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Advice on intermittent voltage spiking in Jab 3300

 
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BARRY CHECK 6



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 582

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:24 pm    Post subject: Advice on intermittent voltage spiking in Jab 3300 Reply with quote

OUCH!!!!
Sorry Bob ;-(  
And I guess installing a separate belt or direct driven alternator would be quite difficult?
Can you supply me with  schematic of the alternator and electrical system?  I should be able to identify the problem.  BUT!!!  If the only problem is overvoltage the cure should be easy...  I am an EE & ME.
Barry
On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Skyking13 <robertkperry(at)gmail.com (robertkperry(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "Skyking13" <robertkperry(at)gmail.com (robertkperry(at)gmail.com)>

Barry,
Thanks for the quick reply. Although I'll have to talk to some others who actually can translate much of what you've said, the Jabiru 3300 doesn't have a regular alternator, but something with magnets wound into the rear flywheel of the engine with two white wires that are connected to the voltage regulator.
I don't think there are any brushes.

--------
Blue Skies &amp; Tailwinds,
Captain Bob




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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject: Advice on intermittent voltage spiking in Jab 3300 Reply with quote

I think the magnets and pickup you mentioned are not the alternator but
rather the ignition system. The wires from the pickups shouldn't go to
the voltage regulator (I think) but should connect eventually to the
distributors and spark plugs. I can't remember where the electronics
live in the ignition system but I don't think it is the voltage
regulator which is part of a different system entirely.

I think the alternator on the Jabiru 3300 is inside the bright aluminum
frame work on the back of the engine.

Paul
On 7/6/2017 2:24 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for the quick reply. Although I'll have to talk to some others
who actually can translate much of what you've said, the Jabiru 3300
doesn't have a regular alternator, but something with magnets wound
into the rear flywheel of the engine with two white wires that are
connected to the voltage regulator.
I don't think there are any brushes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Advice on intermittent voltage spiking in Jab 3300 Reply with quote

Jabiru owner here.. Please don't make assumptions, this engine does not
have traditional magneto and alternator systems.

The flywheel on the Jabiru engine has two sets of electrical components.
1. Fixed sets of magnets on the outer edge of the flywheel, three sets
on a 3300 engine. These fly by two fixed ignition coils, providing
independent ignition systems. Lawnmower technology. Mechanical
distributors send these to the right spark plugs. This setup equates to
what the magnetos would be on a Lycoming. Has nothing to do with bus
power or charging circuits.

2. A ring with rear-earth magnets, which rotates around a 12-pole fixed
stator. This is a permanent magnet alternator (PMA) which is like a
simple motorcycle dynamo. The output varies from 6V AC when idle, to 40V
AC when running full power. The output is rectified and regulated by a
simple Kubota regulator. This regulator takes two input lines from the
PMA, and delivers two output lines (GND and +12V) to the battery. A
yellow reference wire is tied to the battery +12V pole as well so the
regulator 'knows' the bus voltage.

For the regulator to do its job, you need the following:
1. The regulator must not be broken (duh..)
2. The regulator must receive some cooling air
3. The regulator body must be grounded
4. The regulator output (red, +12V) and reference (yellow) wire must be
firmly connected at the battery +12V pole
5. The regulator ground wire must be firmly connected to the central
ground point on the firewall.

With this, you'll have a well working system. You can expand by using an
OV protection system, but Jabiru does not recommend this.

A drawing for the electrical system is available in the freely
downloadable manuals at www.jabiru.net.au

If you are uncomfortable with this setup then a more traditional
belt-driven alternator setup is available from Rotec.

Rob

On 7/6/2017 11:52 PM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
Quote:


I think the magnets and pickup you mentioned are not the alternator
but rather the ignition system. The wires from the pickups shouldn't
go to the voltage regulator (I think) but should connect eventually to
the distributors and spark plugs. I can't remember where the
electronics live in the ignition system but I don't think it is the
voltage regulator which is part of a different system entirely.

I think the alternator on the Jabiru 3300 is inside the bright
aluminum frame work on the back of the engine.

Paul
On 7/6/2017 2:24 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Thanks for the quick reply. Although I'll have to talk to some others
> who actually can translate much of what you've said, the Jabiru 3300
> doesn't have a regular alternator, but something with magnets wound
> into the rear flywheel of the engine with two white wires that are
> connected to the voltage regulator.
> I don't think there are any brushes.



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BARRY CHECK 6



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 582

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:35 am    Post subject: Advice on intermittent voltage spiking in Jab 3300 Reply with quote

Bob:
I went to the Jabiru web site and reviewed the 3300 engine manual.  Here is a link to that manual:
http://www.jabiru.net.au/Manuals/Engine/JEM3302-7_Inst.pdf

See pages:  14 & 15.
The system is simple enough.  But!  If:
1 - Ground becomes Open, you will lose regulation.
2 - The Yellow (regulation) wire becomes Open you will lose regulation.
3 - I'm not sure what would happen if you connected the B+ wire (pale blue wire) to the #3 pin of the regulator (this is for a second alternator). 
NOW!!!  If there is a DUAL regulator in one box (the gray finned box) and one side of the regular blew.. You maybe able to utilize the pin of the #2 alternator for your needs. 
So:
Do a resistance check of the B+ wire all the way from the regulator to the Battery.
Do a resistance check of the voltage control wire (yellow wire) all the way from the regulator to the Battery.
The manual mentions the use of a BUSS.  If the plane has a Buss, than you include that in your point to point check.  Such as: A to B to C to D...
From your explanation the alternator is putting out - Just too much Output.  So it is the regulation that is failing.
Print out the two pages of the manual and see if they help your understanding of the circuit and what the physical items LQQK like.  Operation seems quite simple.  
OH!  There is always the SWAP method of testing...  Can you get a spare Regulator?
Just make sure you GROUND the Body of the Regulator.
This is done for 3 reasons:
1 - Physical transfer of heat - Heat Sink.
2 - Electrical Ground - To put everything at the same electrical ground potential.
3 - There MAY be part of the circuit (Ground) connected to the regulator case...  Well, that sure sounds like #2 above Wink
You will notice that Pins: 2 and 6 are to the Battery + and - respectively.  Pin 5 is the sense wire.  They use the term Buss...  Oh, they spelled Buss incorrectly...  Single 'S' is what you ride Wink  If on your plane you do not use/utilize a Buss, it can go directly to the B+ side of the battery.  Just make sure it is a good, no Perfect Connection.
One last thing:  Notice in the manual they show Fast-On connectors?  They are good when they work.   But, many are crimped incorrectly.  The crimp tool that makes a U and dimples the connector also causes problems.  Re-Crimp them (easier than R&R) with a proper tool.  
One MORE last thing:  Open up the regulator Connector (LQQKs like a MOLEX connector), inspect for corrosion.  Clean with Contact Cleaner and a wire brush - BOTH halves. I use DIELECTRIC GREASE on those type connectors because they are notorious for corrosion.  Also inspect the back end of the connector...  Corrosion and POOR Crimping of the wires.
Electronics is the game...  Shocking ain't it!
 
Barry
 


On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Skyking13 <robertkperry(at)gmail.com (robertkperry(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "Skyking13" <robertkperry(at)gmail.com (robertkperry(at)gmail.com)>

Barry,
Thanks for the quick reply. Although I'll have to talk to some others who actually can translate much of what you've said, the Jabiru 3300 doesn't have a regular alternator, but something with magnets wound into the rear flywheel of the engine with two white wires that are connected to the voltage regulator.
I don't think there are any brushes.

--------
Blue Skies &amp; Tailwinds,
Captain Bob




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470739#470739






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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:03 am    Post subject: Advice on intermittent voltage spiking in Jab 3300 Reply with quote

Barry,

Have you *EVER* worked on a Jabiru electrical system?? Your advice below contains so many errors, it's not funny anymore.

- There is NO SUCH THING as a dual regulator. Don't even suggest that! The labels 'Alternator #1 and #2' refer to the two AC wires coming from the PMA. Not to a dual regulator or alternator of any kind. Poor choise of names.
- The pale blue wires (pin 1 and 3) are the AC inputs of the regulator. They receive the AC output of the PMA, and NOTHING ELSE!
- The B+ / Battery wire (pin 6) is RED!
- The regulator sense wire (pin 5) is YELLOW!
- The Ground wire (pin 2) is BLACK!

See the schematics and details on page 25 and 26 of that same manual.

Please, please, please do NOT make assumptions, these are NOT toys. Lives depend on it!

Rob

On 7/7/2017 11:34 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:

Quote:
Bob:


I went to the Jabiru web site and reviewed the 3300 engine manual.  Here is a link to that manual:
http://www.jabiru.net.au/Manuals/Engine/JEM3302-7_Inst.pdf



See pages:  14 & 15.


The system is simple enough.  But!  If:
1 - Ground becomes Open, you will lose regulation.
2 - The Yellow (regulation) wire becomes Open you will lose regulation.
3 - I'm not sure what would happen if you connected the B+ wire (pale blue wire) to the #3 pin of the regulator (this is for a second alternator). 
NOW!!!  If there is a DUAL regulator in one box (the gray finned box) and one side of the regular blew... You maybe able to utilize the pin of the #2 alternator for your needs. 


So:
Do a resistance check of the B+ wire all the way from the regulator to the Battery.
Do a resistance check of the voltage control wire (yellow wire) all the way from the regulator to the Battery.
The manual mentions the use of a BUSS.  If the plane has a Buss, than you include that in your point to point check.  Such as: A to B to C to D...


From your explanation the alternator is putting out - Just too much Output.  So it is the regulation that is failing.


Print out the two pages of the manual and see if they help your understanding of the circuit and what the physical items LQQK like.  Operation seems quite simple.  
OH!  There is always the SWAP method of testing...  Can you get a spare Regulator?
Just make sure you GROUND the Body of the Regulator.
This is done for 3 reasons:
1 - Physical transfer of heat - Heat Sink.
2 - Electrical Ground - To put everything at the same electrical ground potential.
3 - There MAY be part of the circuit (Ground) connected to the regulator case...  Well, that sure sounds like #2 above Wink
You will notice that Pins: 2 and 6 are to the Battery + and - respectively.  Pin 5 is the sense wire.  They use the term Buss...  Oh, they spelled Buss incorrectly...  Single 'S' is what you ride Wink  If on your plane you do not use/utilize a Buss, it can go directly to the B+ side of the battery.  Just make sure it is a good, no Perfect Connection.


One last thing:  Notice in the manual they show Fast-On connectors?  They are good when they work.   But, many are crimped incorrectly.  The crimp tool that makes a U and dimples the connector also causes problems.  Re-Crimp them (easier than R&R) with a proper tool.  
One MORE last thing:  Open up the regulator Connector (LQQKs like a MOLEX connector), inspect for corrosion.  Clean with Contact Cleaner and a wire brush - BOTH halves. I use DIELECTRIC GREASE on those type connectors because they are notorious for corrosion.  Also inspect the back end of the connector...  Corrosion and POOR Crimping of the wires.


Electronics is the game...  Shocking ain't it!
 


Barry


 




On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Skyking13 <robertkperry(at)gmail.com (robertkperry(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "Skyking13" <robertkperry(at)gmail.com (robertkperry(at)gmail.com)>

Barry,
Thanks for the quick reply. Although I'll have to talk to some others who actually can translate much of what you've said, the Jabiru 3300 doesn't have a regular alternator, but something with magnets wound into the rear flywheel of the engine with two white wires that are connected to the voltage regulator.
I don't think there are any brushes.

--------
Blue Skies &amp; Tailwinds,
Captain Bob




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470739#470739






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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
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====================================








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Joined: 22 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on intermittent voltage spiking in Jab 3300 Reply with quote

Bob,
Thanks for your explanation of the connections at the regulator. I believe that I've had the yellow sense wire connected to the #1 alternator wire. This seemed to be right as I never had any high voltage problems with my old engine.
Tomorrow morning I'll connect the yellow sense wire to the 12v wire to the battery. I have an electric bus controlled by the master switch...that would work though only with the master on.
A photo of my original installation is attached.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Advice on intermittent voltage spiking in Jab 3300 Reply with quote

If you really did have the yellow wire connected to the alternator, then
you may have caused damage to the regulator. The alternator outputs ~40V
AC and the regulator circuit isn't in any way built for that.

Before changing your wiring, I'd recommend you bench check the regulator
carefully. If you do not have the necessary equipment for that, buy a
new one. They are Kubota RP201-53710, available for about $40 online

On 7/22/2017 5:47 AM, Skyking13 wrote:
Quote:


Bob,
Thanks for your explanation of the connections at the regulator. I believe that I've had the yellow sense wire connected to the #1 alternator wire. This seemed to be right as I never had any high voltage problems with my old engine.
Tomorrow morning I'll connect the yellow sense wire to the 12v wire to the battery. I have an electric bus controlled by the master switch...that would work though only with the master on.
A photo of my original installation is attached.

--------
Blue Skies &amp; Tailwinds,
Captain Bob



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