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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:24 am Post subject: aileron balancing

Having got my ailerons back from the painter, I weighed them. The port one was 2480g before filling, profiling & painting; that whole process has added 625g to make it now 3105g. The starboard one was 2495g, and gained 670g to make it 3165g. The paint was 2-pack automotive which I was assured would turn out much lighter (and cheaper!) than the gel-coat I had originally envisaged.



I started into the balancing procedure described in the manual. I found my hinges are not quite free enough to let the ailerons swing freely from them, so I made loops of nylon fishing line, put them under the hinge knuckles and suspended the ailerons from them. Alas! - both the ailerons balance with the TE slightly down. I find that if I put a lead weight on one horn, I can make the aileron balance level. My piece of lead weighs 366g and level balance is obtained with it about 50mm forward of the hinge line.



Thus the out-of-balance moment towards the TE is 0.0183 metre-kg. I wonder if there is any tolerance on the amount of out-of-balance that is allowed or is safe - but I donâ€™t want to take any chances with flutter.



Avid readers of my online build journal will recall that in May 2003, on advice from Neville about getting the proper aileron travel, I shaved a little off the top of the lead weights before attaching them to the aileron horns. It now appears that either I must have shaved too much or that the painting has been much more generous than Neville expected.



What should I do? I suppose the ideal thing is to rub down all the paint back to the glass/filler again and ask the painter to put on a lighter coat. I donâ€™t have access to depleted uranium to insert into the mass horns to make them heavier!



I hope I might see Andy Draper at the LAA Rally and ask for his advice, but would welcome any thoughts others on this forum might have on the matter.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:57 am Post subject: aileron balancing

Rowland.

When I balanced mine - admittedly I had not shaved anything off the top - I not only had to drill a 1/2" hole, I practically had to hollow out the weights to get them to balance per the manual.Â  It was a very annoying job with the drill bit catching on the lead etc. Â  Â  Â I read from the forum that this is quite common.

So it surprises me that yours balance TE down.... perhaps some pics of your aileron balance horn and the box into which it fits might be helpful.

Will

William Daniell



LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744



 

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Having got my ailerons back from the painter, I weighed them. The port one was 2480g before filling, profiling & painting; that whole process has added 625g to make it now 3105g. The starboard one was 2495g, and gained 670g to make it 3165g. The paint was 2-pack automotive which I was assured would turn out much lighter (and cheaper!) than the gel-coat I had originally envisaged.

 

 I started into the balancing procedure described in the manual. I found my hinges are not quite free enough to let the ailerons swing freely from them, so I made loops of nylon fishing line, put them under the hinge knuckles and suspended the ailerons from them. Alas! - both the ailerons balance with the TE slightly down. I find that if I put a lead weight on one horn, I can make the aileron balance level. My piece of lead weighs 366g and level balance is obtained with it about 50mm forward of the hinge line.

 

 Thus the out-of-balance moment towards the TE is 0.0183 metre-kg. I wonder if there is any tolerance on the amount of out-of-balance that is allowed or is safe - but I donâ€™t want to take any chances with flutter.

 

 Avid readers of my online build journal will recall that in May 2003, on advice from Neville about getting the proper aileron travel, I shaved a little off the top of the lead weights before attaching them to the aileron horns. It now appears that either I must have shaved too much or that the painting has been much more generous than Neville expected.

 

 What should I do? I suppose the ideal thing is to rub down all the paint back to the glass/filler again and ask the painter to put on a lighter coat. I donâ€™t have access to depleted uranium to insert into the mass horns to make them heavier!

 

 I hope I might see Andy Draper at the LAA Rally and ask for his advice, but would welcome any thoughts others on this forum might have on the matter.

 

 in friendship

 

 Rowland

 

 | Rowland CarsonÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

 | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

 | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carsonÂ  Â  Â  Facebook: Rowland Carson

 

 

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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: aileron balancing

Rowland, I am appalled/alarmed to hear that each aileron has gained something like 1.5 lbs. I would suggest a couple of things - firstly do a surface area calculation and work out how much weight the whole aircraft is due to gain with current paint system, and secondly sand it off one aileron and get Roger Targett to gel coat it, rub it down to that perfect laminar flow finish and see how much that has added. The great thing about gel coat is that you remove most of it, rubbing down with wet and dry sandpaper. My gel coated 914 XS is one of the lightest on the register and it is not because of lack of kit! I would have done some calculations myself but I have the dominant cat sitting on my lap and he would be most offended if I went to measure things up! My mental guesstimation though is that the ailerons have probably a bit less than 2% of total area, so you may be looking at your paint adding 100lbs, which seems a fairly serious issue. 

Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ 

   

 

On 2017-08-29 17:56, William Daniell wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    Rowland.

  

 When I balanced mine - admittedly I had not shaved anything off the top - I not only had to drill a 1/2" hole, I practically had to hollow out the weights to get them to balance per the manual.  It was a very annoying job with the drill bit catching on the lead etc.      I read from the forum that this is quite common.

  

 So it surprises me that yours balance TE down.... perhaps some pics of your aileron balance horn and the box into which it fits might be helpful.

  

 Will

     William Daniell

 LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744

 

 

 

  On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>  Having got my ailerons back from the painter, I weighed them. The port one was 2480g before filling, profiling & painting; that whole process has added 625g to make it now 3105g. The starboard one was 2495g, and gained 670g to make it 3165g. The paint was 2-pack automotive which I was assured would turn out much lighter (and cheaper!) than the gel-coat I had originally envisaged.  I started into the balancing procedure described in the manual. I found my hinges are not quite free enough to let the ailerons swing freely from them, so I made loops of nylon fishing line, put them under the hinge knuckles and suspended the ailerons from them. Alas! - both the ailerons balance with the TE slightly down. I find that if I put a lead weight on one horn, I can make the aileron balance level. My piece of lead weighs 366g and level balance is obtained with it about 50mm forward of the hinge line.  Thus the out-of-balance moment towards the TE is 0.0183 metre-kg. I wonder if there is any tolerance on the amount of out-of-balance that is allowed or is safe - but I don't want to take any chances with flutter.  Avid readers of my online build journal will recall that in May 2003, on advice from Neville about getting the proper aileron travel, I shaved a little off the top of the lead weights before attaching them to the aileron horns. It now appears that either I must have shaved too much or that the painting has been much more generous than Neville expected.  What should I do? I suppose the ideal thing is to rub down all the paint back to the glass/filler again and ask the painter to put on a lighter coat. I don't have access to depleted uranium to insert into the mass horns to make them heavier!  I hope I might see Andy Draper at the LAA Rally and ask for his advice, but would welcome any thoughts others on this forum might have on the matter.  in friendship  Rowland  | Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson   ==================================== pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List ==================================== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com =========== b Site -           -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ====================================

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:08 pm Post subject: aileron balancing

Rowland

you could try some tunsten carbide grinding dust from you local tool grinder?

Mixed with a little epoxy its heavier than lead.

Also polish off some of the paint, at the trailing edge will have most effect of course.



Graham

 

    On Tuesday, 29 August 2017, 17:27, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:



  



 --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>



Having got my ailerons back from the painter, I weighed them. The port one was 2480g before filling, profiling & painting; that whole process has added 625g to make it now 3105g. The starboard one was 2495g, and gained 670g to make it 3165g. The paint was 2-pack automotive which I was assured would turn out much lighter (and cheaper!) than the gel-coat I had originally envisaged.



I started into the balancing procedure described in the manual. I found my hinges are not quite free enough to let the ailerons swing freely from them, so I made loops of nylon fishing line, put them under the hinge knuckles and suspended the ailerons from them. Alas! - both the ailerons balance with the TE slightly down. I find that if I put a lead weight on one horn, I can make the aileron balance level. My piece of lead weighs 366g and level balance is obtained with it about 50mm forward of the hinge line.



Thus the out-of-balance moment towards the TE is 0.0183 metre-kg. I wonder if there is any tolerance on the amount of out-of-balance that is allowed or is safe - but I donâ€™t want to take any chances with flutter.



Avid readers of my online build journal will recall that in May 2003, on advice from Neville about getting the proper aileron travel, I shaved a little off the top of the lead weights before attaching them to the aileron horns. It now appears that either I must have shaved too much or that the painting has been much more generous than Neville expected.



What should I do? I suppose the ideal thing is to rub down all the paint back to the glass/filler again and ask the painter to put on a lighter coat. I donâ€™t have access to depleted uranium to insert into the mass horns to make them heavier!



I hope I might see Andy Draper at the LAA Rally and ask for his advice, but would welcome any thoughts others on this forum might have on the matter.



in friendship



Rowland



| Rowland Carson          ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...



| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>            http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk



| Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson      Facebook: Rowland Carson





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jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:23 am Post subject: aileron balancing

Tungsten welding rod could be a source of extra mass, f.i.:     

http://www.r-techwelding.co.uk/welding-equipment/tig-welder-consumables/tig-torch-consumables/tig-welder-tungsten-electrodes/     

Jan de Jong

          

     On 8/29/2017 10:01 PM, GRAHAM SINGLETON       wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                  Rowland

         you           could try some tunsten carbide grinding dust from you local           tool grinder?

         Mixed           with a little epoxy its heavier than lead.

         Also           polish off some of the paint, at the trailing edge will have           most effect of course.

         

         

         

         Graham

         

         

         

           

         

                                                 On Tuesday, 29                   August 2017, 17:27, Rowland Carson                   <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com) wrote:

                 

               

               

                                --> Europa-List message posted by:                   Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>

                 

                 

                 

                 Having got my ailerons back from the                   painter, I weighed them. The port one was 2480g before                   filling, profiling & painting; that whole process                   has added 625g to make it now 3105g. The starboard one                   was 2495g, and gained 670g to make it 3165g. The paint                   was 2-pack automotive which I was assured would turn                   out much lighter (and cheaper!) than the gel-coat I                   had originally envisaged.

                 

                 

                 

                 I started into the balancing procedure                   described in the manual. I found my hinges are not                   quite free enough to let the ailerons swing freely                   from them, so I made loops of nylon fishing line, put                   them under the hinge knuckles and suspended the                   ailerons from them. Alas! - both the ailerons balance                   with the TE slightly down. I find that if I put a lead                   weight on one horn, I can make the aileron balance                   level. My piece of lead weighs 366g and level balance                   is obtained with it about 50mm forward of the hinge                   line.

                 

                 

                 

                 Thus the out-of-balance moment towards                   the TE is 0.0183 metre-kg. I wonder if there is any                   tolerance on the amount of out-of-balance that is                   allowed or is safe - but I donâ€™t want to take any                   chances with flutter.

                 

                 

                 

                 Avid readers of my online build journal                   will recall that in May 2003, on advice from Neville                   about getting the proper aileron travel, I shaved a                   little off the top of the lead weights before                   attaching them to the aileron horns. It now appears                   that either I must have shaved too much or that the                   painting has been much more generous than Neville                   expected.

                 

                 

                 

                 What should I do? I suppose the ideal                   thing is to rub down all the paint back to the                   glass/filler again and ask the painter to put on a                   lighter coat. I donâ€™t have access to depleted uranium                   to insert into the mass horns to make them heavier!

                 

                 

                 

                 I hope I might see Andy Draper at the LAA                   Rally and ask for his advice, but would welcome any                   thoughts others on this forum might have on the                   matter.

                 

                 

                 

                 in friendship

                 

                 

                 

                 Rowland

                 

                 

                 

                 | Rowland CarsonÂ  Â  Â  Â  Â  ... that's                   Rowland with a 'w' ...

                 

                 | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)>Â                    Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk

                 

                 | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carsonÂ  Â  Â                    Facebook: Rowland Carson

                 

                 

                 

                 

                   

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:27 am Post subject: Re: aileron balancing

Rowland,



Not being the designer of the aircraft it's hard to provide a definite opinion about tolerance on the balance. But I can provide you my experience with the LongEZ and an opinion of what I'd do.



My LongEZ developed a well known issue where the ailerons would have a high frequency buzz when in cruise. Upon research, it is written in the Rutan newsletters that this is a common problem with the LongEZ and Rutan adamantly claims it's not flutter (he says if it was flutter you wouldn't be there to tell the story). What the issue is is an effect of engine vibration combined with a little wear in the hinge and a natural frequency that will cause the vibration.



So to the relevant part to your issue. The LongEZ elevator balance could flutter if a little off balance and it is critical. But the aileron is not so critical. The difference is the aeroelastic characteristic of what it is attached to. The canard flexes a lot so flutter will bend the canard and will worsen the flutter to the point of destruction. The wing is too stiff and will hold things in check. If the elevator wont balance you have to throw it away and make a new one. Not so with the ailerons. Again, this is the LongEZ, don't know about the Europa.



When I pulled my aileron out and I checked the balance, it was TE down by quite a bit. But the aircraft flew for 20 years like that and it was even used for racing with no issues. Anyway, he procedure to fix the buzz is to ad teflon liners to the hinge pins to eliminate slop and use a thin lead tape (not the thick wheel balancing stuff) and layer it on the aileron LE nose until the aileron is level. Keep in mind that the nose of the aileron on the LEZ is further forward from the hinge line than in the Europa. Once you find a satisfactory number of layers, you go fly and if you are happy you scuff the paint fore and aft of the lead tape and place a 1 BID layer to make it permanent (which I haven't done yet). Buzz is now gone.



So to your issue (my opinion): You can either place some tape on the balance horns (sides or bottom) or sand some paint off the bottom of the aileron and go fly. Building is fun but flying is more so . Anyway, you will have time to address what to do with it later but I suspect you will be having too much fun flying! BTW, you being in the UK your only option maybe the sanding of the aileron bottom, you need to check at your end. But what I am trying to say, is don't sweat it. If the aileron is a bit heavy (but balanced) the airplane is going to fly great anyway!



However, I concur with the other forum member. Do question the weight of the paint now that you have time. It maybe OK but get some feedback and see if yours is coming up too heavy.

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:42 am Post subject: aileron balancing

Jan & Rowland

I had a Long EZ too. Another cure for the aileron buzz was Flettner strips

similar to those on the Europa elevator trim tab. A sharp trailing edge is 



emotionally satisfying but is not as efficient as we expect because of the thickness of the boundary layer. That's why Flettner strips were added on the Europa.

Graham

 

    On Wednesday, 30 August 2017, 11:33, n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com> wrote:



  



 --> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>



Rowland,



Not being the designer of the aircraft it's hard to provide a definite opinion about tolerance on the balance. But I can provide you my experience with the LongEZ and an opinion of what I'd do.



My LongEZ developed a well known issue where the ailerons would have a high frequency buzz when in cruise. Upon research, it is written in the Rutan newsletters that this is a common problem with the LongEZ and Rutan adamantly claims it's not flutter (he says if it was flutter you wouldn't be there to tell the story). What the issue is is an effect of engine vibration combined with a little wear in the hinge and a natural frequency that will cause the vibration.



So to the relevant part to your issue. The LongEZ elevator balance could flutter if a little off balance and it is critical. But the aileron is not so critical. The difference is the aeroelastic characteristic of what it is attached to. The canard flexes a lot so flutter will bend the canard and will worsen the flutter to the point of destruction. The wing is too stiff and will hold things in check. If the elevator wont balance you have to throw it away and make a new one. Not so with the ailerons. Again, this is the LongEZ, don't know about the Europa.



When I pulled my aileron out and I checked the balance, it was TE down by quite a bit. But the aircraft flew for 20 years like that and it was even used for racing with no issues. Anyway, he procedure to fix the buzz is to ad teflon liners to the hinge pins to eliminate slop and use a thin lead tape (not the thick wheel balancing stuff) and layer it on the aileron LE nose until the aileron is level. Keep in mind that the nose of the aileron on the LEZ is further forward from the hinge line than in the Europa. Once you find a satisfactory number of layers, you go fly and if you are happy you scuff the paint fore and aft of the lead tape and place a 1 BID layer to make it permanent (which I haven't done yet). Buzz is now gone.



So to your issue (my opinion): You can either place some tape on the balance horns (sides or bottom) or sand some paint off the bottom of the aileron and go fly. Building is fun but flying is more so . Anyway, you will have time to address what to do with it later but I suspect you will be having too much fun flying! BTW, you being in the UK your only option maybe the sanding of the aileron bottom, you need to check at your end. But what I am trying to say, is don't sweat it. If the aileron is a bit heavy (but balanced) the airplane is going to fly great anyway!



However, I concur with the other forum member. Do question the weight of the paint now that you have time. It maybe OK but get some feedback and see if yours is coming up too heavy.



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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472349#472349







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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 395

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:41 am Post subject: Re: aileron balancing

You are correct Graham.



BTW, When I wrote the email, in haste before going to work this morning, I mentioned adding the lead strips on the sides of the balance horns but I missed something. And as I kept hearing when I visited London this summer: "Mind the Gap" 



A quick calculation yields that if you place 366/2=183 grams on each horn you need about 16cm^3 and with a tape that is 3/8" wide x 6.3 mils thick you need about 11 meters. Thanks a lot I think.



So it seems that the option you have is shed some weight on the TE of the aileron is to sand paint off but the question is: are you sure it's a paint issue? Will sanding the paint be enough?



BTW, on the question of tolerance on the balance, and please keep in mind that although I am an Engineer I am not an Aerodynamics, in Engineering there are always tolerances to everything. If something is off a little from nominal and it fails then you have a design problem. With that said, I wouldn't know how far off it can be before it is an issue.



BTW, in the LongEZ, the aileron balance condition is not to the chord line but to the bottom of the surface your are balancing (in the orientation it is being balanced). It is then much less demanding that in the Europa which calls for level chord line (but I need to check on that, I don't have my LongEZ plans here at work but "almost" sure). And to be honest, when I rebalanced my ailerons for the buzz problem, I didn't quite level the bottom surface but I was darn close. Then again, it is documented that the balance of the ailerons in the LongEZ is not as critical as the elevator.



I hope this doesn't stir ugly debates. As a Design Engineer, I am faced with decisions and compromises every day so I am trained to question these things and used to having these conversations. But if there is a lack of information to make a decision that deviates from the instructions, I would err toward the side of meeting the written requirements. Your decision.



Chris

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 634

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:33 am Post subject: Re: aileron balancing

Rowland,



We added an aileron trim motor in the stbd aileron.  This made it quite heavy and we used tungsten carbide from McMaster to achieve balance.  



BTW we tried lead balls embedded in epoxy but we could not get the density of solid lead.  There is a lot of open space between spheres!



The increase in weight (20%-25%) from filling, profiling and paint seems excessive.  Perhaps you can color sand much of it off.



We color sanded all our painted surfaces.  There is good information on the 3M website about doing this and we used 3M products.  There also is a good book available from EAA,  https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/media/aviation-books/2256137300000__how-to-paint-your-own-airplane  The articles are also in back issues of Sport Aviation, around 2005.



Hope this helps.



Jim & Heather

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:28 am Post subject: aileron balancing

Rowland, Much sense from Jim as usual, although I am not 100% clear what he means by colour sanding. I suspect however it is the same process used for wrt & dry sanding down of gel coat, which suggests a reasonable alternative to my more drastic suggestion of sanding it all off- that is put a slurry of very dilute coloured cellulose paint. Sand with wet & dry (actually wet of course!) 600 grit, until all the coloured paint has gone, which has got you down to the low spots of the original paint. You then repeat the process with 1200 grit and finally with 2000 grit. If you can stoach that you will have a perfect finish and may well find you have shed half or more of that weight gain. There are a few more wrinkles to the sanding and I will happily discuss on phone if you want to go down that path. 

Regards, David (GXSDJ)  

 

On 2017-08-30 16:33, h&amp;jeuropa wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>



Rowland,



We added an aileron trim motor in the stbd aileron.  This made it quite heavy and we used tungsten carbide from McMaster to achieve balance.  



BTW we tried lead balls embedded in epoxy but we could not get the density of solid lead.  There is a lot of open space between spheres!



The increase in weight (20%-25%) from filling, profiling and paint seems excessive.  Perhaps you can color sand much of it off.



We color sanded all our painted surfaces.  There is good information on the 3M website about doing this and we used 3M products.  There also is a good book available from EAA,  https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa-shop/media/aviation-books/2256137300000__how-to-paint-your-own-airplane  The articles are also in back issues of Sport Aviation, around 2005.



Hope this helps.



Jim & Heather





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