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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:13 am Post subject: Battery

Hi All,



My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batteries go).

I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and in particular what can be sourced in the US.

Thanks, Paul

dpark748(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:39 am Post subject: Battery

I fitted the EX 900 no problems so far after operating about 50 hours. 



Dave Park

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 8 Sep 2017, at 15:12, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 Hi All,

 

 My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batteries go).

 

 I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and in particular what can be sourced in the US.

 

 Thanks, Paul

r.vogel(at)ggs.ch
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:01 am Post subject: Battery

Hello Paul



I am using Skyrich batteries in mine Europa with Rotax 912S

type HJTX12-FP, since many years in a UL C42 with Rotax 912S,

and a bigger size in mine Grob G109B motor glider for about 4 years.

This batteries are well protected and the price is fair.

I can recommend this batteries to yo. The supplier is located in USA.

See: 

http://www.skyrichbattery.com/Lithium-Ion-Battery/c10/index.html?osCsid=bi2llu12d91g0s90q3tkeeqpr2



Best regards



-- 



Ruedi Vogel

Wiesenweg 6

CH-3380 Wangen a.A.



Am 08.09.2017 um 16:12 schrieb Paul McAllister:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi All,



 My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever 

 batteries go).



 I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, 

 and in particular what can be sourced in the US.



 Thanks, Paul

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 634

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Battery

Paul,



We've been using an Earth X for several years.  Have had no problems.  It has a sophisticated battery management system built in.  We did have to add a diode to up the charging voltage a little.



We did an article in the Europa Flyer about it roughly two years ago.  



Jim & Heather

christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:48 am Post subject: Battery

Hello Heather and Jim:

I am interested in the diode circuit to boost the voltage.

Do you have further information?

Thanks,

Christoph

#223 Wolfville NS

On 2017-09-09, 08:43, "owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of h&amp;jeuropa" <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:



    

    

    Paul,

    

    We've been using an Earth X for several years.  Have had no problems.  It has a sophisticated battery management system built in.  We did have to add a diode to up the charging voltage a little.

    

    We did an article in the Europa Flyer about it roughly two years ago.  

    

    Jim & Heather

    

    

    

    

    Read this topic online here:

    

    http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472698#472698

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:31 am Post subject: Battery

Paul,

  

 The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914  charging system needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging  voltage into the range the lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that  to my attention). A diode on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is  adequate to fool the regulator into thinking the battery is at a slightly lower  voltage than it actually is and so it will up its charge voltage, placing  the battery into proper charging range. I think its 13.9 to 14.6 volts per the  data sheet, if memory serves.

  

 This lithium battery has cell protection.  It has internal circuitry that can remove the battery from the  circuit due to too low or too high voltages (i.e. when it is  overcharged or drained).   A happily charged battery will not  disconnect from the airframe.  It is wise to have a good metal battery  box for these in the unlikely event of a thermal fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax layer  can likely do wonders too.

  

 The weight savings is amazing..  When you hold them in  your hand, they feel like a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine  right up for sure.

  

 Greg



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul  McAllister

Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AM

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Europa-List:  Battery

 

 Hi All, 



 My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever  batteries go).

 



 I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and  in particular what can be sourced in the US.

 



 Thanks, Paul

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:56 am Post subject: Battery

Duncan, Fair enough, but that wasn't my point. The primary 914 (electric) fuel pump runs on  despite the battery being sitched off (or removed for that matter), and the alternator switch also off. I suppose that you could envisage some scenario where an electrical major short or the like burns out all the wiring back to and including the alternator, but simply losing the battery doesn't stop the engine going. 

Regards, David 

   

 

On 2017-09-10 11:40, ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		   

David, 

The AH capacity of the LiPo4 batteries supplied as like-for-like replacements of lead acid batteries is very much reduced (despite higher voltage and higher CCA). One reason they are so light is because the overall pack size is made to be the same as the lead acid "equivalent", but the actual cells hide shyly in one corner of that package; it is largely fresh air. 

So the "equivalent" LiPo4 battery will not stay alive for as long a time for those essential systems that rely upon it, presuming the alternator or an associated part of its system has failed. 

  

Duncan Mcf.  	  Quote: 	
		  ----Original Message---- From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk Date: 10/09/2017 10:33 To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com> Subj: RE: Battery  

Brian, A lot of years ago I found myself over horizon to horizon thick forest, somewhere near the Czech border with all my electrical instruments showing no signs of electricity and my assumption was that my 914 was running on the fuel left in the carb bowls Fortunately my standard checking system found that both master and alternator switches were off and order was restored before everything went quiet (I had just returned my pee bottle to its place under my left thigh support and in doing so had managed to catch the toggle switches with my trouser bottom. I felt that I had to share this slightly embarrassing incident with the Europa community via Matronics in the spirit of the club, and Andy Draper pointed out that if my wiring was as per manual the 914 would continue as the first pump is driven directly from the alternator before its output gets to the  alternator switch. I have subsequently deliberately switched everything off and found this to be true. 

    Which makes me wonder about the exclusion of 914s from the Lithium battery approval. Clearly if your battery blows up you won't be able to get started, but on the face of it if it happens in flight you can still expect to get home, (assuming you can find the way!) 

   Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ 

   

 

On 2017-09-10 08:43, Brian Davies wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    

For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod SM 14337 that gives details of approved Lithium batteries.  Just a note of caution when using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) that automatically disconnects the battery if over or under charged.  The Rotax built in alternator produces avionics damaging voltages when the battery is disconnected. An overvolt protection circuit should be fitted to guard against this. 

  

At the moment the Mod cannot be used for the 914 because it relies on a working electrical system.  The range of batteries will be updated as more data becomes available from the manufactures.  What has already become clear is that not all lithium batteries are suitable. 

  

Brian 

G-DDBD  

    

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs Sent: 09 September 2017 20:30To: europa-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Battery 

 

 

  

Paul, 

  

The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914 charging system needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging voltage into the range the lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that to my attention). A diode on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is adequate to fool the regulator into thinking the battery is at a slightly lower voltage than it actually is and so it will up its charge voltage, placing the battery into proper charging range. I think its 13.9 to 14.6 volts per the data sheet, if memory serves. 

  

This lithium battery has cell protection. It has internal circuitry that can remove the battery from the circuit due to too low or too high voltages (i.e. when it is overcharged or drained).   A happily charged battery will not disconnect from the airframe.  It is wise to have a good metal battery box for these in the unlikely event of a thermal fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax layer can likely do wonders too. 

  

The weight savings is amazing..  When you hold them in your hand, they feel like a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine right up for sure. 

  

Greg 

  

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllisterSent: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AMTo: europa-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Battery  

Hi All,  

  

  

My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batteries go). 

  

  

  

I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and in particular what can be sourced in the US. 

  

  

  

Thanks, Paul 

 

  

      

[/url]   

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gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:26 am Post subject: Battery

Le 10/09/2017 Ã            14:55, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) a Ã©critÂ :

         

      	  Quote: 	
		                  

Â The primary 914 (electric) fuel pump runs             on Â despite the battery being sitched off (or removed for             that matter), and the alternator switch also off. I suppose             that you could envisage some scenario where an electrical             major short or the like burns out all the wiring back to and             including the alternator, but simply losing the battery             doesn't stop the engine going.     	
     David and all,

     

     There is a case that may leave you with a dead 914 engine with such     a setup : a Rotax-Ducati regulator overvoltage failure with a     Lithium battery.

     In such a case the Lithium battery will protect itself by shutting     down, and the regulator will stop supplying the pump with power. The     engine will stop within seconds.

     Considering service life records, the probability of the Rotax     regulator failing is not a remote one. In that case a Lead/acid     battery will still be there and will even mitigate the OV event..

     Of course some may consider Lead/acid is the past and Lithium the     future, but on what basis ?

     

     Some years ago we conducted and in-depth study of the Rotax     alternator/voltage regulator-rectifier assembly, and concluded that     the Rotax regulator combined with the Rotax suggestion for the     wiring the pumps was not the best option for our 914.

     

     Changing from Lead/acid to LiFePo is not a trivial issue, especially     with an electrically dependent engine.

     

     

     -- 

       Best regards,

       Gilles

       http://contrails.free.fr

       http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:32 am Post subject: Battery

Brian, The standard wiring has the alternator going to  rectifier with output going through a 30amp slow blow fuse to the alternator switch with the no 1 fuel pump supplied before the switch. In my case I have fitted a 30 amp switchable contact breaker in place of the alt switch and done away with the fuse - all this with the blessing of inspector  & LAA.  This should be proof against the scenario you mention and it would seem to need two seperate failures, of battery and either alternator or rectifier to stop the no 1 pump. The fuel pump is preceeded by a 5 amp contacr breaker by the way, which seems to add to the safety of the system. 

Regards, David 

   

 

On 2017-09-10 13:47, Brian Davies wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    

Hi David, 

  

I think the LAA are taking a very cautious approach to lithium batteries and this will change with more service experience.  It might be worth someone making a case for the standard Mod to be revised based on your failure analysis, however, if an electrical fault causes the alternator fuse to blow and the lithium battery BMS to disconnect the battery I think you will be in a glider with a 914 but not so in a 912 so there is a slightly higher risk. 

  

Duncan's comment regarding lithium battery capacity is a good one.  The sellers do tend to focus on cranking capacity and tend to ignore total capacity (endurance).  Buying a lithium replacement that has the same total capacity as the lead acid is an expensive proposition so the tendency is to go for a smaller capacity.  Probably not a good idea on an electrically dependant aircraft such as a 914 model. 

  

Brian 

    

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.ukSent: 10 September 2017 10:34To: europa-list(at)matronics.comSubject: RE: Battery 

 

 

  

Brian, A lot of years ago I found myself over horizon to horizon thick forest, somewhere near the Czech border with all my electrical instruments showing no signs of electricity and my assumption was that my 914 was running on the fuel left in the carb bowls Fortunately my standard checking system found that both master and alternator switches were off and order was restored before everything went quiet (I had just returned my pee bottle to its place under my left thigh support and in doing so had managed to catch the toggle switches with my trouser bottom. I felt that I had to share this slightly embarrassing incident with the Europa community via Matronics in the spirit of the club, and Andy Draper pointed out that if my wiring was as per manual the 914 would continue as the first pump is driven directly from the alternator before its output gets to the  alternator switch. I have subsequently deliberately switched everything off and found this to be true. 

    Which makes me wonder about the exclusion of 914s from the Lithium battery approval. Clearly if your battery blows up you won't be able to get started, but on the face of it if it happens in flight you can still expect to get home, (assuming you can find the way!) 

   Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ 

   

  

 

On 2017-09-10 08:43, Brian Davies wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    

For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod SM 14337 that gives details of approved Lithium batteries.  Just a note of caution when using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) that automatically disconnects the battery if over or under charged.  The Rotax built in alternator produces avionics damaging voltages when the battery is disconnected. An overvolt protection circuit should be fitted to guard against this. 

  

At the moment the Mod cannot be used for the 914 because it relies on a working electrical system.  The range of batteries will be updated as more data becomes available from the manufactures.  What has already become clear is that not all lithium batteries are suitable. 

  

Brian 

G-DDBD  

    

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs Sent: 09 September 2017 20:30To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: RE: Battery 

 

 

  

Paul, 

  

The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914 charging system needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging voltage into the range the lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that to my attention). A diode on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is adequate to fool the regulator into thinking the battery is at a slightly lower voltage than it actually is and so it will up its charge voltage, placing the battery into proper charging range. I think its 13.9 to 14.6 volts per the data sheet, if memory serves. 

  

This lithium battery has cell protection. It has internal circuitry that can remove the battery from the circuit due to too low or too high voltages (i.e. when it is overcharged or drained).   A happily charged battery will not disconnect from the airframe.  It is wise to have a good metal battery box for these in the unlikely event of a thermal fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax layer can likely do wonders too. 

  

The weight savings is amazing..  When you hold them in your hand, they feel like a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine right up for sure. 

  

Greg 

  

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Paul McAllisterSent: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AMTo: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: Battery  

Hi All,  

  

  

My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batteries go). 

  

  

  

I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and in particular what can be sourced in the US. 

  

  

  

Thanks, Paul 

 

  

      

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Virus-free. www.avg.com

dpark748(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:35 am Post subject: Battery

I can report that my electrical system is ETX 900 with it's own protection, with Schicke GR6 regulator. 

(Schicke state their Regulator should not be used without over voltage protection). 

My system includes Schicke OVP 15.2. 

The OVP has its own protection/warning light plus a reset switch in case of spurious cut off.

My system charges steady at 14.3 v 

Operated for 25 hours so far without any problem. 

Regards

Dave Park G-LDVO

[quote] On 10 Sep 2017, at 13:55, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk wrote:

 

 Duncan, Fair enough, but that wasn't my point. The primary 914 (electric) fuel pump runs on  despite the battery being sitched off (or removed for that matter), and the alternator switch also off. I suppose that you could envisage some scenario where an electrical major short or the like burns out all the wiring back to and including the alternator, but simply losing the battery doesn't stop the engine going.

 

 Regards, David

 

  

 

  

> On 2017-09-10 11:40, ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net wrote:

> 

> David,

> 

> The AH capacity of the LiPo4 batteries supplied as like-for-like replacements of lead acid batteries is very much reduced (despite higher voltage and higher CCA). One reason they are so light is because the overall pack size is made to be the same as the lead acid "equivalent", but the actual cells hide shyly in one corner of that package; it is largely fresh air.

> 

> So the "equivalent" LiPo4 battery will not stay alive for as long a time for those essential systems that rely upon it, presuming the alternator or an associated part of its system has failed.

> 

>  

> 

> Duncan Mcf.

> 

>> ----Original Message----

>> From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk

>> Date: 10/09/2017 10:33

>> To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

>> Subj: RE: Battery

>> 

>> Brian, A lot of years ago I found myself over horizon to horizon thick forest, somewhere near the Czech border with all my electrical instruments showing no signs of electricity and my assumption was that my 914 was running on the fuel left in the carb bowls Fortunately my standard checking system found that both master and alternator switches were off and order was restored before everything went quiet (I had just returned my pee bottle to its place under my left thigh support and in doing so had managed to catch the toggle switches with my trouser bottom. I felt that I had to share this slightly embarrassing incident with the Europa community via Matronics in the spirit of the club, and Andy Draper pointed out that if my wiring was as per manual the 914 would continue as the first pump is driven directly from the alternator before its output gets to the  alternator switch. I have subsequently deliberately switched everything off and found this to be true.

>> 

>>     Which makes me wonder about the exclusion of 914s from the Lithium battery approval. Clearly if your battery blows up you won't be able to get started, but on the face of it if it happens in flight you can still expect to get home, (assuming you can find the way!)

>> 

>>    Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>> On 2017-09-10 08:43, Brian Davies wrote:

>> 

>> For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod SM 14337 that gives details of approved Lithium batteries.  Just a note of caution when using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) that automatically disconnects the battery if over or under charged.  The Rotax built in alternator produces avionics damaging voltages when the battery is disconnected. An overvolt protection circuit should be fitted to guard against this

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: Battery

Hi Jim, what model EarthX are you using? - Paul



On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 6:43 AM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

 

 Paul,

 

 We've been using an Earth X for several years.Â  Have had no problems.Â  It has a sophisticated battery management system built in.Â  We did have to add a diode to up the charging voltage a little.

 

 We did an article in the Europa Flyer about it roughly two years ago.

 

 Jim & Heather

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472698#472698

 

 

 

 

 

 

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h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 634

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Battery

Paul,



We have an ETX 680C.



We still load test the battery each year during condition inspection to be confident that we have at least 1 hour of endurance using just the battery.  So far the EarthX has not lost capacity the way our old lead acid batteries did.



Jim & Heather

italianjon

Joined: 05 Aug 2015
Posts: 69

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Battery

I use the Aliant X3 in mine, I can recommend that. I have the 912 UL... A friend uses the X4, I think with the 914.



Incredible weight saving at 1.25kgs.



The only issue I seem to have is my regulator. It runs at 13.8V and the battery needs 14.4 for a full charge. So I'm looking into options to up the Bus voltage a bit.

DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:22 am Post subject: Battery

Did you read about the diode trick someone mentioned in this thread to fool the regulator?



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Sep 11, 2017, at 9:12 AM, italianjon <jon.catilli(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I use the Aliant X3 in mine, I can recommend that. I have the 912 UL... A friend uses the X4, I think with the 914.

 

 Incredible weight saving at 1.25kgs.

 

 The only issue I seem to have is my regulator. It runs at 13.8V and the battery needs 14.4 for a full charge. So I'm looking into options to up the Bus voltage a bit.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472793#472793

italianjon

Joined: 05 Aug 2015
Posts: 69

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Battery

Yes, I have. I've spent the evening trying to work out how it works on the standard Ducati Regulator of the 912.



Can anyone share the secret? My googling comes up blank.



Obviously, it's something to do with the voltage drop across the diode fooling the regulator, but I don't know enough about how voltage regulators work to understand it, or how exactly to wire it in. I guess it's not hard, but I don't want to $Â£%^ up a working system with a silly mistake

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 634

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Battery

Here is how the "diode trick" works.  



The Ducatti rectifier/regulator gets the power for it's internal circuits and also senses the aircraft voltage at the C terminal.  It will attempt to maintain 13.5 volts (see Rotax Install Manual, Section 19.4.2).  That is a little low for a lithium battery.  



A basic characteristic of all silicon diodes is that a diode will have a voltage drop of .6 volts.  So by inserting a diode in the wire to the C terminal, when the Ducatti tries to maintain 13.5 volts, the actual voltage output will be .6 volts higher, or 14.1 volts.  Take the wire off your C terminal, connect it to the anode lead of the diode (the end without the band) and connect the cathode lead of the diode to the C terminal of the Ducatti.  Most any generic diode will work, it must have a current rating of around 1 amp.  I used a 1N4001.



Hope this helps.



Jim Butcher

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:03 am Post subject: Re: Battery

Hello Jim,

From what I read in the Rotax Install Manuals, all versions old and new, the Ducati regulator is supposed to delivers 14 plus or minus .3 Volts. Mine consistently regulates at 13,9 - 14 volts. I have been using an SB7800 lithium battery for two years / 200 hours now and that works just fine.

Regards

Remi

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