds

Dilson

Em 11/08/2017 10:42, Phillip Perry escreveu:
Quote:
UPS should be here with the new pump (going w/a Tempest brand) here in
a few hours.

Before I commit to putting it on the engine and buying it outright, I
thought I'd run this by the gallery.

Earlier I was having a stumble when leaning rich of peak. Come to find
out, that was a heat related issue. Re-routing a fuel line moved the
line to a cooler part of the cowling and the engine has been running
like a sewing machine ever since.

However, I continue to have fluctuating fuel pressures in flight.
Never enough to put the PSI in the yellow, but it's certainly not
consistent and (In my amateur-built opinion) it's fluctuating more
than it should.

1) I don't believe I have a sensor problem. Because I can kick on my
Andair pump and it stabilizes at 26.9 to 27.0 PSI and holds steady.
Shut it off and the fluctuation restarts.

2) I suspected an air leak on the suction side of the pump. But I
tightened every fitting from the tank to the boost pump. Then
pressure tested the fuel lines forward of the boost pump. No leaks
found forward of the pump and likely not any air leaks behind it after
tightening.

3) I suspected heat was an issue. So I installed a blast tube on the
engine driven pump. (Cooling shroud is on order - BTW: Don't order
one in the summer time or the lead time is around 2 months because of
demand.) It didn't make a difference.

So I'm starting to run out of options aside from replacing the pump
itself.

Last night I was zipping along through the sky and I decided to grab
my phone and shoot this video showing the pace and range of the
fluctuation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weSIiM96Vv4

Before I commit to replacing the pump, I wanted to see if anyone else
has experienced a similar symptom.

Why might it be the pump? Well the engine did sit for 4-5 years
before I ever got the project to the point where I could start it.
So it's possible that one of the rubber check valves dried out inside
the pump allowing some fuel to leak by.

Thanks,
Phil


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Lenny Iszak



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.

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Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:13 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Yes. Restrictor installed at the pump.

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:



Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.

--------
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471748#471748











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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:31 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

I'm having some fluctuations when I turn on my electric pump. In talking with Don Rivera, it's because the o-ring is sticking a bit, it builds up pressure then releases. I'm seeing a single high spike, then drops to normal almost instantaneously. It was tripping an audio alert, which became quickly annoying.


I didn't see these before I upgraded my efis using the same sensor. So the new efis is more responsive in measuring sensor output than the old one.


Don recommended using a flow restrictor smaller than the one Vans provided us in the kit to dampen the spike better. I haven't found a source yet. I don't have the size handy, but could look it up if anyone is interested.


I'm not implying this has anything to do with Phil's issue. I'm just adding on to Lenny's comment about flow restrictors.


Bob


Get Outlook for iOS
_____________________________
From: Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com (lenard(at)rapiddecision.com)>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>


--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lenny Iszak" <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com (lenard(at)rapiddecision.com)>

Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.

--------
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471748#471748






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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Quick Update....

UPS dropped the pump off at 10AM.   By noon I had removed the old one and put the new one on (mostly - minus safety wire and a couple of scat tubes that need to be replaced).    The safety wire tip was a great one and worked like a champ.  The only thing I'd add is to wait to put your fittings on the pump after the pump is in position.   It just gives you a few more inches and angles to work with.  I wish I had done that, but didn't.
I wanted to do a ground run before I took the time to safety wire it and replace the scat tubes.   Mission accomplished.
The run-up initially showed lower fuel pressures, a stumbling engine, and a desire to idle at an RPM much lower than normal (~500 RPM).  It would have died if I let it.   I tried to purge the lines as best I could with the purge valve, but it didn't get everything apparently.   After a few minutes of rough running though, the engine was ticking right along as expected.  Most of that was air in the lines I suspect since I had an empty pump, and lines. 
As far as noticeable changes, fuel pressure has taken a 25% leap forward; increasing from 25 PSI on the old pump (at taxi) to 33 PSI on the new pump.
Now that it appears to work, I'll head back up there in a few hours and put the rest of it back together and hopefully fly it this evening.  Then I can report in on cruise changes.  But the indicators, at this point, show a step in the right direction.
I did all this with a 7 year old boy and a 5 year old little girl in the hangar.  I bet I heard, "Daddy I want to buy a kitten" 150 times.  In combination with, "I'm ready for our dogs to die so we can get a kitten" another 82. 
I'm glad she was there to bug me as it eclipsed my frustration with the pump replacement.   If you're going to be replacing one of these, I'd suggest bringing a 5 year old little girl to the hangar with you.  If you have one that is determined to get a kitten, then even better.

Hopefully I can report some in-flight observations later tonight.
Phil
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Bob Leffler <bob(at)thelefflers.com (bob(at)thelefflers.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I'm having some fluctuations when I turn on my electric pump.  In talking with Don Rivera, it's because the o-ring is sticking a bit, it builds up pressure then releases.  I'm seeing a single high spike, then drops to normal almost instantaneously.  It was tripping an audio alert, which became quickly annoying. 


I didn't see these before I upgraded my efis using the same sensor.  So the new efis is more responsive in measuring sensor output than the old one.  


Don recommended using a flow restrictor smaller than the one Vans provided us in the kit to dampen the spike better.  I haven't found a source yet.   I don't have the size handy, but could look it up if anyone is interested.  


I'm not implying this has anything to do with Phil's issue.  I'm just adding on to Lenny's comment about flow restrictors. 


Bob


Get Outlook for iOS
_____________________________
From: Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com (lenard(at)rapiddecision.com)>
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>


--> RV10-List message posted by: "Lenny Iszak" <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com (lenard(at)rapiddecision.com)>

Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.

--------
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471748#471748






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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2702

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Well that's positive news. Surprised it actually makes that much
pressure. If they weren't so expensive I'd buy a Tempest just
to have on hand. I like spare parts. Smile

The stuff on the kids is priceless. Hopefully you won't have to
have any dead dogs to get the kitten. That said, as a former
Cat owner and later Dog owner, I think she's going the wrong
direction. I'm sure half the list will want to beat me for this
but, Dogs rule. Try taking your cat on a flight sometime...
Looking forward to "The rest of the story". (Old Paul Harvey
reference). Geez, that dates me, doesn't it? Am I that old?
Tim


On 08/11/2017 01:19 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:
Quote:
Quick Update....

UPS dropped the pump off at 10AM. By noon I had removed the old one
and put the new one on (mostly - minus safety wire and a couple of scat
tubes that need to be replaced). The safety wire tip was a great one
and worked like a champ. The only thing I'd add is to wait to put your
fittings on the pump after the pump is in position. It just gives you
a few more inches and angles to work with. I wish I had done that, but
didn't.

I wanted to do a ground run before I took the time to safety wire it and
replace the scat tubes. Mission accomplished.

The run-up initially showed lower fuel pressures, a stumbling engine,
and a desire to idle at an RPM much lower than normal (~500 RPM). It
would have died if I let it. I tried to purge the lines as best I
could with the purge valve, but it didn't get everything apparently.
After a few minutes of rough running though, the engine was ticking
right along as expected. Most of that was air in the lines I suspect
since I had an empty pump, and lines.

As far as noticeable changes, fuel pressure has taken a 25% leap
forward; increasing from 25 PSI on the old pump (at taxi) to 33 PSI on
the new pump.

Now that it appears to work, I'll head back up there in a few hours and
put the rest of it back together and hopefully fly it this evening.
Then I can report in on cruise changes. But the indicators, at this
point, show a step in the right direction.

I did all this with a 7 year old boy and a 5 year old little girl in the
hangar. I bet I heard, "Daddy I want to buy a kitten" 150 times. In
combination with, "I'm ready for our dogs to die so we can get a kitten"
another 82.

I'm glad she was there to bug me as it eclipsed my frustration with the
pump replacement. If you're going to be replacing one of these, I'd
suggest bringing a 5 year old little girl to the hangar with you. If
you have one that is determined to get a kitten, then even better.

Hopefully I can report some in-flight observations later tonight.

Phil




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rene(at)felker.com
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:09 am    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Yes, but some of us may have you beat by at least a couple of years. Getting older has one positive, the older you get the more senior discounts you get.

Do not archive

Because we are too old to care.

Rene'
801-721-6080

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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

I didn't get a Tempest after all.

I put this Tempest pump in my basket several times:  Model (LW15473)
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/TEMPESTfuelpumpLYC2.php?clickkey=57512

When I did it kept changing my order to this pump (LW15473)
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/contlycfuelpump.php

I just suspected it had something to do with ACS's ordering system.    When it came in, it was in a Lycoming box....

But it's working.... (apparently)  Headed back to the airport in a bit to put it together.
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

Well that's positive news.  Surprised it actually makes that much
pressure.  If they weren't so expensive I'd buy a Tempest just
to have on hand. I like spare parts. Smile

The stuff on the kids is priceless.  Hopefully you won't have to
have any dead dogs to get the kitten.  That said, as a former
Cat owner and later Dog owner, I think she's going the wrong
direction.  I'm sure half the list will want to beat me for this
but, Dogs rule.  Try taking your cat on a flight sometime...
Looking forward to "The rest of the story".  (Old Paul Harvey
reference). Geez, that dates me, doesn't it?  Am I that old?
Tim




On 08/11/2017 01:19 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:
Quote:
Quick Update....

UPS dropped the pump off at 10AM.   By noon I had removed the old one and put the new one on (mostly - minus safety wire and a couple of scat tubes that need to be replaced).    The safety wire tip was a great one and worked like a champ.  The only thing I'd add is to wait to put your fittings on the pump after the pump is in position.   It just gives you a few more inches and angles to work with.  I wish I had done that, but didn't.

I wanted to do a ground run before I took the time to safety wire it and replace the scat tubes.   Mission accomplished.

The run-up initially showed lower fuel pressures, a stumbling engine, and a desire to idle at an RPM much lower than normal (~500 RPM).  It would have died if I let it.   I tried to purge the lines as best I could with the purge valve, but it didn't get everything apparently.   After a few minutes of rough running though, the engine was ticking right along as expected.  Most of that was air in the lines I suspect since I had an empty pump, and lines.

As far as noticeable changes, fuel pressure has taken a 25% leap forward; increasing from 25 PSI on the old pump (at taxi) to 33 PSI on the new pump.

Now that it appears to work, I'll head back up there in a few hours and put the rest of it back together and hopefully fly it this evening.  Then I can report in on cruise changes.  But the indicators, at this point, show a step in the right direction.

I did all this with a 7 year old boy and a 5 year old little girl in the hangar.  I bet I heard, "Daddy I want to buy a kitten" 150 times.  In combination with, "I'm ready for our dogs to die so we can get a kitten" another 82.

I'm glad she was there to bug me as it eclipsed my frustration with the pump replacement.   If you're going to be replacing one of these, I'd suggest bringing a 5 year old little girl to the hangar with you.  If you have one that is determined to get a kitten, then even better.

Hopefully I can report some in-flight observations later tonight.

Phil


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:43 pm    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Hmm, restrictor's purpose is to prevent large flow if line fails, and
fuel pressure line is usually connected to the fuel servo, on opposite
side to the inlet screen. So the restrictor should be in between the
fuel pressure line connection on the engine end of the line going to the
fuel pressure sending unit. Is your fuel pressure line connected to a
fitting on the pump? You really want to know how much pressure is
internal in the fuel servo, not at the pump.

On 8/11/2017 8:12 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
Quote:


Yes. Restrictor installed at the pump.



Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.
>
> --------
> Lenny Iszak
> Palm City, FL
> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471748#471748
>






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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

You got the Lycoming OEM pump at $387. The Tempest is P/N AF15473 at
$309, while Lycoming is LW15473. The page is misleading in that it shows
both Lycoming and Tempest in the same table under the Tempest label.
PMA parts always have a modification of the OEM part number, like
Superior parts will have an S in front of the Lycoming part number.
They can't sell PMA part under identical part number as OEM.

On 8/11/2017 1:35 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:
Quote:
I didn't get a Tempest after all.

I put this Tempest pump in my basket several times: Model (LW15473)
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/TEMPESTfuelpumpLYC2.php?clickkey=57512

When I did it kept changing my order to this pump (LW15473)
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/contlycfuelpump.php

I just suspected it had something to do with ACS's ordering system.
When it came in, it was in a Lycoming box....

But it's working.... (apparently) Headed back to the airport in a bit
to put it together.

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com
<mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com>> wrote:



Well that's positive news. Surprised it actually makes that much
pressure. If they weren't so expensive I'd buy a Tempest just
to have on hand. I like spare parts. Smile

The stuff on the kids is priceless. Hopefully you won't have to
have any dead dogs to get the kitten. That said, as a former
Cat owner and later Dog owner, I think she's going the wrong
direction. I'm sure half the list will want to beat me for this
but, Dogs rule. Try taking your cat on a flight sometime...
Looking forward to "The rest of the story". (Old Paul Harvey
reference). Geez, that dates me, doesn't it? Am I that old?
Tim




On 08/11/2017 01:19 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:

Quick Update....

UPS dropped the pump off at 10AM. By noon I had removed the
old one and put the new one on (mostly - minus safety wire and a
couple of scat tubes that need to be replaced). The safety
wire tip was a great one and worked like a champ. The only
thing I'd add is to wait to put your fittings on the pump after
the pump is in position. It just gives you a few more inches
and angles to work with. I wish I had done that, but didn't.

I wanted to do a ground run before I took the time to safety
wire it and replace the scat tubes. Mission accomplished.

The run-up initially showed lower fuel pressures, a stumbling
engine, and a desire to idle at an RPM much lower than normal
(~500 RPM). It would have died if I let it. I tried to purge
the lines as best I could with the purge valve, but it didn't
get everything apparently. After a few minutes of rough
running though, the engine was ticking right along as expected.
Most of that was air in the lines I suspect since I had an empty
pump, and lines.

As far as noticeable changes, fuel pressure has taken a 25% leap
forward; increasing from 25 PSI on the old pump (at taxi) to 33
PSI on the new pump.

Now that it appears to work, I'll head back up there in a few
hours and put the rest of it back together and hopefully fly it
this evening. Then I can report in on cruise changes. But the
indicators, at this point, show a step in the right direction.

I did all this with a 7 year old boy and a 5 year old little
girl in the hangar. I bet I heard, "Daddy I want to buy a
kitten" 150 times. In combination with, "I'm ready for our dogs
to die so we can get a kitten" another 82.

I'm glad she was there to bug me as it eclipsed my frustration
with the pump replacement. If you're going to be replacing one
of these, I'd suggest bringing a 5 year old little girl to the
hangar with you. If you have one that is determined to get a
kitten, then even better.

Hopefully I can report some in-flight observations later tonight.

Phil


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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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====================================






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KCHD
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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2702

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

In that case, it's probably worth checking real quick to make sure that the Lycoming pump is not covered by that service bulletin that caused me to replace mine. They had some non-conforming parts. Lycoming was not very aggressive at getting them replaced. I had to ask. I highly doubt that yours will be affected,but it maybe worth looking up the serial number quick. The service bulletins old enough that I bet that aircraft Spruce would have checked them all already.
Tim

[quote] On Aug 11, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I didn't get a Tempest after all.

I put this Tempest pump in my basket several times: Model (LW15473)
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/TEMPESTfuelpumpLYC2.php?clickkey=57512

When I did it kept changing my order to this pump (LW15473)
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/contlycfuelpump.php

I just suspected it had something to do with ACS's ordering system. When it came in, it was in a Lycoming box....

But it's working.... (apparently) Headed back to the airport in a bit to put it together.

> On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:
>
>
> Well that's positive news. Surprised it actually makes that much
> pressure. If they weren't so expensive I'd buy a Tempest just
> to have on hand. I like spare parts. Smile
>
> The stuff on the kids is priceless. Hopefully you won't have to
> have any dead dogs to get the kitten. That said, as a former
> Cat owner and later Dog owner, I think she's going the wrong
> direction. I'm sure half the list will want to beat me for this
> but, Dogs rule. Try taking your cat on a flight sometime...
> Looking forward to "The rest of the story". (Old Paul Harvey
> reference). Geez, that dates me, doesn't it? Am I that old?
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>> On 08/11/2017 01:19 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:
>> Quick Update....
>>
>> UPS dropped the pump off at 10AM. By noon I had removed the old one and put the new one on (mostly - minus safety wire and a couple of scat tubes that need to be replaced). The safety wire tip was a great one and worked like a champ. The only thing I'd add is to wait to put your fittings on the pump after the pump is in position. It just gives you a few more inches and angles to work with. I wish I had done that, but didn't.
>>
>> I wanted to do a ground run before I took the time to safety wire it and replace the scat tubes. Mission accomplished.
>>
>> The run-up initially showed lower fuel pressures, a stumbling engine, and a desire to idle at an RPM much lower than normal (~500 RPM). It would have died if I let it. I tried to purge the lines as best I could with the purge valve, but it didn't get everything apparently. After a few minutes of rough running though, the engine was ticking right along as expected. Most of that was air in the lines I suspect since I had an empty pump, and lines.
>>
>> As far as noticeable changes, fuel pressure has taken a 25% leap forward; increasing from 25 PSI on the old pump (at taxi) to 33 PSI on the new pump


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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

Mine is installed like Vans plans suggest. Photo attached.

Coming out of the pump there is a T. One leg goes forward to the servo.

The other leg has a restrictor fitting and the hose goes on up to the firewall manifold where the pressure sensor is located.

Phil

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Aug 11, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:



Hmm, restrictor's purpose is to prevent large flow if line fails, and fuel pressure line is usually connected to the fuel servo, on opposite side to the inlet screen. So the restrictor should be in between the fuel pressure line connection on the engine end of the line going to the fuel pressure sending unit. Is your fuel pressure line connected to a fitting on the pump? You really want to know how much pressure is internal in the fuel servo, not at the pump.

> On 8/11/2017 8:12 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
>
> Yes. Restrictor installed at the pump.
> Sent from my iPhone
>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.
>>
>> --------
>> Lenny Iszak
>> Palm City, FL
>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471748#471748
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
====================================

====================================
====================================
====================================
====================================
Quote:





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Kelly McMullen



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Posts: 1081
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

That could account for some of the fluctuation. Production planes
connect at the servo. I have to keep switching mind between factory
planes I've worked on and Van's somewhat different way of doing
things.
-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm
On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
Mine is installed like Vans plans suggest. Photo attached.

Coming out of the pump there is a T. One leg goes forward to the servo.

The other leg has a restrictor fitting and the hose goes on up to the firewall manifold where the pressure sensor is located.

Phil

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 11, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hmm, restrictor's purpose is to prevent large flow if line fails, and fuel pressure line is usually connected to the fuel servo, on opposite side to the inlet screen. So the restrictor should be in between the fuel pressure line connection on the engine end of the line going to the fuel pressure sending unit. Is your fuel pressure line connected to a fitting on the pump? You really want to know how much pressure is internal in the fuel servo, not at the pump.
>
>> On 8/11/2017 8:12 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
>>
>> Yes. Restrictor installed at the pump.
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Lenny Iszak
>>> Palm City, FL
>>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471748#471748
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
====================================
====================================
====================================
====================================
====================================
>



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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

I am up here working on it now and while safety wiring this thing, I might have found another possible source of fluctuation.... it escaped my eye until now.

Photo attached.
Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Aug 11, 2017, at 4:32 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:



That could account for some of the fluctuation. Production planes
connect at the servo. I have to keep switching mind between factory
planes I've worked on and Van's somewhat different way of doing
things.
-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm


> On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> Mine is installed like Vans plans suggest. Photo attached.
>
> Coming out of the pump there is a T. One leg goes forward to the servo.
>
> The other leg has a restrictor fitting and the hose goes on up to the firewall manifold where the pressure sensor is located.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hmm, restrictor's purpose is to prevent large flow if line fails, and fuel pressure line is usually connected to the fuel servo, on opposite side to the inlet screen. So the restrictor should be in between the fuel pressure line connection on the engine end of the line going to the fuel pressure sending unit. Is your fuel pressure line connected to a fitting on the pump? You really want to know how much pressure is internal in the fuel servo, not at the pump.
>>
>>> On 8/11/2017 8:12 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes. Restrictor installed at the pump.
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Lenny Iszak
>>>> Palm City, FL
>>>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471748#471748
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> =========================>> =========================>> =========================>> =========================>> =========================>>>
>>
>>
>

====================================

====================================
====================================
====================================
====================================
Quote:





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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2702

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:32 pm    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

There you go...an air bubble up high by the sensor. That could be it!
Tim

Quote:
On Aug 11, 2017, at 4:54 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I am up here working on it now and while safety wiring this thing, I might have found another possible source of fluctuation.... it escaped my eye until now.

Photo attached.

<image1.JPG>




Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 11, 2017, at 4:32 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> That could account for some of the fluctuation. Production planes
> connect at the servo. I have to keep switching mind between factory
> planes I've worked on and Van's somewhat different way of doing
> things.
> -sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm
>
>
>> On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mine is installed like Vans plans suggest. Photo attached.
>>
>> Coming out of the pump there is a T. One leg goes forward to the servo.
>>
>> The other leg has a restrictor fitting and the hose goes on up to the firewall manifold where the pressure sensor is located.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm, restrictor's purpose is to prevent large flow if line fails, and fuel pressure line is usually connected to the fuel servo, on opposite side to the inlet screen. So the restrictor should be in between the fuel pressure line connection on the engine end of the line going to the fuel pressure sending unit. Is your fuel pressure line connected to a fitting on the pump? You really want to know how much pressure is internal in the fuel servo, not at the pump.
>>>
>>>> On 8/11/2017 8:12 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Restrictor installed at the pump.
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.
>>>>>
>>>>> --------
>>>>> Lenny Iszak
>>>>> Palm City, FL
>>>>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471748#471748
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> =========================>> =========================>> =========================>> =========================>> =========================>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
====================================
====================================
====================================
====================================
====================================
>
>
>


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philperry9



Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Before the fuel pump exchange - one last question Reply with quote

If that's it, and probably is, I'm not telling my wife......

If any of you tell my wife, I'm going to call you a liar. Smile

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Aug 11, 2017, at 5:32 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:



There you go...an air bubble up high by the sensor. That could be it!
Tim

> On Aug 11, 2017, at 4:54 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am up here working on it now and while safety wiring this thing, I might have found another possible source of fluctuation.... it escaped my eye until now.
>
> Photo attached.
>
> <image1.JPG>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 4:32 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> That could account for some of the fluctuation. Production planes
>> connect at the servo. I have to keep switching mind between factory
>> planes I've worked on and Van's somewhat different way of doing
>> things.
>> -sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mine is installed like Vans plans suggest. Photo attached.
>>>
>>> Coming out of the pump there is a T. One leg goes forward to the servo.
>>>
>>> The other leg has a restrictor fitting and the hose goes on up to the firewall manifold where the pressure sensor is located.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmm, restrictor's purpose is to prevent large flow if line fails, and fuel pressure line is usually connected to the fuel servo, on opposite side to the inlet screen. So the restrictor should be in between the fuel pressure line connection on the engine end of the line going to the fuel pressure sending unit. Is your fuel pressure line connected to a fitting on the pump? You really want to know how much pressure is internal in the fuel servo, not at the pump.
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/11/2017 8:12 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. Restrictor installed at the pump.
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On Aug 11, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Lenny Iszak <lenard(at)rapiddecision.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you have a flow restrictor in your fuel pressure sensor fitting? The engine driven pump puts out "heavier" pressure pulses than that electric one. The restrictor helps dampen those. Some EFISs average out the fluctuations, some don't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------
>>>>>> Lenny Iszak
>>>>>> Palm City, FL
>>>>>> 2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 300 hrs
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>>>
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