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LycomingEngines-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/04/17

 
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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1497
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:02 am    Post subject: LycomingEngines-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/04/17 Reply with quote

I ass-ume that from your description the engine was a carbureted version
of O-30 that has been converted to fuel injection, and has parallel
valve cylinders. Does it have Bendix/Precision RSA injection or Air Flow
Performance injection?
Fuel flow normally has to be set by a repair station that has a flow
bench. You should see around 18gph for full power at take-off.
I would measure that by seeing EGT of between 1200 and 1300 degrees. If
hotter, you need more fuel flow.
For cruise at 75% or less, peak EGT should be around 1450-1500, but
there is no limit.
CHT you want to keep it below 400, but brief excursions to 425-430 are
okay as long as you are taking action to reduce the temps...don't stay
there. The higher compression will tend to make CHT higher, so you need
to manage that. Your electronic ignition will also tend to make engine
run hotter, so be sure you have good cooling, air tight baffling, etc.

Assuming a max power of around 200 hp, your 75% power would be 150 hp.
LOP you can determine that power as 10 gph. 65% would be 8.6 gph.
I don't know if there is a good POH power setting page for your
compression. Lycoming did build an angle valve cylinder IO-360 with 10:1
compression for helicopters, so if you could find a POH for that, might
be helpful for ROP settings. Firewall Forward had an STC for installing
those helicopter engine pistons in 200 hp Cardinals and
Mooneys...perhaps they generated some handbook.

On 11/5/2017 7:30 AM, Paul Collins wrote:
Quote:
To the “Engine-Smart” and experienced group,

                I have an 0-360 - fuel injection, magneto and
Lightspeed electronic ignition, all four cylinders monitored by EGT and
CHT, compression boosted to 10.2 by Ly-Con.

                So, how would this experienced group set the
fuel-flow?  What limits/measurements would you use??

1. Run by EGT?  If so, what limits??
2. Run by CHT? If so, what limits??
3. Run by fuel flow vs % power setting? If so, what limits??
4. Run by congressional budget?  If so, what limits??

Weather is changing out here is Idaho, so it is a good time to start
thinking about these things – and shovel snow.

Thanks for your consideration,

Paul Collins

N8ZV

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10

*From: *LycomingEngines-List Digest Server
<mailto:lycomingengines-list(at)matronics.com>
*Sent: *Sunday, November 5, 2017 1:13 AM
*To: *LycomingEngines-List Digest List
<mailto:lycomingengines-list-digest(at)matronics.com>
*Subject: *LycomingEngines-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/04/17

*

=========================

   Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive

=========================

Today's complete LycomingEngines-List Digest can also be found in either
of the

two Web Links listed below.  The .html file includes the Digest formatted

in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes

and Message Navigation.  The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version

of the LycomingEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
editor

such as Notepad or with a web browser.

HTML Version:


http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines

Text Version:


http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines

=======================

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                           LycomingEngines-List Digest Archive

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                     Total Messages Posted Sat 11/04/17: 0

           ----------------------------------------------------------

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD
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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1497
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: LycomingEngines-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/04/17 Reply with quote

Amen, second that recommendation.
Lycoming either considers pilots too stupid or incompetent to monitor
and adjust mixture; or they don't understand the concepts their own data
demonstrates.
Have operated a 200 hp Lycoming for 15 years LOP with no problems. Flew
my RV-10 with IO-540 from AZ to OSH and back LOP, with no problems.
Air Flow Performance and GAMI can give good guidance.
You really don't have to worry about how lean the mixture is once you
reduce to 65% power or less.
Kelly
A&P/IA

On 11/5/2017 7:10 PM, Ray Eaker wrote:
Quote:
You’d be better off reading John Deakin’s pelican Perch  articles. Many
old POH docs and some eng MFG docs are misleading.

On Nov 5, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com
<mailto:cluros(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

I would also look at Lycoming's more recent guidance:

https://www.lycoming.com/content/service-instruction-no-1497a

On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com
<mailto:cluros(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

Paul, until you know a lot more I suggest you don't follow any
advice you find online and for now follow the procedure in your
engine manual (pasted below)

IO-360 Operator's Manual

Section 3

7.

c. Fuel Mixture Leaning Procedure.

Improper fuel/air mixture during flight is responsible for engine
problems, particularly during takeoff and climb power settings. The
procedures described in this manual provide proper fuel/air mixture
when leaning Lycoming engines; they have proven to be both
economical and practical by eliminating excessive fuel consumption
and reducing damaged parts replacement. It is therefore recommended
that operators of all Lycoming aircraft engines utilize the
instructions in this publication any time the fuel/air mixture is
adjusted during flight.

Manual leaning may be monitored by exhaust gas temperature
indication, fuel flow indication, and by observation of engine speed
and/or airspeed. However, whatever instruments are used in
monitoring the mixture, the following general rules must be observed
by the operator of Lycoming aircraft engines.

Never exceed the maximum red line cylinder head temperature limit.

For maximum service life, cylinder head temperatures should be
maintained below 435°F (224°C) during high performance cruise
operation and below 400°F (205°C) for economy cruise powers.

Do not manually lean engines equipped with automatically controlled
fuel system.

On engines with manual mixture control, maintain mixture control in
“Full Rich” position for rated takeoff, climb, and maximum cruise
powers (above approximately 75%). However, during take-off from high
elevation airport or during climb, roughness or loss of power may
result from over-richness. In such a case adjust mixture control
only enough to obtain smooth operation – not for economy. Observe
instruments for temperature rise. Rough operation due to over-rich
fuel/air mixture is most likely to be encountered in carbureted
engines at altitude above 5,000 feet.

Always return the mixture to full rich before increasing power
settings.

Operate the engine at maximum power mixture for performance cruise
powers and at best economy mixture for economy cruise power; unless
otherwise specified in the airplane owner’s manual.

During letdown flight operations it may be necessary to manually
lean uncompensated carbureted or fuel injected engines to obtain
smooth operation.

1. LEANING TO EXHAUST GAS TEMPERATURE GAGE.
     a. Normally aspirated engines with fuel injectors or
uncompensated carburetors.
          (1) Maximum Power Cruise (approximately 75% power) –
Never lean beyond 150°F on rich side of peak EGT unless aircraft
operator’s manual shows otherwise. Monitor cylinder head temperatures.
          (2) Best Economy Cruise (approximately 75% power and
below) – Operate at peak EGT.

2. LEANING TO FLOWMETER.
     Lean to applicable fuel-flow tables or lean to indicator
marked for correct fuel flow for each power setting.

3. LEANING WITH MANUAL MIXTURE CONTROL. (Economy cruise, 75% power
or less, without flowmeter or EGT gauge.)
     a. Carbureted Engines.
          (1) Slowly move mixture control from “Full Rich” position
toward lean position.
          (2) Continue leaning until engine roughness is noted.
          (3) Enrich until engine runs smoothly and power is regained.
     b. Fuel Injected Engines.
          (1) Slowly move mixture control from “Full Rich” position
toward lean position.
          (2) Continue leaning until slight loss of power is noted
(loss of power may or may not be accompanied by roughness.
          (3) Enrich until engine runs smoothly and power is regained.

If you want to learn more about the how and why, I would suggest
starting here:

http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/2274677932001/webinar--leaning-basics?autoStart=true&q=leaning
<http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/2274677932001/webinar--leaning-basics?autoStart=true&q=leaning>

On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:30 AM, Paul Collins <collins04(at)cableone.net
<mailto:collins04(at)cableone.net>> wrote:

To the “Engine-Smart” and experienced group,

                I have an 0-360 - fuel injection, magneto and
Lightspeed electronic ignition, all four cylinders monitored by
EGT and CHT, compression boosted to 10.2 by Ly-Con.

                So, how would this experienced group set the
fuel-flow?  What limits/measurements would you use??

1. Run by EGT?  If so, what limits??
2. Run by CHT? If so, what limits??
3. Run by fuel flow vs % power setting? If so, what limits??
4. Run by congressional budget?  If so, what limits??

__ __

Weather is changing out here is Idaho, so it is a good time to
start thinking about these things – and shovel snow.

__ __

Thanks for your consideration,

Paul Collins

N8ZV

__ __

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
for Windows 10

__ __

*From: *LycomingEngines-List Digest Server
<mailto:lycomingengines-list(at)matronics.com>
*Sent: *Sunday, November 5, 2017 1:13 AM
*To: *LycomingEngines-List Digest List
<mailto:lycomingengines-list-digest(at)matronics.com>
*Subject: *LycomingEngines-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/04/17

__ __

*

__ __

=========================

   Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive

=========================

__ __

Today's complete LycomingEngines-List Digest can also be found
in either of the

two Web Links listed below.  The .html file includes the Digest
formatted

in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
Indexes

and Message Navigation.  The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
version

of the LycomingEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a
generic text editor

such as Notepad or with a web browser.

__ __

HTML Version:

__ __

http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines
<http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines>

__ __

Text Version:

__ __

http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines
<http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines>

__ __

__ __

=======================

   EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive

=======================

__ __

           ----------------------------------------------------------

                           LycomingEngines-List Digest Archive

        ---

                     Total Messages Posted Sat 11/04/17: 0


----------------------------------------------------------

Today's Message Index:

----------------------

__ __

__ __

__ __





- The Matronics LycomingEngines-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD
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stuart(at)stuarthutchison
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:46 pm    Post subject: LycomingEngines-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/04/17 Reply with quote

And let’s face it ... the OEM stills sells Lyconosours (what are effectively a very simple to manufacture, 70 year-old design - albeit very inefficient and highly reliable) for at least five times what it actually costs to produce.

Much of the ‘fear’ of LOP stems from years of operations with only one EGT and one CHT sensor instead of four or six. Now we are able to know (and record for later analysis) what is actually occurring in all the cylinders.

Kind Regards, Stu

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On 6 Nov 2017, at 13:22, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:



Amen, second that recommendation.
Lycoming either considers pilots too stupid or incompetent to monitor and adjust mixture; or they don't understand the concepts their own data demonstrates.
Have operated a 200 hp Lycoming for 15 years LOP with no problems. Flew my RV-10 with IO-540 from AZ to OSH and back LOP, with no problems.
Air Flow Performance and GAMI can give good guidance.
You really don't have to worry about how lean the mixture is once you reduce to 65% power or less.
Kelly
A&P/IA

> On 11/5/2017 7:10 PM, Ray Eaker wrote:
> You’d be better off reading John Deakin’s pelican Perch articles. Many old POH docs and some eng MFG docs are misleading.
> On Nov 5, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com <mailto:cluros(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
> I would also look at Lycoming's more recent guidance:
> https://www.lycoming.com/content/service-instruction-no-1497a
> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com <mailto:cluros(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
> Paul, until you know a lot more I suggest you don't follow any
> advice you find online and for now follow the procedure in your
> engine manual (pasted below)
> IO-360 Operator's Manual
> Section 3
> 7.
> c. Fuel Mixture Leaning Procedure.
> Improper fuel/air mixture during flight is responsible for engine
> problems, particularly during takeoff and climb power settings. The
> procedures described in this manual provide proper fuel/air mixture
> when leaning Lycoming engines; they have proven to be both
> economical and practical by eliminating excessive fuel consumption
> and reducing damaged parts replacement. It is therefore recommended
> that operators of all Lycoming aircraft engines utilize the
> instructions in this publication any time the fuel/air mixture is
> adjusted during flight.
> Manual leaning may be monitored by exhaust gas temperature
> indication, fuel flow indication, and by observation of engine speed
> and/or airspeed. However, whatever instruments are used in
> monitoring the mixture, the following general rules must be observed
> by the operator of Lycoming aircraft engines.
> Never exceed the maximum red line cylinder head temperature limit.
> For maximum service life, cylinder head temperatures should be
> maintained below 435°F (224°C) during high performance cruise
> operation and below 400°F (205°C) for economy cruise powers.
> Do not manually lean engines equipped with automatically controlled
> fuel system.
> On engines with manual mixture control, maintain mixture control in
> “Full Rich” position for rated takeoff, climb, and maximum cruise
> powers (above approximately 75%). However, during take-off from high
> elevation airport or during climb, roughness or loss of power may
> result from over-richness. In such a case adjust mixture control
> only enough to obtain smooth operation – not for economy. Observe
> instruments for temperature rise. Rough operation due to over-rich
> fuel/air mixture is most likely to be encountered in carbureted
> engines at altitude above 5,000 feet.
> Always return the mixture to full rich before increasing power
> settings.
> Operate the engine at maximum power mixture for performance cruise
> powers and at best economy mixture for economy cruise power; unless
> otherwise specified in the airplane owner’s manual.
> During letdown flight operations it may be necessary to manually
> lean uncompensated carbureted or fuel injected engines to obtain
> smooth operation.
> 1. LEANING TO EXHAUST GAS TEMPERATURE GAGE.
> a. Normally aspirated engines with fuel injectors or
> uncompensated carburetors.
> (1) Maximum Power Cruise (approximately 75% power) –
> Never lean beyond 150°F on rich side of peak EGT unless aircraft
> operator’s manual shows otherwise. Monitor cylinder head temperatures.
> (2) Best Economy Cruise (approximately 75% power and
> below) – Operate at peak EGT.
> 2. LEANING TO FLOWMETER.
> Lean to applicable fuel-flow tables or lean to indicator
> marked for correct fuel flow for each power setting.
> 3. LEANING WITH MANUAL MIXTURE CONTROL. (Economy cruise, 75% power
> or less, without flowmeter or EGT gauge.)
> a. Carbureted Engines.
> (1) Slowly move mixture control from “Full Rich” position
> toward lean position.
> (2) Continue leaning until engine roughness is noted.
> (3) Enrich until engine runs smoothly and power is regained.
> b. Fuel Injected Engines.
> (1) Slowly move mixture control from “Full Rich” position
> toward lean position.
> (2) Continue leaning until slight loss of power is noted
> (loss of power may or may not be accompanied by roughness.
> (3) Enrich until engine runs smoothly and power is regained.
> If you want to learn more about the how and why, I would suggest
> starting here:
> http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/2274677932001/webinar--leaning-basics?autoStart=true&q=leaning
> <http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/2274677932001/webinar--leaning-basics?autoStart=true&q=leaning>
> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:30 AM, Paul Collins <collins04(at)cableone.net
> <mailto:collins04(at)cableone.net>> wrote:
> To the “Engine-Smart” and experienced group,
> I have an 0-360 - fuel injection, magneto and
> Lightspeed electronic ignition, all four cylinders monitored by
> EGT and CHT, compression boosted to 10.2 by Ly-Con.
> So, how would this experienced group set the
> fuel-flow? What limits/measurements would you use??
> 1. Run by EGT? If so, what limits??
> 2. Run by CHT? If so, what limits??
> 3. Run by fuel flow vs % power setting? If so, what limits??
> 4. Run by congressional budget? If so, what limits??
> __ __
> Weather is changing out here is Idaho, so it is a good time to
> start thinking about these things – and shovel snow.
> __ __
> Thanks for your consideration,
> Paul Collins
> N8ZV
> __ __
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
> for Windows 10
> __ __
> *From: *LycomingEngines-List Digest Server
> <mailto:lycomingengines-list(at)matronics.com>
> *Sent: *Sunday, November 5, 2017 1:13 AM
> *To: *LycomingEngines-List Digest List
> <mailto:lycomingengines-list-digest(at)matronics.com>
> *Subject: *LycomingEngines-List Digest: 0 Msgs - 11/04/17
> __ __
> *
> __ __
> =========================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =========================
> __ __
> Today's complete LycomingEngines-List Digest can also be found
> in either of the
> two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest
> formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked
> Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII
> version
> of the LycomingEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a
> generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
> __ __
> HTML Version:
> __ __
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines
> <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines>
> __ __
> Text Version:
> __ __
> http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines
> <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 17-11-04&Archive=LycomingEngines>
> __ __
> __ __
> =======================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> =======================
> __ __
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> LycomingEngines-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Sat 11/04/17: 0
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
> __ __
> __ __
> __ __





- The Matronics LycomingEngines-List Email Forum -
 

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