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Engine Over-cooling

 
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JonSmith



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:08 am    Post subject: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Lots has been covered over the years about insufficient cooling. My problem is the opposite - when airborne my cylinder head/ water temperatures are far too low. Even in a long slow climb the temps never overheat and anything other than a climb the temps are too low. The oil temperature used to be too low also but a few years ago I fitted a Thermostasis oil thermostat. The oil temperature is now perfect all the time but it has had no effect on the cylinder head temp.

My question - does anyone have any pearls of wisdom on recommending (or otherwise) the fitting of a coolant thermostat? In accordance with the Rotax/ Conair Standard mod as on the LAA website.

In particular I was wondering if the fitting of such a thermostat might compromise sufficient cooling (or reduce the usable time before overheating) on the ground? Although mine overcools in the air, on the ground the cooling is only just sufficient! I’ve learned to live with it but on a hot day with a long slow taxi out I have to keep a close eye on things.

Ps. I’ve experimented many times with blanking the radiator with Ali tape. Helps a bit but not perfect nor an elegant solution. Yesterday was a very cold day and I blanked over 1/2 of the radiator off. The water temp was still too cold in the air. In the summer, without the radiator blanked off it gets too cool in the air and with a bit blanked off it gets too hot on the ground.....! Life’s a compromise I guess....!

Thanks in advance, Jon


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Duncan McFadyean



Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

<<....The water temp was still too cold in the air. ..>>
By what measure? Rotax don't publish a lower limit. So long as oil is up to temperature, low water temp should have no significance. The cylinders will have a similar expansion coeff to the pistons, so 'cold seizing' should not be a significant risk.
Duncan Mcf.

Quote:
----Original Message----
From: jonsmitheuropa(at)tiscali.co.uk
Date: 29/12/2017 10:08
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subj: Europa-List: Engine Over-cooling

--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa(at)tiscali.co.uk>

Lots has been covered over the years about insufficient cooling. My problem is the opposite - when airborne my cylinder head/ water temperatures are far too low. Even in a long slow climb the temps never overheat and anything other than a climb the temps are too low. The oil temperature used to be too low also but a few years ago I fitted a Thermostasis oil thermostat. The oil temperature is now perfect all the time but it has had no effect on the cylinder head temp.

My question - does anyone have any pearls of wisdom on recommending (or otherwise) the fitting of a coolant thermostat? In accordance with the Rotax/ Conair Standard mod as on the LAA website.

In particular I was wondering if the fitting of such a thermostat might compromise sufficient cooling (or reduce the usable time before overheating) on the ground? Although mine overcools in the air, on the ground the cooling is only just sufficient! I’ve learned to live with it but on a hot day with a long slow taxi out I have to keep a close eye on things.

Ps. I’ve experimented many times with blanking the radiator with Ali tape. Helps a bit but not perfect nor an elegant solution. Yesterday was a very cold day and I blanked over 1/2 of the radiator off. The water temp was still too cold in the air. In the summer, without the radiator blanked off it gets too cool in the air and with a bit blanked off it gets too hot on the ground.....! Life’s a compromise I guess....!

Thanks in advance, Jon

--------
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Roland



Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Hi Jon,

I've experimented a looong time, until I found a perfect setup with a XS cowling, water thermostat and almost all air forced through the radiator with only a 5mm gap below it to feed the 7-row oil cooler instead of the standard 13-row. Below 10°C I blank 25% of the oil cooler and below 0°C another 25% with a clip of aluminium sheet. That way I get >80°C oil and 95°C water temperature in cruise. During descents in very cold temperatures the oil and water temperatures drop even with a thermostat and I don't think that you can do much against that.

To get the water temps under control on the ground was the hardest bit for me. Everything else was trial and error with often very surprising results (one was the fact, that a 7-row oil cooler is sufficient even with the Turbo Rotax).

That said, I don't think, that low water temperatures are critical as opposite to too low oil temperatures.

Good luck!

Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914


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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:16 pm    Post subject: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

I was wondering for a long time if a radiator(s) exit flap could be implemented such that during very cold weather the exit could be totally blocked off (and also blocking off the cowl exit concurrently) but with a scat tube take-off into the cabin for heat Smile

No idea if that would: 1- provide enough cabin heat, and 2- restrict enough to raise the coolant/oil temps to normal operating temps, in all phases of flight.

Cheers,
Pete

Quote:
On Dec 29, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de> wrote:



Hi Jon,

I've experimented a looong time, until I found a perfect setup with a XS cowling, water thermostat and almost all air forced through the radiator with only a 5mm gap below it to feed the 7-row oil cooler instead of the standard 13-row. Below 10°C I blank 25% of the oil cooler and below 0°C another 25% with a clip of aluminium sheet. That way I get >80°C oil and 95°C water temperature in cruise. During descents in very cold temperatures the oil and water temperatures drop even with a thermostat and I don't think that you can do much against that.

To get the water temps under control on the ground was the hardest bit for me. Everything else was trial and errow with often very surprising results (one was the fact, that a 7-row oil cooler is sufficient even with the Turbo Rotax).

That said, I don't think, that low water temperatures are critical as opposite to too low oil temperatures.

Good luck!

Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914




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JonSmith



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Thanks Duncan, Roland & Pete for your replies. You make me feel a bit better about the low coolant temperature! Indeed I have always considered the oil temperature to be more I mportant hence my fitting an oil thermostat and the oil temp now seems to be as good as one could ever expect, 80 deg C all the time in the air.

I was just concerned about the low coolant temperature because I’m sure that on other forums somewhere I have seen people saying that it is important to keep the cylinders running at a reasonable temperature too. I can’t remember where I’ve seen that though! As you say though Duncan, there is no lower limit for it! My cylinder head temperature is often down at about 50 degrees C in the cruise in summer and yesterday (cold day) was about 30 to 40 degrees in the cruise. That was with the oil at 80 degrees with it’s thermostat and 50% of the coolant radiator taped off!


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Rick Moss



Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

30-40C does seem incredibly low; so low that I’d suspect a dodgy reading. Have you checked the accuracy of the gauge/sender?

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JonSmith



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Hi Rick, that is a very good point and next time I will test it out with a pan of hot water and a thermometer to be sure. However both gauges (I have the standard cylinder head temp gauge plus an actual water temp gauge) seem to be pretty much in agreement and they seem to read sensibly at the hot end of the range. On occasion during winter periods of no flying I have ground run the engine with the rads covered, up to operating temperature, getting the oil up to 100 degrees and the water gets up there too. Indeed a couple of years ago during one such occasion I was careless and let the water boil over (made a right mess!) and the gauges were both up to 120 degrees or so.

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carlp101



Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 120

PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Hi Jon,

Regarding the heat take off from the radiators, I installed mod 10986 where a door in the aluminium air flow ducting opens into the airflow coming through the water radiator and directs it into the cabin via a scat hose. It works, but it's not very effective when it's getting towards zero degrees. In hindsight I wish I'd gone with the approach of taking the air via a jacket around one of the exhaust pipes like most aircraft appear to do.

Regarding cooling, I lowered my water radiator so there is practically no gap between it and the cowl. I also installed an oil thermostat. That combination provides me with better cooling on hot days and seems to be fine in winter. I flew at 9500' on the way back from Belfast a few weeks ago. It was -12 outside, but my oil temp was 85 and water 65.

I hope you solve your problem.

Regards
Carl


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Remi Guerner



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:47 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

After experimenting for 16 years with the cooling of my Europa XS, I found that the best results are obtained with the installation of an effective cowl flap. The cowl flap does two things:
1. increasing the exit area of the cowl to improve the airflow through the radiators for a better cooling on the ground and during full power climb in summer.
2. Reducing that exit area to limit that flow and allow high enough oil and water temperatures at cruise especially in winter. For that matter, I found that a cowl flap is not effective unless it can reduce the exit area by at least 90%. Then the last few percents make a big difference. Additionally, the closed cowl flap accelerate the warm up of the engine and allows a very effective cabin heating in winter.
Attached are a few pics of my cowl flap configuration. The key features are:
a. The flap controls the airflow through the radiator+oil cooler exclusively. The flow entering the cowl through the round inlets is not affected by the position of the flap as it can escape on the sides and behind the flap. This allows to keep the heat sensitive accessories (battery, ignition modules, voltage regulator) and fuel system cool enough even with the cowl flap fully closed.
b. When the flap is fully closed, the only way for the hot air from the radiators to escape is through the 1-3/4" SCAT ducting to the cockpit (when the cabin heat flap is open) and the leaks. Therefore most of the hot air is forced to the cockpit. That makes the heating as effective as in a car.
c. My water radiator is a specially made one with two more rows (110 mm height) than the factory standard. This change was necessary to help solve the ground cooling issue. The oil cooler is still the 13 row Mocal that is covered 30% all year round and more in winter. I intend to replace it with a 7 row version with some more cowling work to further reduce drag. No thermostat.
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL
XS mono, 912ULS


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Hi Remi,

Happy new year!

Congrats on your successful setup - looks very nice! and thanks for confirming my optimistic theory that cabin heat could indeed be taken from the fully choked radiators. Could you tell me the coldest air that your cabin heat has successfully dealt with?

Cheers,
Pete

Quote:
On Jan 1, 2018, at 5:48 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:



After experimenting for 16 years with the cooling of my Europa XS, I found that the best results are obtained with the installation of an effective cowl flap. The cowl flap does two things:
1. increasing the exit area of the cowl to improve the airflow through the radiators for a better cooling on the ground and during full power climb in summer.
2. Reducing that exit area to limit that flow and allow high enough oil and water temperatures at cruise especially in winter. For that matter, I found that a cowl flap is not effective unless it can reduce the exit area by at least 90%. Then the last few percents make a big difference. Additionally, the closed cowl flap accelerate the warm up of the engine and allows a very effective cabin heating in winter.
Attached are a few pics of my cowl flap configuration. The key features are:
a. The flap controls the airflow through the radiator+oil cooler exclusively. The flow entering the cowl through the round inlets is not affected by the position of the flap as it can escape on the sides and behind the flap. This allows to keep the heat sensitive accessories (battery, ignition modules, voltage regulator) and fuel system cool enough even with the cowl flap fully closed.
b. When the flap is fully closed, the only way for the hot air from the radiators to escape is through the 1-3/4" SCAT ducting to the cockpit (when the cabin heat flap is open) and the leaks. Therefore most of the hot air is forced to the cockpit. That makes the heating as effective as in a car.
c. My water radiator is a specially made one with two more rows (110 mm height) than the factory standard. This change was necessary to help solve the ground cooling issue. The oil cooler is still the 13 row Mocal that is covered 30% all year round and more in winter. I intend to replace it with a 7 row version with some more cowling work to further reduce drag. No thermostat.
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL
XS mono, 912ULS




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Remi Guerner



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Pete,
The present version of my cowl flap was installed in May 2016. So that is only the second winter with that configuration. It was tested down to about minus 5°C. At this temp I was using only one tens of the stroke of the heat flap control. When I have the opportunity to fly at lower temperatures, I will make some measurements.
Remi


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Roland



Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Remi, that is a very clean setup and an Incredible effective cabin heater. I have a flap behind the oil cooler, but it's limit is about -5°C OAT at 80°C oil with normal clothing, especially at high altitude in the thin air. BTW many certified aircraft have this problem as well.
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914


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JonSmith



Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Hi Carl and Remi. Thank you for your thoughts (and photos Remi). I have thought for a while that some sort of cowl flap would be advantageous on such a closely cowled and fast aircraft. My cooling is currently just adequate on the ground (with a bit of time and effort I should be able to improve that a little) but as mentioned, overcools considerably in the air! I’m going to look into the cowl flap idea.
Cheers!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

I will be eagerly awaiting your colder/higher data Remi, and am hopeful that since the ~40hp of waste heat is available regardless of outside temp, your tight cowling and flap should still heat the cabin adequately. With the reduction of cooling drag and the gain in cabin heat, it sounds like a win-win situation Smile

Cheers and blue skies,
Pete

Quote:
On Jan 1, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:



Pete,
The present version of my cowl flap was installed in May 2016. So that is only the second winter with that configuration. It was tested down to about minus 5°C. At this temp I was using only one tens of the stroke of the heat flap control. When I have the opportunity to fly at lower temperatures, I will make some measurements.
Remi




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Fred Klein



Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Quote:
On Jan 1, 2018, at 2:48 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)> wrote:
After experimenting for 16 years with the cooling of my Europa XS, I found that the best results are obtained with the installation of an effective cowl flap.

Remi…can you describe your open-close linkage?…Is it spring-loaded to the “open” position w/ a “pull” cable to close it?

F.


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Remi Guerner



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:50 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Fred,
The attached picture shows how the button lock push pull control (A700 from ACS) is installed below the instrument module and under the top of the pilot footwell. From there the casing makes 270° turn to the left and enters the tunnel through the right side of the foot well, then goes down vertically, following the firewall to the flap. A spring is not necessary as the natural aerodynamic forces tend to pull the flap open. When pulled fully closed however, the aerodynamic load is very high, so it is critical to build a very rigid and robust flap (hence the wing shaped profile of my flap). Otherwise the flap flexes under load and is not effective enough.
Remi


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JonSmith



Joined: 21 May 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:03 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Thanks Remi, a very impressive set up!

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h&jeuropa



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

At Oshkosh 2016, Erich Trombley showed us the cowl flap he fitted. We have copied it and find it provides similar benefits as Remi described. The only difference from Remi's is that we use a electric actuator and display cowl flap position on our EFIS. The actuator is a Actuonix L16-50-150-12-P Here is a photo showing the actuator and the flap.

Jim & Heather


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Roland



Joined: 30 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Incidentally I found this

https://www.experimentalaircraft.info/homebuilt-aircraft/rotax-aircraft-engines-3.php

in the www. According to their "quick reference guide" the ideal CHT should be 75-110°C.

However they also recommend to refer to the official Rotax manual, where I can't find any CHT-limitation on the low side.

FWIW last monday I made two longer flights >1h at FL80 with OAT about -10°C and with my current setup I had 99°C CHT and 96°C oiltemperature in cruise flight (75%).

Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914


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Roland



Joined: 30 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:30 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Over-cooling Reply with quote

Made two similar flights the day before yesterday in about the same temperatures, but down low under an overcast (1500-2000ft). Now the CHT was 85°C (thermostatic controlled) and oil 81°C.

I didn't expect that and my guess is, that the denser air results in a better cooling.

Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914


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