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Control movements Aileron

 
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Robert Reed



Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

To TR-4 builders

The specifications for the ailerons indicates control movement of +12 & -12 degrees of movement. I just mounted both ailerons and calculated approx +7 & -11 degrees with slightly higher on right wing. Both ailerons have the counter weight hitting before reaching the desired 12 degrees.

Can some of you check your numbers and are getting the 12 degrees both directions. Did you fully balance both ailerons?

Bob Reed

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:57 am    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

Many builders remove the inner skin in the local area to give the counterweight (and aileron) a little more movement.

Some also reshape the counterweight so that there is more movement before it hits.

Mark K.

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/18/17, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net> wrote:

Subject: Control movements Aileron
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, August 18, 2017, 11:47 AM


Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>

To TR-4 builders

The specifications for the ailerons
indicates control movement of +12 & -12 degrees of
movement.  I just mounted both ailerons and calculated
approx +7 & -11 degrees with slightly higher on right
wing.  Both ailerons have the counter weight hitting
before reaching the desired 12 degrees.

Can some of you check your numbers and
are getting the 12 degrees both directions.  Did you
fully balance both ailerons?

Bob Reed

Sent from my iPad

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Robert Reed



Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

Monumental Brain Fart!!!

Can I blame it all on the 100 degree heat?

Visually I kept looking at the up vs down movement and they looked like I had more than enough upward travel. Well I was not seeing things but was using a smart level that was a lot smarter than it's user. I had failed to add in the difference between the neutral position and zero degrees. I was calculating the difference. It turns out that my actual number would give a 11.4 degree minimum on down with more on up. Will that be enough travel?

Bob Reed

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Aug 18, 2017, at 10:47 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net> wrote:



To TR-4 builders

The specifications for the ailerons indicates control movement of +12 & -12 degrees of movement. I just mounted both ailerons and calculated approx +7 & -11 degrees with slightly higher on right wing. Both ailerons have the counter weight hitting before reaching the desired 12 degrees.

Can some of you check your numbers and are getting the 12 degrees both directions. Did you fully balance both ailerons?

Bob Reed

Sent from my iPad






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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

I always thought the aileron travel was woefully inadequate.

Quote:
On Aug 18, 2017, at 11:47 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net> wrote:



To TR-4 builders

The specifications for the ailerons indicates control movement of +12 & -12 degrees of movement. I just mounted both ailerons and calculated approx +7 & -11 degrees with slightly higher on right wing. Both ailerons have the counter weight hitting before reaching the desired 12 degrees.

Can some of you check your numbers and are getting the 12 degrees both directions. Did you fully balance both ailerons?

Bob Reed

Sent from my iPad






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hansoncp(at)netnitco.net
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

I'll have to dig thru my builders notes next time I'm at the hangar to see
what I noted but I'm not having any problem with aileron effectiveness. This
plane is not a fighter just a nice cruiser.

---


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

Been a long time since measuring the travel, but when flying, almost
imperceptible changes in aileron make you turn smartly. I think you have
adequate travel. I don't think I have ever used full aileron travel
Bill

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:43 am    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

Keep in mind that full aileron control is not really for daily use but is more for when you are on short final and get hit my a micro-burst or wake turbulence that puts you on your side. At that moment only full and powerful aileron control will save your life.

I was once on an under 1 mile final into SMO and a large slow moving military helicopter crossed right to left in front of and a little above me. As I hit the wake I was rolled about 90 degrees and needed full aileron to recover. This was in a Grumman Tiger before I got my first KIS.

Mark K

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 8/19/17, Bill Schertz <wschertz343(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Control movements Aileron
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, August 19, 2017, 1:52 PM


Schertz" <wschertz343(at)gmail.com>

Been a long time since measuring the
travel, but when flying, almost
imperceptible changes in aileron make
you turn smartly. I think you have
adequate travel. I don't think I have
ever used full aileron travel
Bill

--


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Robert Reed



Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

Thanks Bill, I think that I am close enough to specs that I shouldn't have any worries.
Sure glad I decided to mount the ailerons BEFORE mounting the wings. Making good progress this summer despite the heat and humidity combining for a feels like in the 105 to 107 range. Hotter than that inside the hangar.
Bob Reed

From: Bill Schertz <wschertz343(at)gmail.com>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Control movements Aileron


--> KIS-List message posted by: "Bill Schertz" <wschertz343(at)gmail.com (wschertz343(at)gmail.com)>

Been a long time since measuring the travel, but when flying, almost

imperceptible changes in aileron make you turn smartly. I think you have

adequate travel. I don't think I have ever used full aileron travel

Bill

--


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:52 am    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

I dont think have ever used full aileron deflection either. As Ed stated: "This is not a fighter but a nice cruiser."

On Saturday, August 19, 2017, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]Thanks Bill, I think that I am close enough to specs that I shouldn't have any worries.
Sure glad I decided to mount the ailerons BEFORE mounting the wings.  Making good progress this summer despite the heat and humidity combining for a feels like in the 105 to 107 range.  Hotter than that inside the hangar. 
Bob Reed

From: Bill Schertz <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wschertz343(at)gmail.com');]wschertz343(at)gmail.com[/url]>
To: [url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kis-list(at)matronics.com');]kis-list(at)matronics.com[/url] 
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Control movements Aileron


--> KIS-List message posted by: "Bill Schertz" <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','wschertz343(at)gmail.com');]wschertz343(at)gmail.com[/url]>

Been a long time since measuring the travel, but when flying, almost

imperceptible changes in aileron make you turn smartly. I think you have

adequate travel. I don't think I have ever used full aileron travel

Bill

--


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

Has anyone done extreme forward slips with full rudder and opposite ailerons.

On Aug 20, 2017, at 8:52 AM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I dont think have ever used full aileron deflection either. As Ed stated: "This is not a fighter but a nice cruiser."

On Saturday, August 19, 2017, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]Thanks Bill, I think that I am close enough to specs that I shouldn't have any worries.
Sure glad I decided to mount the ailerons BEFORE mounting the wings. Making good progress this summer despite the heat and humidity combining for a feels like in the 105 to 107 range. Hotter than that inside the hangar.
Bob Reed

From: Bill Schertz <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'wschertz343(at)gmail.com\');]wschertz343(at)gmail.com[/url]>
To: [url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'kis-list(at)matronics.com\');]kis-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Control movements Aileron


--> KIS-List message posted by: "Bill Schertz" <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'wschertz343(at)gmail.com\');]wschertz343(at)gmail.com[/url]>

Been a long time since measuring the travel, but when flying, almost

imperceptible changes in aileron make you turn smartly. I think you have

adequate travel. I don't think I have ever used full aileron travel

Bill

--


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

I have, not very often but have done them in a KIS4. Full rudder and a significant amount of aileron. HOWEVER, I never do them above 96KIAS. YMMV

Virus-free. www.avg.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Alfred Rosa <fredorosa(at)gmail.com (fredorosa(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Has anyone done extreme forward slips with full rudder and opposite ailerons.  

On Aug 20, 2017, at 8:52 AM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I dont think have ever used full aileron deflection either. As Ed stated: "This is not a fighter but a nice cruiser."

On Saturday, August 19, 2017, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:
[quote]Thanks Bill, I think that I am close enough to specs that I shouldn't have any worries.
Sure glad I decided to mount the ailerons BEFORE mounting the wings.  Making good progress this summer despite the heat and humidity combining for a feels like in the 105 to 107 range.  Hotter than that inside the hangar. 
Bob Reed

From: Bill Schertz <wschertz343(at)gmail.com>
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com 
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Control movements Aileron


--> KIS-List message posted by: "Bill Schertz" <wschertz343(at)gmail.com>

Been a long time since measuring the travel, but when flying, almost

imperceptible changes in aileron make you turn smartly. I think you have

adequate travel. I don't think I have ever used full aileron travel

Bill

--


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hansoncp(at)netnitco.net
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

Bob, looked thru my building notes today and relived some of the work on the
ailerons. My notes include phases such as "more work today on the elusive 12
degree aileron travel", but also an entry that says I resolved the problem.
I also note mixing up some epoxy and some #7 1/2 lead shot from old shotgun
shells and pouring into the square counterweight tube for more weight to
balance. Capped ends with flox. I Dremelled a small depression in the lower
skin to allow the nut for the counterweight attach bolt to fit into to allow
a little extra travel.
Happy building!

---


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Robert Reed



Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 331
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Control movements Aileron Reply with quote

Ed

My phrases were not quite as nice as yours but I had pre-fit everything before I mounted the wingtips which gave me the max needed movement but when I did the final balance I had to move the weight to account for paint. I also found that the installation had to be done in an exact sequence which I photo documented for future reference. Installing my removable hinge pins through less than a half inch wide slot was not fun and I had to alter my plans for safety bolt to safety wire for the pin lock. I ended up with almost exactly 12 degrees of movement. I have the next five days off and hopefully will get the wings installed by Tuesday. If not, Labor Day is the next weekend and I will get them mounted.

Bob

Sent from my iPad

[quote] On Aug 24, 2017, at 7:48 PM, Ed Hanson <hansoncp(at)netnitco.net> wrote:



Bob, looked thru my building notes today and relived some of the work on the ailerons. My notes include phases such as "more work today on the elusive 12 degree aileron travel", but also an entry that says I resolved the problem. I also note mixing up some epoxy and some #7 1/2 lead shot from old shotgun shells and pouring into the square counterweight tube for more weight to balance. Capped ends with flox. I Dremelled a small depression in the lower skin to allow the nut for the counterweight attach bolt to fit into to allow a little extra travel.
Happy building!

---


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