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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:03 am Post subject: ELT |
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Duncan, Bob will no doubt give you chapter and verse if he is not too busy, but my understanding is that he was tucked into a small recess at the bottom of high, near vertical cliff, which stopped mobile phone, radio & PLB 121.5 access and degraded GPS accuracy. A helicopter was sent out but only went along the land side of the coastline and failed to see him. They might well have been handicapped by the plane having taken off from an unmanned airfield so there was no traceable record of him having gone or where he might be going.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-11-02 09:42, ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net wrote: | Quote: | Was there any resolution as to why, after G-BYSA 'landed' in the North Sea coast and set-off its PLB, nobody ever came?
I appreciate that most alerts (particularly in a marine environment) are false alarms, but are alerts screened in this way?
Duncan McF.
| Quote: | ----Original Message---- From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk Date: 02/11/2017 09:09 To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com> Subj: Re: Re: ELT
Raimo, Yes of course I have looked down on those very remote and rugged spaces in Finland and we do infact have some equally remote and unlandable places in the UK (try flying round all the remote Scottish islands), but it doesn't alter the point that there are few landings where you are not either dead or able to use a PLB. Two or three hundred euros invested in a Smartass is much more likely to save your life than a similar amount spent on an ELT in addition to a PLB.
Much tempted by the idea of some more Aviation beer and Sauna in 2018. Regards, David
PS We shouldn't really get into a 'Mine's bigger than yours' sort of argument, but I find that it is around 620nm from t to bottom of Finland and 660nm top to bottom of UK!
On 2017-11-01 21:09, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Dear David, you are right as usually, but however, think about accident in the remote place (and you have not launched your PLB), ELT is your only hope (if you happen to be alive) . I do understand that it is not so easy to you to understand there are really unpopulated places in the world. Like Finland. You have flown here a lot. Think. Really, all the pilots are not flying in the Great Britain!!! (which is a very little put populated - island somewhere). For example Me, after not-so-succesfull landing to any remote private strip here with my monowheel. To my home strips, where there are people available from hundreds of meters. They just look, maybe!!! Raimo has left his aircraft there, and same time I am loosing maybe my life! In that case, ELT were superb. So far, I have had about 600 landings with my Mono, and still one prop (AirMaster). David, I´m pretty sure You get it! Go on! I know you can have your burst! Or, maybe you need a real Finnish Sauna to get out your real Europa Mind? *** About me /my status: - my Europa OH-XRT is still not flyable but will be during early 2018 * - my Lamco OH-U666 (a bushplane) is flyable now finally after my crash one year ago - my very Beloved Cesna OH-CVK (which I owned 1996-2012) is here back again. - my Antonov AN-2 HA-MDO is in Sweden, but it will be soon here. David, pls fly here duging The 2018 - the cows are away! Just land EFRT 12/30 or 03/21 if you like so. Raimo OH-XRT Finland davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 1.11.2017 klo 20:58:
| Quote: |
Raimo, It's great to hear from you again! hope that your engine woes are sorted and that we can look forward to more accounts of your fascinating flying exploits.
Although there is always great sense in what you say, in this context I would take a slightly different approach. I would say there are two sorts of 'typical' - firstly the sort of accident where you walk away from it and don't need much in the way of help - or if you do then you are in a state to work your mobile, or your PLB assuming you have landed in orderly fashion either in mid ocean or in a remote part of Finland (and there is plenty of that!). The other sort of typical is sadly the sort of accident you do not walk away from and very few of those are survived with or without an ELT. Sadly some 2% of us (i.e. GA pilots in general) die from stall/spin accidents, entirely unsurviveable. My plea would be for folk to address that possibility more seriously. Prevention is the answer, not an ELT to get help more quickly after the event. There are suggestions of how you can address this issue on the (beautiful new) club website in the 'Flying' section.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-11-01 18:29, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Hi Jon,
I do agree.
One more thing: PLB must be launched manually, but ELT should work automatically after your critical impact.
It´s easy to imagine a situation where you have no time to switch on your PLB or you even forget to do it during your possible more or less panic situation
(when trying to survive out from your disaster).
What´s a typical accident? It´s during take off or landing. If shit happens then, PLB is useless!
PLB is very nice when you happen to lose your engine in the high up altitude, or have made a succesfull emergency landing to the remote
(that´s potential for me, here in Finland, which is practically empty [wolves will not call emergency, they just eat you]).
I love my PLB also because I fly regularly over the sea between Finland and Sweden. That flight is 1 hour over open seawater without islands.
Of course I fly high up using typically my very favourite FL69 (Swedish female ATC love my request to use it and that´s why I have no Turbo),
but in the case of silence with my best glide ratio (1:17, w featherable VSuperb AirMaster), I am able to glide say practically about 35 km in theory.
So, there is still a cap almost 200 km = 45 min when it´s easy to monitor your engine and listen strange sounds...
(in a real life I put my autopilot on and start to listen hi-fi music through my HS800 via B&O and usually sleep say half an hour).
I would like to say:
ELT is essential and PLB is a nice extra...
(isn´t it strange that what older you are, that more you are thinking things like that, should be vice versa...) Cheers, Raimo Finland OH-XRT The fastest Europa ever build (and only 4-seater)
italianjon kirjoitti 1.11.2017 klo 17:30:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "italianjon" <jon.catilli(at)gmail.com> (jon.catilli(at)gmail.com)
Just to throw my thoughts on the ELT/PLB argument, as I have been debating for a while on whether to get one. This information came from a VERY reliable source, someone who is involved in the SAR industry.
For the record I had just a PLB, but I now have both.
With an ELT action will always be taken, and it will be immediate, as they have all information readily available through the registration authorities. On a PLB, action will only be taken once it is a confirmed emergency.
I have to admit I thought my leg was being pulled until I saw the forms. On the ELT registration form that I completed, I only completed my details, and that was it. WIth the PLB form I had to complete the contact details of three additional people who know my movements and can be contacted in the event that the PLB is activated.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=474097#474097
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:14 am Post subject: ELT |
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Hi David,
this is fun.
ELT is an interesting question.
Maybe there are few landings where you are not either dead or able to use a PLB in UK.
But in Finland, by statistically, most landings are succesfull ie you are alive and you are able to use your PLB if you like so.
I assume we are talking about forced landings.
Personally I would launch my PLB when airborne and well before contacting the earth.
Smart ass is a nice gizmo, but do we really need it (if we are real Pilots)?
If it really were so lifesaver, I assume it would be mandatory in every ac.
Should you consider also a stick shaker?
Personally I do like my Angle of Attack -system
(you know it´s an essential equipment if you wanna land your fighter to the deck of your aircraft carrier...).
Actually that´s the only way to really know what´s happening right now and how far or how close you are from stalling situation.
Angle of Attack is everything. Speed is nothing, as well as weight, temp, air density or your very personal size. Just AofA!
Also, my Europas original EA stall warner (audio-visual /horn and a giant hight bright blue led in the field of view) works also satisfactorily.
However, I have seen it only when I´m stalling by purpose and every time just before touch down.
BTW I have always used 70 knots during the final until on the ground effect.
Also, when landing to my strip 12/30, total lenght 300 metres.
David, 2018 is coming soon. I will start to prepare my lakeside Sauna for you.
Yes, we should really get into a "Mine´s bigger than your´s sort of argument".
That´s easier to verify in sauna if I call couple of Ladies to join us.
Or should you bring one for you from UK?
I have discussed this thing many times with girls.
Maybe yours is a little longer than mine (40 mn means 6%).
Then you count UK not England and in that case I could count Sweden-Finland...
However, girls arguments that the lenght is nothing - only TTS (The Total Size) matters!
Your area /size (UK) is 242.000 km² (England only 130.000 km²).
My area /size (Finland) is 338.000 km².
So, mine is significantly larger (40%).
So far, most girls have been here with me happy.
Your total population is about 65.000.000 persons and we have 5.500.000.
That means you David have 3.700 m² of UK and I have 61.500 m² of Finland.
That means mine is actually almost 17 times bigger than yours.
This is also argument for ELT & PLB; it is 17 times more valuable here than in UK an average.
I am pretty sure you do agree this.
This land is so atractive that little Russians have tried to get it many times,
but we have pushed them back quite easily every time and will do it again if necessary.
That´s easy because Finnish Airforce have had and have the most succesfull pilots in the world
(pls read the statistics around WWII).
"So few have not been ever so thankful to so few"
I hardly can wait your comments and also sauna test match FIN-UK with girls.
Cheers,
Raimo
Finland
OH-XRT
PS: I checked my Europa´s logbook; actually I have logged 600 flight hours and 800 landings since 2007
(this year unfortunately none w RT, but 50 hours by C172 OH-CVK and LamcoCub OH-U666 + one hour in a hot Air Balloon "Finland 100-years" OH-FIN")
allekirjoitus
(info(at)rwm.fi)
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 2.11.2017 klo 11:09:
| Quote: |
Raimo, Yes of course I have looked down on those very remote and rugged spaces in Finland and we do infact have some equally remote and unlandable places in the UK (try flying round all the remote Scottish islands), but it doesn't alter the point that there are few landings where you are not either dead or able to use a PLB. Two or three hundred euros invested in a Smartass is much more likely to save your life than a similar amount spent on an ELT in addition to a PLB.Â
  Much tempted by the idea of some more Aviation beer and Sauna in 2018. Regards, David
PS We shouldn't really get into a 'Mine's bigger than yours' sort of argument, but I find that it is around 620nm from t to bottom of Finland and 660nm top to bottom of UK!
 Â
On 2017-11-01 21:09, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Dear David, you are right as usually, but however, think about accident in the remote place (and you have not launched your PLB),
ELT is your only hope (if you happen to be alive) . I do understand that it is not so easy to you to understand there are really unpopulated places in the world.
Like Finland. You have flown here a lot. Think.
Really, all the pilots are not flying in the Great Britain!!!
(which is a very little put populated - island somewhere).
For example Me, after not-so-succesfull landing to any remote private strip here with my monowheel.
To my home strips, where there are people available from hundreds of meters. They just look, maybe!!!
Raimo has left his aircraft there, and same time I am loosing maybe my life! In that case, ELT were superb.
So far, I have had about 600 landings with my Mono, and still one prop (AirMaster).
David, I´m pretty sure You get it!
Go on! I know you can have your burst!
Or, maybe you need a real Finnish Sauna to get out your real Europa Mind?
***
About me /my status:
- my Europa OH-XRT is still not flyable but will be during early 2018 *
- my Lamco OH-U666 (a bushplane) is flyable now finally after my crash one year ago
- my very Beloved Cesna OH-CVK (which I owned 1996-2012) is here back again.
- my Antonov AN-2 HA-MDO is in Sweden, but it will be soon here.
David,
pls fly here duging The 2018 - the cows are away!
Just land EFRT 12/30 or 03/21 if you like so.
Raimo
OH-XRT
Finland
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 1.11.2017 klo 20:58:
| Quote: |
Â
Raimo, It's great to hear from you again! hope that your engine woes are sorted and that we can look forward to more accounts of your fascinating flying exploits.
  Although there is always great sense in what you say, in this context I would take a slightly different approach. I would say there are two sorts of 'typical' - firstly the sort of accident where you walk away from it and don't need much in the way of help - or if you do then you are in a state to work your mobile, or your PLB assuming you have landed in orderly fashion either in mid ocean or in a remote part of Finland (and there is plenty of that!). The other sort of typical is sadly the sort of accident you do not walk away from and very few of those are survived with or without an ELT. Sadly some 2% of us (i.e. GA pilots in general) die from stall/spin accidents, entirely unsurviveable. My plea would be for folk to address that possibility more seriously. Prevention is the answer, not an ELT to get help more quickly after the event. There are suggestions of how you can address this issue on the (beautiful new) club website in the 'Flying' section.
   Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
 Â
On 2017-11-01 18:29, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Hi Jon,
I do agree.
One more thing: PLB must be launched manually, but ELT should work automatically after your critical impact.
It´s easy to imagine a situation where you have no time to switch on your PLB or you even forget to do it during your possible more or less panic situation
(when trying to survive out from your disaster).
What´s a typical accident? It´s during take off or landing. If shit happens then, PLB is useless!
PLB is very nice when you happen to lose your engine in the high up altitude, or have made a succesfull emergency landing to the remote
(that´s potential for me, here in Finland, which is practically empty [wolves will not call emergency, they just eat you]).
I love my PLB also because I fly regularly over the sea between Finland and Sweden. That flight is 1 hour over open seawater without islands.
Of course I fly high up using typically my very favourite FL69 (Swedish female ATC love my request to use it and that´s why I have no Turbo),
but in the case of silence with my best glide ratio (1:17, w featherable VSuperb AirMaster), I am able to glide say practically about 35 km in theory.
So, there is still a cap almost 200 km = 45 min when it´s easy to monitor your engine and listen strange sounds...
(in a real life I put my autopilot on and start to listen hi-fi music through my HS800 via B&O and usually sleep say half an hour).Â
I would like to say:
ELT is essential and PLB is a nice extra...
(isn´t it strange that what older you are, that more you are thinking things like that, should be vice versa...) Cheers,
Raimo
Finland
OH-XRT
The fastest Europa ever build
(and only 4-seater)
 Â
italianjon kirjoitti 1.11.2017 klo 17:30:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "italianjon" <jon.catilli(at)gmail.com> (jon.catilli(at)gmail.com)
Just to throw my thoughts on the ELT/PLB argument, as I have been debating for a while on whether to get one. This information came from a VERY reliable source, someone who is involved in the SAR industry.
For the record I had just a PLB, but I now have both.
With an ELT action will always be taken, and it will be immediate, as they have all information readily available through the registration authorities. On a PLB, action will only be taken once it is a confirmed emergency.
I have to admit I thought my leg was being pulled until I saw the forms. On the ELT registration form that I completed, I only completed my details, and that was it. WIth the PLB form I had to complete the contact details of three additional people who know my movements and can be contacted in the event that the PLB is activated.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=474097#474097
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:50 am Post subject: ELT |
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Raimo, I like the Smartass because it is simple, cheap and very effective, but any device giving warnin of impending stall coming at you through you headset in a way you cannot ignore is good. Certainly it should be related to angle of attack rather than raw speed, but Smartass is g compensated so that its trigger levels are effectively the same as if measuring AOA, since there is a precise mathematical relationship between air speed, g forces and AOA. The AOA systems I have come across cost the wrong side of £1000 and are complex to fit, whilst Smartass costs £200 and is dead simple to fit. It also for good measure reminds you to put the gear down!. The standard Europa stall warner with a buzzer in the head rest is in my experience next to useless and has no doubt been wingeing almost inaudibly (to the ageing ear equipped with the latest ANR headsets) in all the (significant number) of Europa stall spin accidents.
How many fatal accidents are you aware of where an ELT saved the day? That is where the pilot survive the landing was unable to summon help and died before help arrived but could have been saved had he been found within a few hours. No doubt there are some, but I cannot recall any.
Regards, David
On 2017-11-02 11:12, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Hi David,
this is fun.
ELT is an interesting question. Maybe there are few landings where you are not either dead or able to use a PLB in UK. But in Finland, by statistically, most landings are succesfull ie you are alive and you are able to use your PLB if you like so. I assume we are talking about forced landings. Personally I would launch my PLB when airborne and well before contacting the earth. Smart ass is a nice gizmo, but do we really need it (if we are real Pilots)? If it really were so lifesaver, I assume it would be mandatory in every ac. Should you consider also a stick shaker? Personally I do like my Angle of Attack -system (you know it´s an essential equipment if you wanna land your fighter to the deck of your aircraft carrier...). Actually that´s the only way to really know what´s happening right now and how far or how close you are from stalling situation. Angle of Attack is everything. Speed is nothing, as well as weight, temp, air density or your very personal size. Just AofA! Also, my Europas original EA stall warner (audio-visual /horn and a giant hight bright blue led in the field of view) works also satisfactorily. However, I have seen it only when I´m stalling by purpose and every time just before touch down. BTW I have always used 70 knots during the final until on the ground effect. Also, when landing to my strip 12/30, total lenght 300 metres. David, 2018 is coming soon. I will start to prepare my lakeside Sauna for you. Yes, we should really get into a "Mine´s bigger than your´s sort of argument". That´s easier to verify in sauna if I call couple of Ladies to join us. Or should you bring one for you from UK? I have discussed this thing many times with girls. Maybe yours is a little longer than mine (40 mn means 6%). Then you count UK not England and in that case I could count Sweden-Finland... However, girls arguments that the lenght is nothing - only TTS (The Total Size) matters! Your area /size (UK) is 242.000 km² (England only 130.000 km²). My area /size (Finland) is 338.000 km². So, mine is significantly larger (40%). So far, most girls have been here with me happy. Your total population is about 65.000.000 persons and we have 5.500.000. That means you David have 3.700 m² of UK and I have 61.500 m² of Finland. That means mine is actually almost 17 times bigger than yours. This is also argument for ELT & PLB; it is 17 times more valuable here than in UK an average. I am pretty sure you do agree this. This land is so atractive that little Russians have tried to get it many times, but we have pushed them back quite easily every time and will do it again if necessary. That´s easy because Finnish Airforce have had and have the most succesfull pilots in the world (pls read the statistics around WWII). "So few have not been ever so thankful to so few" I hardly can wait your comments and also sauna test match FIN-UK with girls. Cheers, Raimo Finland OH-XRT PS: I checked my Europa´s logbook; actually I have logged 600 flight hours and 800 landings since 2007 (this year unfortunately none w RT, but 50 hours by C172 OH-CVK and LamcoCub OH-U666 + one hour in a hot Air Balloon "Finland 100-years" OH-FIN")
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 2.11.2017 klo 11:09:
| Quote: |
Raimo, Yes of course I have looked down on those very remote and rugged spaces in Finland and we do infact have some equally remote and unlandable places in the UK (try flying round all the remote Scottish islands), but it doesn't alter the point that there are few landings where you are not either dead or able to use a PLB. Two or three hundred euros invested in a Smartass is much more likely to save your life than a similar amount spent on an ELT in addition to a PLB.
Much tempted by the idea of some more Aviation beer and Sauna in 2018. Regards, David
PS We shouldn't really get into a 'Mine's bigger than yours' sort of argument, but I find that it is around 620nm from t to bottom of Finland and 660nm top to bottom of UK!
On 2017-11-01 21:09, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Dear David, you are right as usually, but however, think about accident in the remote place (and you have not launched your PLB), ELT is your only hope (if you happen to be alive) . I do understand that it is not so easy to you to understand there are really unpopulated places in the world. Like Finland. You have flown here a lot. Think. Really, all the pilots are not flying in the Great Britain!!! (which is a very little put populated - island somewhere). For example Me, after not-so-succesfull landing to any remote private strip here with my monowheel. To my home strips, where there are people available from hundreds of meters. They just look, maybe!!! Raimo has left his aircraft there, and same time I am loosing maybe my life! In that case, ELT were superb. So far, I have had about 600 landings with my Mono, and still one prop (AirMaster). David, I´m pretty sure You get it! Go on! I know you can have your burst! Or, maybe you need a real Finnish Sauna to get out your real Europa Mind? *** About me /my status: - my Europa OH-XRT is still not flyable but will be during early 2018 * - my Lamco OH-U666 (a bushplane) is flyable now finally after my crash one year ago - my very Beloved Cesna OH-CVK (which I owned 1996-2012) is here back again. - my Antonov AN-2 HA-MDO is in Sweden, but it will be soon here. David, pls fly here duging The 2018 - the cows are away! Just land EFRT 12/30 or 03/21 if you like so. Raimo OH-XRT Finland davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 1.11.2017 klo 20:58:
| Quote: |
Raimo, It's great to hear from you again! hope that your engine woes are sorted and that we can look forward to more accounts of your fascinating flying exploits.
Although there is always great sense in what you say, in this context I would take a slightly different approach. I would say there are two sorts of 'typical' - firstly the sort of accident where you walk away from it and don't need much in the way of help - or if you do then you are in a state to work your mobile, or your PLB assuming you have landed in orderly fashion either in mid ocean or in a remote part of Finland (and there is plenty of that!). The other sort of typical is sadly the sort of accident you do not walk away from and very few of those are survived with or without an ELT. Sadly some 2% of us (i.e. GA pilots in general) die from stall/spin accidents, entirely unsurviveable. My plea would be for folk to address that possibility more seriously. Prevention is the answer, not an ELT to get help more quickly after the event. There are suggestions of how you can address this issue on the (beautiful new) club website in the 'Flying' section.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-11-01 18:29, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Hi Jon,
I do agree.
One more thing: PLB must be launched manually, but ELT should work automatically after your critical impact.
It´s easy to imagine a situation where you have no time to switch on your PLB or you even forget to do it during your possible more or less panic situation
(when trying to survive out from your disaster).
What´s a typical accident? It´s during take off or landing. If shit happens then, PLB is useless!
PLB is very nice when you happen to lose your engine in the high up altitude, or have made a succesfull emergency landing to the remote
(that´s potential for me, here in Finland, which is practically empty [wolves will not call emergency, they just eat you]).
I love my PLB also because I fly regularly over the sea between Finland and Sweden. That flight is 1 hour over open seawater without islands.
Of course I fly high up using typically my very favourite FL69 (Swedish female ATC love my request to use it and that´s why I have no Turbo),
but in the case of silence with my best glide ratio (1:17, w featherable VSuperb AirMaster), I am able to glide say practically about 35 km in theory.
So, there is still a cap almost 200 km = 45 min when it´s easy to monitor your engine and listen strange sounds...
(in a real life I put my autopilot on and start to listen hi-fi music through my HS800 via B&O and usually sleep say half an hour).
I would like to say:
ELT is essential and PLB is a nice extra...
(isn´t it strange that what older you are, that more you are thinking things like that, should be vice versa...) Cheers, Raimo Finland OH-XRT The fastest Europa ever build (and only 4-seater)
italianjon kirjoitti 1.11.2017 klo 17:30:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "italianjon" <jon.catilli(at)gmail.com> (jon.catilli(at)gmail.com)
Just to throw my thoughts on the ELT/PLB argument, as I have been debating for a while on whether to get one. This information came from a VERY reliable source, someone who is involved in the SAR industry.
For the record I had just a PLB, but I now have both.
With an ELT action will always be taken, and it will be immediate, as they have all information readily available through the registration authorities. On a PLB, action will only be taken once it is a confirmed emergency.
I have to admit I thought my leg was being pulled until I saw the forms. On the ELT registration form that I completed, I only completed my details, and that was it. WIth the PLB form I had to complete the contact details of three additional people who know my movements and can be contacted in the event that the PLB is activated.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=474097#474097
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Paul M 383
Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 97
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:13 am Post subject: ELT |
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From the AAIB Report (available from the AAIB website):
“...activated his Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) but had reached safety before help arrived...â€
And
“The pilot’s PLB was equipped with a 406 MHz transmitter, which is detectable by satellites of the Cospas-Sarsat Programme. In order to determine an approximate position of the activated beacon, more than one satellite pass was required.
At 1036 hrs, a downlink from a satellite pass alerted the UK Aeronautical Rescue Co-ordination Centre (ARCC) to the activation of the beacon. A further satellite pass at 1056 hrs was required to resolve the beacon’s location in the approximate area of the accident. The ARCC attempted to contact the beacon’s registered owner (the pilot) and made further enquiries, to determine the nature of the incident and decide on the appropriate response1 . At 1108 hrs, a land-based Coastguard rescue team was tasked to the area of the accident. This was followed later by the deployment of RNLI lifeboats and a SAR helicopter.
The ARCC commented that GPS-enabled PLB’s will generally allow much quicker location of the transmitter than those without this capability. Additionally, the more information and, in particular, contact details that owners include when registering a PLB, the quicker the ARCC can respond and the higher the probability of them deploying the correct rescue assets.
Additional information on what happens when a PLB is activated can be found at www.cospas-sarsat.int/en/â€
HTH
Paul M
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ami-mcfadyean(at)talktalk.net
Sent: 02 November 2017 09:43
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: ELT
Was there any resolution as to why, after G-BYSA 'landed' in the North Sea coast and set-off its PLB, nobody ever came?
I appreciate that most alerts (particularly in a marine environment) are false alarms, but are alerts screened in this way?
Duncan McF.
<>
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: ELT |
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I appreciate my SmartAss....very effective, and did indeed nag me when i was once distracted (at altitude though) in my little underpowered HB, to my pleasant surprise 
On Nov 2, 2017, at 11:44 AM, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
| Quote: |
Raimo, I like the Smartass because it is simple, cheap and very effective, but any device giving warnin of impending stall coming at you through you headset in a way you cannot ignore is good. Certainly it should be related to angle of attack rather than raw speed, but Smartass is g compensated so that its trigger levels are effectively the same as if measuring AOA, since there is a precise mathematical relationship between air speed, g forces and AOA. The AOA systems I have come across cost the wrong side of £1000 and are complex to fit, whilst Smartass costs £200 and is dead simple to fit. It also for good measure reminds you to put the gear down!. The standard Europa stall warner with a buzzer in the head rest is in my experience next to useless and has no doubt been wingeing almost inaudibly (to the ageing ear equipped with the latest ANR headsets) in all the (significant number) of Europa stall spin accidents.
How many fatal accidents are you aware of where an ELT saved the day? That is where the pilot survive the landing was unable to summon help and died before help arrived but could have been saved had he been found within a few hours. No doubt there are some, but I cannot recall any.
Regards, David
On 2017-11-02 11:12, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Hi David,
this is fun.
ELT is an interesting question. Maybe there are few landings where you are not either dead or able to use a PLB in UK.
But in Finland, by statistically, most landings are succesfull ie you are alive and you are able to use your PLB if you like so.
I assume we are talking about forced landings.
Personally I would launch my PLB when airborne and well before contacting the earth.
Smart ass is a nice gizmo, but do we really need it (if we are real Pilots)?
If it really were so lifesaver, I assume it would be mandatory in every ac.
Should you consider also a stick shaker?
Personally I do like my Angle of Attack -system
(you know it´s an essential equipment if you wanna land your fighter to the deck of your aircraft carrier...).
Actually that´s the only way to really know what´s happening right now and how far or how close you are from stalling situation.
Angle of Attack is everything. Speed is nothing, as well as weight, temp, air density or your very personal size. Just AofA!
Also, my Europas original EA stall warner (audio-visual /horn and a giant hight bright blue led in the field of view) works also satisfactorily.
However, I have seen it only when I´m stalling by purpose and every time just before touch down.
BTW I have always used 70 knots during the final until on the ground effect.
Also, when landing to my strip 12/30, total lenght 300 metres.
David, 2018 is coming soon. I will start to prepare my lakeside Sauna for you.
Yes, we should really get into a "Mine´s bigger than your´s sort of argument".
That´s easier to verify in sauna if I call couple of Ladies to join us.
Or should you bring one for you from UK?
I have discussed this thing many times with girls.
Maybe yours is a little longer than mine (40 mn means 6%).
Then you count UK not England and in that case I could count Sweden-Finland...
However, girls arguments that the lenght is nothing - only TTS (The Total Size) matters!
Your area /size (UK) is 242.000 km² (England only 130.000 km²).
My area /size (Finland) is 338.000 km².
So, mine is significantly larger (40%).
So far, most girls have been here with me happy.
Your total population is about 65.000.000 persons and we have 5.500.000.
That means you David have 3.700 m² of UK and I have 61.500 m² of Finland.
That means mine is actually almost 17 times bigger than yours.
This is also argument for ELT & PLB; it is 17 times more valuable here than in UK an average.
I am pretty sure you do agree this.
This land is so atractive that little Russians have tried to get it many times,
but we have pushed them back quite easily every time and will do it again if necessary.
That´s easy because Finnish Airforce have had and have the most succesfull pilots in the world
(pls read the statistics around WWII).
"So few have not been ever so thankful to so few"
I hardly can wait your comments and also sauna test match FIN-UK with girls.
Cheers,
Raimo
Finland
OH-XRT
PS: I checked my Europa´s logbook; actually I have logged 600 flight hours and 800 landings since 2007
(this year unfortunately none w RT, but 50 hours by C172 OH-CVK and LamcoCub OH-U666 + one hour in a hot Air Balloon "Finland 100-years" OH-FIN")
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 2.11.2017 klo 11:09:
| Quote: |
Raimo, Yes of course I have looked down on those very remote and rugged spaces in Finland and we do infact have some equally remote and unlandable places in the UK (try flying round all the remote Scottish islands), but it doesn't alter the point that there are few landings where you are not either dead or able to use a PLB. Two or three hundred euros invested in a Smartass is much more likely to save your life than a similar amount spent on an ELT in addition to a PLB.
Much tempted by the idea of some more Aviation beer and Sauna in 2018. Regards, David
PS We shouldn't really get into a 'Mine's bigger than yours' sort of argument, but I find that it is around 620nm from t to bottom of Finland and 660nm top to bottom of UK!
On 2017-11-01 21:09, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Dear David, you are right as usually, but however, think about accident in the remote place (and you have not launched your PLB),
ELT is your only hope (if you happen to be alive) . I do understand that it is not so easy to you to understand there are really unpopulated places in the world.
Like Finland. You have flown here a lot. Think.
Really, all the pilots are not flying in the Great Britain!!!
(which is a very little put populated - island somewhere).
For example Me, after not-so-succesfull landing to any remote private strip here with my monowheel.
To my home strips, where there are people available from hundreds of meters. They just look, maybe!!!
Raimo has left his aircraft there, and same time I am loosing maybe my life! In that case, ELT were superb.
So far, I have had about 600 landings with my Mono, and still one prop (AirMaster).
David, I´m pretty sure You get it!
Go on! I know you can have your burst!
Or, maybe you need a real Finnish Sauna to get out your real Europa Mind?
***
About me /my status:
- my Europa OH-XRT is still not flyable but will be during early 2018 *
- my Lamco OH-U666 (a bushplane) is flyable now finally after my crash one year ago
- my very Beloved Cesna OH-CVK (which I owned 1996-2012) is here back again.
- my Antonov AN-2 HA-MDO is in Sweden, but it will be soon here.
David,
pls fly here duging The 2018 - the cows are away!
Just land EFRT 12/30 or 03/21 if you like so.
Raimo
OH-XRT
Finland
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 1.11.2017 klo 20:58:
| Quote: |
Raimo, It's great to hear from you again! hope that your engine woes are sorted and that we can look forward to more accounts of your fascinating flying exploits.
Although there is always great sense in what you say, in this context I would take a slightly different approach. I would say there are two sorts of 'typical' - firstly the sort of accident where you walk away from it and don't need much in the way of help - or if you do then you are in a state to work your mobile, or your PLB assuming you have landed in orderly fashion either in mid ocean or in a remote part of Finland (and there is plenty of that!). The other sort of typical is sadly the sort of accident you do not walk away from and very few of those are survived with or without an ELT. Sadly some 2% of us (i.e. GA pilots in general) die from stall/spin accidents, entirely unsurviveable. My plea would be for folk to address that possibility more seriously. Prevention is the answer, not an ELT to get help more quickly after the event. There are suggestions of how you can address this issue on the (beautiful new) club website in the 'Flying' section.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-11-01 18:29, Raimo Toivio wrote: | Quote: |
Hi Jon,
I do agree.
One more thing: PLB must be launched manually, but ELT should work automatically after your critical impact.
It´s easy to imagine a situation where you have no time to switch on your PLB or you even forget to do it during your possible more or less panic situation
(when trying to survive out from your disaster).
What´s a typical accident? It´s during take off or landing. If shit happens then, PLB is useless!
PLB is very nice when you happen to lose your engine in the high up altitude, or have made a succesfull emergency landing to the remote
(that´s potential for me, here in Finland, which is practically empty [wolves will not call emergency, they just eat you]).
I love my PLB also because I fly regularly over the sea between Finland and Sweden. That flight is 1 hour over open seawater without islands.
Of course I fly high up using typically my very favourite FL69 (Swedish female ATC love my request to use it and that´s why I have no Turbo),
but in the case of silence with my best glide ratio (1:17, w featherable VSuperb AirMaster), I am able to glide say practically about 35 km in theory.
So, there is still a cap almost 200 km = 45 min when it´s easy to monitor your engine and listen strange sounds...
(in a real life I put my autopilot on and start to listen hi-fi music through my HS800 via B&O and usually sleep say half an hour).
I would like to say:
ELT is essential and PLB is a nice extra...
(isn´t it strange that what older you are, that more you are thinking things like that, should be vice versa...) Cheers,
Raimo
Finland
OH-XRT
The fastest Europa ever build
(and only 4-seater)
italianjon kirjoitti 1.11.2017 klo 17:30:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "italianjon" <jon.catilli(at)gmail.com> (jon.catilli(at)gmail.com)
Just to throw my thoughts on the ELT/PLB argument, as I have been debating for a while on whether to get one. This information came from a VERY reliable source, someone who is involved in the SAR industry.
For the record I had just a PLB, but I now have both.
With an ELT action will always be taken, and it will be immediate, as they have all information readily available through the registration authorities. On a PLB, action will only be taken once it is a confirmed emergency.
I have to admit I thought my leg was being pulled until I saw the forms. On the ELT registration form that I completed, I only completed my details, and that was it. WIth the PLB form I had to complete the contact details of three additional people who know my movements and can be contacted in the event that the PLB is activated.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=474097#474097
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bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:44 am Post subject: ELT |
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Hi Duncan
Good question. My splash in the North Sea was more than a year ago now. I am delighted to say I have flown a further 130 hours since in Megg my new Mono
To add to both your and David’s earlier comments.
Being under a towering object (I.e. cliff) inhibits the signal.
HM Coastguard do have to contend with spurious and false alarm signals. Consequently they do, quite reasonably, execute checks on all phone numbers that they have recorded for the pilot as well as contacting other organisations, home airport, nearby airport before committing resources. Inevitably this takes time.
So whenever flying over the sea file a Flight Plan and have appropriate survival kit ready.
The latest technology GPS PLB’s identify position to within a few metres.
The older technology GPS PLB’s less so. Sometimes many kilometres until further satellite passes are possible. If your existing PLB is more than 7 years old it is possibly worth revisiting its specification and comparing it to the latest models.
Extract from final AAIB Report on GBYSA follows;
The pilot’s PLB was equipped with a 406 MHz transmitter, which is detectable by satellites of the Cospas-Sarsat Programme. In order to determine an approximate position of the activated beacon, more than one satellite pass was required.
At 1036 hrs, a downlink from a satellite pass alerted the UK Aeronautical Rescue Co-ordination Centre (ARCC) to the activation of the beacon. A further satellite pass at 1056 hrs was required to resolve the beacon’s location in the approximate area of the accident. The ARCC attempted to contact the beacon’s registered owner (the pilot) and made further enquiries, to determine the nature of the incident and decide on the appropriate response1. At 1108 hrs, a land-based Coastguard rescue team was tasked to the area of the accident. This was followed later by the deployment of RNLI lifeboats and a SAR helicopter.
The ARCC commented that GPS-enabled PLB’s will generally allow much quicker location of the transmitter than those without this capability. Additionally, the more information and, in particular, contact details that owners include when registering a PLB, the quicker the ARCC can respond and the higher the probability of them deploying the correct rescue assets.
Additional information on what happens when a PLB is activated can be found at
www.cospas-sarsat.int/en/
Regards
Bob
http://www.theeuropaclub.org/
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:32 am Post subject: ELT |
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Bob, Not quite clear whether your PLB had GPS included. David
On 2017-11-03 08:41, Bob Hitchcock wrote: | Quote: | Hi Duncan
Good question. My splash in the North Sea was more than a year ago now. I am delighted to say I have flown a further 130 hours since in Megg my new Mono
To add to both your and David's earlier comments.
Being under a towering object (I.e. cliff) inhibits the signal.
HM Coastguard do have to contend with spurious and false alarm signals. Consequently they do, quite reasonably, execute checks on all phone numbers that they have recorded for the pilot as well as contacting other organisations, home airport, nearby airport before committing resources. Inevitably this takes time.
So whenever flying over the sea file a Flight Plan and have appropriate survival kit ready.
The latest technology GPS PLB's identify position to within a few metres.
The older technology GPS PLB's less so. Sometimes many kilometres until further satellite passes are possible. If your existing PLB is more than 7 years old it is possibly worth revisiting its specification and comparing it to the latest models.
Extract from final AAIB Report on GBYSA follows;
The pilot's PLB was equipped with a 406 MHz transmitter, which is detectable by satellites of the Cospas-Sarsat Programme. In order to determine an approximate position of the activated beacon, more than one satellite pass was required.
At 1036 hrs, a downlink from a satellite pass alerted the UK Aeronautical Rescue Co-ordination Centre (ARCC) to the activation of the beacon. A further satellite pass at 1056 hrs was required to resolve the beacon's location in the approximate area of the accident. The ARCC attempted to contact the beacon's registered owner (the pilot) and made further enquiries, to determine the nature of the incident and decide on the appropriate response1. At 1108 hrs, a land-based Coastguard rescue team was tasked to the area of the accident. This was followed later by the deployment of RNLI lifeboats and a SAR helicopter.
The ARCC commented that GPS-enabled PLB's will generally allow much quicker location of the transmitter than those without this capability. Additionally, the more information and, in particular, contact details that owners include when registering a PLB, the quicker the ARCC can respond and the higher the probability of them deploying the correct rescue assets.
Additional information on what happens when a PLB is activated can be found at
www.cospas-sarsat.int/en/
Regards
Bob
http://www.theeuropaclub.org/
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Paul M 383
Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 97
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:00 am Post subject: ELT |
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"...it is around 620nm from t to bottom of Finland and 660nm top to bottom of UK!"
UK population 65.6 M
Finnish population 5.5 M
Relative chances of (crash) landing near a populated area (and therefore help)?
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk
Sent: 02 November 2017 09:10
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: ELT
Raimo, Yes of course I have looked down on those very remote and rugged spaces in Finland and we do infact have some equally remote and unlandable places in the UK (try flying round all the remote Scottish islands), but it doesn't alter the point that there are few landings where you are not either dead or able to use a PLB. Two or three hundred euros invested in a Smartass is much more likely to save your life than a similar amount spent on an ELT in addition to a PLB.Â
  Much tempted by the idea of some more Aviation beer and Sauna in 2018. Regards, David
PS We shouldn't really get into a 'Mine's bigger than yours' sort of argument, but I find that it is around 620nm from t to bottom of Finland and 660nm top to bottom of UK!
Â
Â
On 2017-11-01 21:09, Raimo Toivio wrote:
Dear David,
you are right as usually, but however, think about accident in the remote place (and you have not launched your PLB),
ELT is your only hope (if you happen to be alive) . I do understand that it is not so easy to you to understand there are really unpopulated places in the world.
Like Finland. You have flown here a lot. Think.
Really, all the pilots are not flying in the Great Britain!!!
(which is a very little put populated - island somewhere).
For example Me, after not-so-succesfull landing to any remote private strip here with my monowheel.
To my home strips, where there are people available from hundreds of meters. They just look, maybe!!!
Raimo has left his aircraft there, and same time I am loosing maybe my life! In that case, ELT were superb.
So far, I have had about 600 landings with my Mono, and still one prop (AirMaster).
David, I´m pretty sure You get it!
Go on! I know you can have your burst!
Or, maybe you need a real Finnish Sauna to get out your real Europa Mind?
***
About me /my status:
- my Europa OH-XRT is still not flyable but will be during early 2018 *
- my Lamco OH-U666 (a bushplane) is flyable now finally after my crash one year ago
- my very Beloved Cesna OH-CVK (which I owned 1996-2012) is here back again.
- my Antonov AN-2 HA-MDO is in Sweden, but it will be soon here.
David,
pls fly here duging The 2018 - the cows are away!
Just land EFRT 12/30 or 03/21 if you like so.
Raimo
OH-XRT
Finland
<snip>
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Paul M 383
Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 97
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:29 am Post subject: ELT |
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Ah - Raimo covered this in more mathematical detail!
--
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bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:33 pm Post subject: ELT |
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Bob, Not quite clear whether your PLB had GPS included. David
— — — — — — — — — — — — -
Hi David
McMurdo let me have a replacement model to the very latest specification. They retained the unit sent to them for performance check/potential refurbish
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:18 pm Post subject: ELT |
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Paul,
you got it!
(and remember, UK is maybe taller but WE are larger,
that means we could easily populate here say 100.000.000 people)
And, if you Paul happen to like maths, think about this:
One (just one, not the largest) of our lake is around 100 km x 100 km (we have say 100.000 lakes).
That´s The Lake Inari (all who have flown to Jos Okhuisen and Nordkap have seen it,
Jos is living on the beech of The Lake Inari).
Now carefully:
During the winter it´s of course frozen. The thickness of ice is then say 50-100 cm.
You can drive any truck or even tanks there then.
OK.
In the world there are about 7.600.000.000 people right now 2017.
Let´s assume there are 10.000.000.000 people 2030.
They all could easily come to The Lake Inari (if we happen to invitate them),
and stay over the ice quite comfortable and each person will have 1 m² for personal area.
Do you believe me?
All the people from the world to Finland and we could locate them over one fucken frozen lake?
Am I grazy?
100 km x 100 km = 100.000 m x 100.000 m = 10.000.000.000 m².
Now you understand (at least I hope so)
- Finland is so big that we could populate you all easily...over just one lake.
(how to get food? Just make a hole to the ice and get a fish. Do not ask more).
***
I hope you all understand this was an ELT related case.
Raimo
allekirjoitus
(info(at)rwm.fi)
Paul Mansfield kirjoitti 3.11.2017 klo 15:26:
[quote] [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Mansfield <europaul383(at)hotmail.com> (europaul383(at)hotmail.com) Ah - Raimo covered this in more mathematical detail! --
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:32 pm Post subject: ELT |
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Raimo, I am very fond of Lake Inari, having walked round it, driven round it , flown over it and even contemplated diving into it post sauna, BUT: The problem about getting into 'Mine is bigger than yours' arguments is that even honourable fellows like you tend to lie through their teeth! Lake Inari isn't a nice rectangular shape - it is more like an octupus with measles. It' average height is around 28nm and average width around 14nm. Being generous with the conversion, (because we like you!) that is around 50 x 30 km or 1500 million sq metres. So you are going to ask about seven people to sit/stand on each sq metre. That is an even more ridiculous idea than Brexit!
Fond regards, David
On 2017-11-03 21:16, Raimo Toivio wrote: [quote]
Paul,
you got it!
(and remember, UK is maybe taller but WE are larger,
that means we could easily populate here say 100.000.000 people)
And, if you Paul happen to like maths, think about this:
One (just one, not the largest) of our lake is around 100 km x 100 km (we have say 100.000 lakes).
That´s The Lake Inari (all who have flown to Jos Okhuisen and Nordkap have seen it,
Jos is living on the beech of The Lake Inari).
Now carefully:
During the winter it´s of course frozen. The thickness of ice is then say 50-100 cm.
You can drive any truck or even tanks there then.
OK.
In the world there are about 7.600.000.000 people right now 2017.
Let´s assume there are 10.000.000.000 people 2030.
They all could easily come to The Lake Inari (if we happen to invitate them),
and stay over the ice quite comfortable and each person will have 1 m² for personal area.
Do you believe me?
All the people from the world to Finland and we could locate them over one fucken frozen lake?
Am I grazy?
100 km x 100 km = 100.000 m x 100.000 m = 10.000.000.000 m².
Now you understand (at least I hope so)
- Finland is so big that we could populate you all easily...over just one lake.
(how to get food? Just make a hole to the ice and get a fish. Do not ask more).
***
I hope you all understand this was an ELT related case.
Raimo
Paul Mansfield kirjoitti 3.11.2017 klo 15:26:
[quote] [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Mansfield <europaul383(at)hotmail.com> (europaul383(at)hotmail.com) Ah - Raimo covered this in more mathematical detail! --
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: ELT |
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And oh David,
Brexit
how about
Fixit?
(right now, The Russians are coming, whe should really be together)
Just fly, we all together... in peace!
Raimo
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 4.11.2017 klo 0:15:
[quote]
Raimo, I am very fond of Lake Inari, having walked round it, driven round it , flown over it and even contemplated diving into it post sauna, BUT: The problem about getting into 'Mine is bigger than yours' arguments is that even honourable fellows like you tend to lie through their teeth! Lake Inari isn't a nice rectangular shape - it is more like an octupus with measles. It' average height is around 28nm and average width around 14nm. Being generous with the conversion, (because we like you!) that is around 50 x 30 km or 1500 million sq metres. So you are going to ask about seven people to sit/stand on each sq metre. That is an even more ridiculous idea than Brexit!
Fond regards, David
 Â
On 2017-11-03 21:16, Raimo Toivio wrote: [quote]
Paul,
you got it!
(and remember, UK is maybe taller but WE are larger,
that means we could easily populate here say 100.000.000 people)
And, if you Paul happen to like maths, think about this:
One (just one, not the largest) of our lake is around 100 km x 100 km (we have say 100.000 lakes).
That´s The Lake Inari (all who have flown to Jos Okhuisen and Nordkap have seen it,
Jos is living on the beech of The Lake Inari).
Now carefully:
During the winter it´s of course frozen. The thickness of ice is then say 50-100 cm.
You can drive any truck or even tanks there then.
OK.
In the world there are about 7.600.000.000 people right now 2017.
Let´s assume there are 10.000.000.000 people 2030.
They all could easily come to The Lake Inari (if we happen to invitate them),
and stay over the ice quite comfortable and each person will have 1 m² for personal area.
Do you believe me?
All the people from the world to Finland and we could locate them over one fucken frozen lake?
Am I grazy?
100 km x 100 km = 100.000 m x 100.000 m = 10.000.000.000 m².
Now you understand (at least I hope so)
- Finland is so big that we could populate you all easily...over just one lake.
(how to get food? Just make a hole to the ice and get a fish. Do not ask more).
***
I hope you all understand this was an ELT related case.
Raimo
Paul Mansfield kirjoitti 3.11.2017 klo 15:26:
[quote] [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Mansfield <europaul383(at)hotmail.com> (europaul383(at)hotmail.com) Ah - Raimo covered this in more mathematical detail! --
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: ELT |
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Dear (Really) David,
seven?
I do love you but coming back,
You grazy Englisman will be sure about that!
Just now I´m saying " a bit hurry "...
R
allekirjoitus (info(at)rwm.fi)
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 4.11.2017 klo 0:15:
[quote]
Raimo, I am very fond of Lake Inari, having walked round it, driven round it , flown over it and even contemplated diving into it post sauna, BUT: The problem about getting into 'Mine is bigger than yours' arguments is that even honourable fellows like you tend to lie through their teeth! Lake Inari isn't a nice rectangular shape - it is more like an octupus with measles. It' average height is around 28nm and average width around 14nm. Being generous with the conversion, (because we like you!) that is around 50 x 30 km or 1500 million sq metres. So you are going to ask about seven people to sit/stand on each sq metre. That is an even more ridiculous idea than Brexit!
Fond regards, David
 Â
On 2017-11-03 21:16, Raimo Toivio wrote: [quote]
Paul,
you got it!
(and remember, UK is maybe taller but WE are larger,
that means we could easily populate here say 100.000.000 people)
And, if you Paul happen to like maths, think about this:
One (just one, not the largest) of our lake is around 100 km x 100 km (we have say 100.000 lakes).
That´s The Lake Inari (all who have flown to Jos Okhuisen and Nordkap have seen it,
Jos is living on the beech of The Lake Inari).
Now carefully:
During the winter it´s of course frozen. The thickness of ice is then say 50-100 cm.
You can drive any truck or even tanks there then.
OK.
In the world there are about 7.600.000.000 people right now 2017.
Let´s assume there are 10.000.000.000 people 2030.
They all could easily come to The Lake Inari (if we happen to invitate them),
and stay over the ice quite comfortable and each person will have 1 m² for personal area.
Do you believe me?
All the people from the world to Finland and we could locate them over one fucken frozen lake?
Am I grazy?
100 km x 100 km = 100.000 m x 100.000 m = 10.000.000.000 m².
Now you understand (at least I hope so)
- Finland is so big that we could populate you all easily...over just one lake.
(how to get food? Just make a hole to the ice and get a fish. Do not ask more).
***
I hope you all understand this was an ELT related case.
Raimo
Paul Mansfield kirjoitti 3.11.2017 klo 15:26:
[quote] [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Mansfield <europaul383(at)hotmail.com> (europaul383(at)hotmail.com) Ah - Raimo covered this in more mathematical detail! --
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:45 pm Post subject: ELT |
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Then there's always Canada LOL 
Cheers,
Pete
On Nov 3, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)> wrote:
[quote]
Paul,
you got it!
(and remember, UK is maybe taller but WE are larger,
that means we could easily populate here say 100.000.000 people)
And, if you Paul happen to like maths, think about this:
One (just one, not the largest) of our lake is around 100 km x 100 km (we have say 100.000 lakes).
That´s The Lake Inari (all who have flown to Jos Okhuisen and Nordkap have seen it,
Jos is living on the beech of The Lake Inari).
Now carefully:
During the winter it´s of course frozen. The thickness of ice is then say 50-100 cm.
You can drive any truck or even tanks there then.
OK.
In the world there are about 7.600.000.000 people right now 2017.
Let´s assume there are 10.000.000.000 people 2030.
They all could easily come to The Lake Inari (if we happen to invitate them),
and stay over the ice quite comfortable and each person will have 1 m² for personal area.
Do you believe me?
All the people from the world to Finland and we could locate them over one fucken frozen lake?
Am I grazy?
100 km x 100 km = 100.000 m x 100.000 m = 10.000.000.000 m².
Now you understand (at least I hope so)
- Finland is so big that we could populate you all easily...over just one lake.
(how to get food? Just make a hole to the ice and get a fish. Do not ask more).
***
I hope you all understand this was an ELT related case.
Raimo
allekirjoitus
(info(at)rwm.fi)
Paul Mansfield kirjoitti 3.11.2017 klo 15:26:
[quote] [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Mansfield <europaul383(at)hotmail.com> (europaul383(at)hotmail.com) Ah - Raimo covered this in more mathematical detail! --
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:40 pm Post subject: ELT |
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David,
Brexit could be a good idea, but what about a lake, you will be sure, I´m coming back!
And you will be wrong, as typically and as normally.
And I´m happy you know that lake...is not that wonderfull?
What a place to use your sea plane?
And: do you agree the fact that Finland is really a lot more bigger than a whole little Kigdom of UK?
Maybe I should take a one more larger lake. We have them a lot, You know.
David!
Mine is always bigger.
I do like you.
Raimo
allekirjoitus
(info(at)rwm.fi)
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) kirjoitti 4.11.2017 klo 0:15:
[quote]
Raimo, I am very fond of Lake Inari, having walked round it, driven round it , flown over it and even contemplated diving into it post sauna, BUT: The problem about getting into 'Mine is bigger than yours' arguments is that even honourable fellows like you tend to lie through their teeth! Lake Inari isn't a nice rectangular shape - it is more like an octupus with measles. It' average height is around 28nm and average width around 14nm. Being generous with the conversion, (because we like you!) that is around 50 x 30 km or 1500 million sq metres. So you are going to ask about seven people to sit/stand on each sq metre. That is an even more ridiculous idea than Brexit!
Fond regards, David
 Â
On 2017-11-03 21:16, Raimo Toivio wrote: [quote]
Paul,
you got it!
(and remember, UK is maybe taller but WE are larger,
that means we could easily populate here say 100.000.000 people)
And, if you Paul happen to like maths, think about this:
One (just one, not the largest) of our lake is around 100 km x 100 km (we have say 100.000 lakes).
That´s The Lake Inari (all who have flown to Jos Okhuisen and Nordkap have seen it,
Jos is living on the beech of The Lake Inari).
Now carefully:
During the winter it´s of course frozen. The thickness of ice is then say 50-100 cm.
You can drive any truck or even tanks there then.
OK.
In the world there are about 7.600.000.000 people right now 2017.
Let´s assume there are 10.000.000.000 people 2030.
They all could easily come to The Lake Inari (if we happen to invitate them),
and stay over the ice quite comfortable and each person will have 1 m² for personal area.
Do you believe me?
All the people from the world to Finland and we could locate them over one fucken frozen lake?
Am I grazy?
100 km x 100 km = 100.000 m x 100.000 m = 10.000.000.000 m².
Now you understand (at least I hope so)
- Finland is so big that we could populate you all easily...over just one lake.
(how to get food? Just make a hole to the ice and get a fish. Do not ask more).
***
I hope you all understand this was an ELT related case.
Raimo
Paul Mansfield kirjoitti 3.11.2017 klo 15:26:
[quote] [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Mansfield <europaul383(at)hotmail.com> (europaul383(at)hotmail.com) Ah - Raimo covered this in more mathematical detail! --
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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