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japowell



Joined: 02 Dec 2016
Posts: 33
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:31 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

I sent the 503 out for a zero time rebuild to Heaven Bound Aviation in Johnstown. After looking at the prop, I found a few nicks and bruises on it and would like to replace it. What is the best prop for the 503? I have researched the achives and am still confused.

Thanks.


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japowell



Joined: 02 Dec 2016
Posts: 33
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: best props Reply with quote

Forgot to mention, I am running a b-redrive with 2:58 reduction/
. I know John likes the warp and several others like Ivo but what is the real difference.

Jim


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

The Duc brand of propeller from Europe is supposedly one of the more efficient, delivering the most thrust. Definitely not the least expensive route however.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 12/29/17, japowell <japnmjp(at)twc.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: best props
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, December 29, 2017, 4:40 PM


"japowell" <japnmjp(at)twc.com>

Forgot to mention, I am running a
b-redrive with 2:58 reduction/
. I know John likes the warp and
several others like Ivo but what is the real difference.

Jim

--------
Jim P
WAR EAGLE




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476874#476874






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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Props are one of those things that require a lot of thought. I’ve run two blade wooden props. (Tennessee propeller) very good at matching prop to specific engines. Real good composite leading edges are available. Reasonably priced.
I’ve run Ivoprops in both two and three blade configurations with good results, very adjustable. They held up well in sandy and decomposed granite runway conditions. The only downside was that they’re heavy and seem to take a little longer to wind up. The blades do flex a lot and on some Kolb models require a prop extension. Added cost.
At the present time I’m liking Powerfin propellers. Beautifully CNC machined hubs and light very stiff composite blades. Ceramic leading edges are available. I’m sure they’d be great in really abrasive conditions. Extra cost though. They come in two and three blade versions. They are expensive, but worth the it I think.
Warp Drives are really good looking props. They look really well made. I’ve heard that they are great propellers. I’ve been told that they’re on the heavy side too. But, that’s hearsay. I have no experience with them, so I have no opinion.
I think the two blade props are more efficient for around performance. But, I like three blades simply because I like the climb power and smoothness. I think that I will loose a little on cruise with a three blade. But, I’m all about takeoff and clearing trees up here. Just my input. It’s worth what it cost you. Just opinions. Have a great day! George

George Helton
1986 Firestar, FS100
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Do not archive
Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Dec 29, 2017, at 6:31 PM, japowell <japnmjp(at)twc.com> wrote:



I sent the 503 out for a zero time rebuild to Heaven Bound Aviation in Johnstown. After looking at the prop, I found a few nicks and bruises on it and would like to replace it. What is the best prop for the 503? I have researched the achives and am still confused.

Thanks.

--------
Jim P
WAR EAGLE




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476873#476873











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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:07 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Warp Drive blades are solid carbon fiber. Each fiber runs from tip to grip
and back to tip. They are tough, efficient, reliable, and perform. Wish
you could see all the places my Warp Drive Props have pushed me. Would not
have attempted many of those flights with anything but Warp Drive.

Most of the other composite props are fiberglass/plastic over a foam core.
They won't stand up to the punishment a Warp Drive will.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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Gerry in Mi.



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 1
Location: Harrison, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: best props Reply with quote

I also have a 3 bladed Powerfin F-blade with same engine set up as your own. Has been a reliable and smooth prop for me, it meets the recommend mass limit for the b-box by Rotax.
The IVO was just slightly over, and the WARP DRIVE was way over the recommended limit. (It is a very tuff prop though)
The POWERFIN is stiffer than the IVO even though the IVO has a little easier pitch adjustment than the Powerfin. I had a IVO on my paraplane. I prefer the Powerfin over the IVO. Just my opinion, they are all good props.

Gerry Uebbing
Harrison, Mi
FireStar ll 503 2.58 b-box


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rascaljohn



Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

I'm Very interested to hear about prop choices and initial settings with adjustable pitch props. I am nearing completion of a FS II with a dcdi 503 ( 80 hrs TT) compression good, easy start, carbs set for this location, no intake leaks....plugs nice tan color.
warp drive 64" three blade, 2.58 B box initial set at 11 deg= max rpm 4800.
Re-pitched to 9.5 deg. = 5200 rpm. Re- pitch to 8.75 deg. But best rpm is 5800 rpm.
During tests tried enriching (choke) , moving jet needle, main jets. EGT around 950.
Brian at Kolb suggested initial prop setting of 12 deg. when I bought the prop from him.
Can't believe that the prop should be set at this low degree.
John Fitt from Sebastopol, Ca
Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Dec 29, 2017, at 5:44 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Props are one of those things that require a lot of thought. I’ve run two blade wooden props. (Tennessee propeller) very good at matching prop to specific engines. Real good composite leading edges are available. Reasonably priced.
I’ve run Ivoprops in both two and three blade configurations with good results, very adjustable. They held up well in sandy and decomposed granite runway conditions. The only downside was that they’re heavy and seem to take a little longer to wind up. The blades do flex a lot and on some Kolb models require a prop extension. Added cost.
At the present time I’m liking Powerfin propellers. Beautifully CNC machined hubs and light very stiff composite blades. Ceramic leading edges are available. I’m sure they’d be great in really abrasive conditions. Extra cost though. They come in two and three blade versions. They are expensive, but worth the it I think.
Warp Drives are really good looking props. They look really well made. I’ve heard that they are great propellers. I’ve been told that they’re on the heavy side too. But, that’s hearsay. I have no experience with them, so I have no opinion.
I think the two blade props are more efficient for around performance. But, I like three blades simply because I like the climb power and smoothness. I think that I will loose a little on cruise with a three blade. But, I’m all about takeoff and clearing trees up here. Just my input. It’s worth what it cost you. Just opinions. Have a great day! George

George Helton
1986 Firestar, FS100
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Do not archive


Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 29, 2017, at 6:31 PM, japowell <japnmjp(at)twc.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I sent the 503 out for a zero time rebuild to Heaven Bound Aviation in Johnstown. After looking at the prop, I found a few nicks and bruises on it and would like to replace it. What is the best prop for the 503? I have researched the achives and am still confused.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --------
> Jim P
> WAR EAGLE
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476873#476873
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Hi John, the only thing that I can see is that your EGT seems awfully low. It sounds like the mixture is to rich at full power.
I use to use 6500 rpm as a maximum rpm. Rotax says 6800 rpm for that engine I believe. EGT should run between 1000 to 1200F. To much oil in the fuel can also contribute to low horsepower and low EGT reading. You will probably pickup 200 to maybe 400 rpm when you actually apply full power on takeoff inflight. That’s my 2 cents. Just my opinions. Good luck! George
George Helton
1986 Firestar, FS 100
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Jan 6, 2018, at 1:06 PM, jpfitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



I'm Very interested to hear about prop choices and initial settings with adjustable pitch props. I am nearing completion of a FS II with a dcdi 503 ( 80 hrs TT) compression good, easy start, carbs set for this location, no intake leaks....plugs nice tan color.
warp drive 64" three blade, 2.58 B box initial set at 11 deg= max rpm 4800.
Re-pitched to 9.5 deg. = 5200 rpm. Re- pitch to 8.75 deg. But best rpm is 5800 rpm.
During tests tried enriching (choke) , moving jet needle, main jets. EGT around 950.
Brian at Kolb suggested initial prop setting of 12 deg. when I bought the prop from him.
Can't believe that the prop should be set at this low degree.
John Fitt from Sebastopol, Ca


Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 29, 2017, at 5:44 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Props are one of those things that require a lot of thought. I’ve run two blade wooden props. (Tennessee propeller) very good at matching prop to specific engines. Real good composite leading edges are available. Reasonably priced.
> I’ve run Ivoprops in both two and three blade configurations with good results, very adjustable. They held up well in sandy and decomposed granite runway conditions. The only downside was that they’re heavy and seem to take a little longer to wind up. The blades do flex a lot and on some Kolb models require a prop extension. Added cost.
> At the present time I’m liking Powerfin propellers. Beautifully CNC machined hubs and light very stiff composite blades. Ceramic leading edges are available. I’m sure they’d be great in really abrasive conditions. Extra cost though. They come in two and three blade versions. They are expensive, but worth the it I think.
> Warp Drives are really good looking props. They look really well made. I’ve heard that they are great propellers. I’ve been told that they’re on the heavy side too. But, that’s hearsay. I have no experience with them, so I have no opinion.
> I think the two blade props are more efficient for around performance. But, I like three blades simply because I like the climb power and smoothness. I think that I will loose a little on cruise with a three blade. But, I’m all about takeoff and clearing trees up here. Just my input. It’s worth what it cost you. Just opinions. Have a great day! George
>
> George Helton
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 29, 2017, at 6:31 PM, japowell <japnmjp(at)twc.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I sent the 503 out for a zero time rebuild to Heaven Bound Aviation in Johnstown. After looking at the prop, I found a few nicks and bruises on it and would like to replace it. What is the best prop for the 503? I have researched the achives and am still confused.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --------
>> Jim P
>> WAR EAGLE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476873#476873
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>







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lcottrell



Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1392
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

In regard to props and two strokes. It is my understanding that the three blade props gave smoother flight, and a bit faster level flight, while a two blade gives better climb, and is perhaps a bit noisier. A three blade of course needs to be pitched a bit flatter. I was also told that the proper way to pitch a prop was to tie it down by the tail to something solid and pitch it to 6300 rpm's at wide open throttle. That will give you the maximum of about 6700 unencumbered level flight, then you stabilize your egt's with your jets to about 1150 level flight.In regard to EGT levels it takes a bit of fiddling to get it squared away, and there is lots of discussion in the archives concerning EGTS as well as pitching props.
Larry
On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 11:06 AM, jpfitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jpfitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)>

I'm Very interested to hear about prop choices and initial settings with adjustable pitch props.  I am nearing completion of a FS II with a dcdi 503 ( 80 hrs TT) compression good, easy start, carbs set for this location, no intake leaks....plugs nice tan color.
warp drive 64" three blade, 2.58 B box initial set at 11 deg= max rpm 4800.
Re-pitched to 9.5 deg. = 5200 rpm. Re- pitch to 8.75 deg. But best rpm is 5800 rpm.
During tests tried enriching (choke) , moving jet needle, main jets. EGT around 950.
Brian at Kolb suggested initial prop setting of 12 deg. when I bought the prop from him.
Can't believe that the prop should be set at this low degree.
John Fitt from Sebastopol, Ca


Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 29, 2017, at 5:44 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Props are one of those things that require a lot of thought. I’ve run two blade wooden props. (Tennessee propeller) very good at matching prop to specific engines. Real good composite leading edges are available. Reasonably priced.
> I’ve run Ivoprops in both two and three blade configurations with good results, very adjustable. They held up well in sandy and decomposed granite runway conditions. The only downside was that they’re heavy and seem to take a little longer to wind up. The blades do flex a lot and on some Kolb models require a prop extension. Added cost.
> At the present time I’m liking Powerfin propellers. Beautifully CNC machined hubs and light very stiff composite blades. Ceramic leading edges are available. I’m sure they’d be great in really abrasive conditions. Extra cost though. They come in two and three blade versions. They are expensive, but worth the it I think.
> Warp Drives are really good looking props. They look really well made. I’ve heard that they are great propellers. I’ve been told that they’re on the heavy side too. But, that’s hearsay. I have no experience with them, so I have no opinion.
> I think the two blade props are more efficient for around performance. But, I like three blades simply because I like the climb power and smoothness. I think that I will loose a little on cruise with a three blade. But, I’m all about takeoff and clearing trees up here. Just my input. It’s worth what it cost you. Just opinions. Have a great day! George
>
> George Helton
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 29, 2017, at 6:31 PM, japowell <japnmjp(at)twc.com (japnmjp(at)twc.com)> wrote:
>>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "japowell" <japnmjp(at)twc.com (japnmjp(at)twc.com)>
>>
>> I sent the 503 out for a zero time rebuild to Heaven Bound Aviation in Johnstown.  After looking at the prop, I found a few nicks and bruises on it and would like to replace it. What is the best prop for the 503?  I have researched the achives and am still confused.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --------
>> Jim P
>> WAR EAGLE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476873#476873
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Same prop (60") and gear box here except on a 447.

I started at 13° but had to back it down to about 8° to get in the ball park. Had to fiddle with carb/pitch settings a little to get the proper EGT's. I don't remember exactly but I think it is currently at 7.5°

LOTS of power for a Firefly and really smooth over 2200 RPM.

Stuart

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rascaljohn



Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Thanks for the input guys. Can anyone tell me about their own configuration-Pitch, prop manufacture, engine type? When you were getting close to attaining the 6300 rpm was the final pitch adjustment very small...would a 1/2 degree make a big difference?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 6, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

In regard to props and two strokes. It is my understanding that the three blade props gave smoother flight, and a bit faster level flight, while a two blade gives better climb, and is perhaps a bit noisier. A three blade of course needs to be pitched a bit flatter. I was also told that the proper way to pitch a prop was to tie it down by the tail to something solid and pitch it to 6300 rpm's at wide open throttle. That will give you the maximum of about 6700 unencumbered level flight, then you stabilize your egt's with your jets to about 1150 level flight.In regard to EGT levels it takes a bit of fiddling to get it squared away, and there is lots of discussion in the archives concerning EGTS as well as pitching props.
Larry
On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 11:06 AM, jpfitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jpfitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)>

I'm Very interested to hear about prop choices and initial settings with adjustable pitch props. I am nearing completion of a FS II with a dcdi 503 ( 80 hrs TT) compression good, easy start, carbs set for this location, no intake leaks....plugs nice tan color.
warp drive 64" three blade, 2.58 B box initial set at 11 deg= max rpm 4800.
Re-pitched to 9.5 deg. = 5200 rpm. Re- pitch to 8.75 deg. But best rpm is 5800 rpm.
During tests tried enriching (choke) , moving jet needle, main jets. EGT around 950.
Brian at Kolb suggested initial prop setting of 12 deg. when I bought the prop from him.
Can't believe that the prop should be set at this low degree.
John Fitt from Sebastopol, Ca


Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 29, 2017, at 5:44 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Props are one of those things that require a lot of thought. I’ve run two blade wooden props. (Tennessee propeller) very good at matching prop to specific engines. Real good composite leading edges are available. Reasonably priced.
> I’ve run Ivoprops in both two and three blade configurations with good results, very adjustable. They held up well in sandy and decomposed granite runway conditions. The only downside was that they’re heavy and seem to take a little longer to wind up. The blades do flex a lot and on some Kolb models require a prop extension. Added cost.
> At the present time I’m liking Powerfin propellers. Beautifully CNC machined hubs and light very stiff composite blades. Ceramic leading edges are available. I’m sure they’d be great in really abrasive conditions. Extra cost though. They come in two and three blade versions. They are expensive, but worth the it I think.
> Warp Drives are really good looking props. They look really well made. I’ve heard that they are great propellers. I’ve been told that they’re on the heavy side too. But, that’s hearsay. I have no experience with them, so I have no opinion.
> I think the two blade props are more efficient for around performance. But, I like three blades simply because I like the climb power and smoothness. I think that I will loose a little on cruise with a three blade. But, I’m all about takeoff and clearing trees up here. Just my input. It’s worth what it cost you. Just opinions. Have a great day! George
>
> George Helton
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 29, 2017, at 6:31 PM, japowell <japnmjp(at)twc.com (japnmjp(at)twc.com)> wrote:
>>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "japowell" <japnmjp(at)twc.com (japnmjp(at)twc.com)>
>>
>> I sent the 503 out for a zero time rebuild to Heaven Bound Aviation in Johnstown. After looking at the prop, I found a few nicks and bruises on it and would like to replace it. What is the best prop for the 503? I have researched the achives and am still confused.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --------
>> Jim P
>> WAR EAGLE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476873#476873
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


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====================================
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.


If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.



--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.


If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.




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rascaljohn



Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Were the final pitch adjustments small compared to the first, did the engine “really come on strong”, with any EGT changes?

Sent from my iPhone

[quote] On Jan 6, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Stuart Harner <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> wrote:



Same prop (60") and gear box here except on a 447.

I started at 13° but had to back it down to about 8° to get in the ball park. Had to fiddle with carb/pitch settings a little to get the proper EGT's. I don't remember exactly but I think it is currently at 7.5°

LOTS of power for a Firefly and really smooth over 2200 RPM.

Stuart

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lcottrell



Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1392
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

I am running an HKS with a 66 inch two blade warp with nickle leading edge. I just set it to max rpm of 6000. It took about three or four attempts and I guessed at the static allowing the same increase that would be for a two stroke.which was 4000 rpm gain. Then I think I got it close enough after a coupe of minor adjustments. EGT isn't a problem with the HKS so that was one less thing to worry about. Prior to that I had a 503 with a two blade IVO, and later with a three blade IVO.

Its worth the effort to get it right. You should remember if the egt's flare up in midrange (which is where the problem will show up) use the "enrichner (choke) to give it more fuel and reduce the egt's. Stay in the pattern for your tests, and if necessary you can just cut the engine.
It will be a bit of a hassle, but worth it.
Larry 
On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 4:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for the input guys. Can anyone tell me about their own configuration-Pitch, prop manufacture, engine type? When you were getting close to attaining the 6300 rpm was the final pitch adjustment very small...would a 1/2 degree make a big difference?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 6, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

In regard to props and two strokes. It is my understanding that the three blade props gave smoother flight, and a bit faster level flight, while a two blade gives better climb, and is perhaps a bit noisier. A three blade of course needs to be pitched a bit flatter. I was also told that the proper way to pitch a prop was to tie it down by the tail to something solid and pitch it to 6300 rpm's at wide open throttle. That will give you the maximum of about 6700 unencumbered level flight, then you stabilize your egt's with your jets to about 1150 level flight.In regard to EGT levels it takes a bit of fiddling to get it squared away, and there is lots of discussion in the archives concerning EGTS as well as pitching props.
Larry
On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 11:06 AM, jpfitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jpfitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)>

I'm Very interested to hear about prop choices and initial settings with adjustable pitch props.  I am nearing completion of a FS II with a dcdi 503 ( 80 hrs TT) compression good, easy start, carbs set for this location, no intake leaks....plugs nice tan color.
warp drive 64" three blade, 2.58 B box initial set at 11 deg= max rpm 4800.
Re-pitched to 9.5 deg. = 5200 rpm. Re- pitch to 8.75 deg. But best rpm is 5800 rpm.
During tests tried enriching (choke) , moving jet needle, main jets. EGT around 950.
Brian at Kolb suggested initial prop setting of 12 deg. when I bought the prop from him.
Can't believe that the prop should be set at this low degree.
John Fitt from Sebastopol, Ca


Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 29, 2017, at 5:44 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Props are one of those things that require a lot of thought. I’ve run two blade wooden props. (Tennessee propeller) very good at matching prop to specific engines. Real good composite leading edges are available. Reasonably priced.
> I’ve run Ivoprops in both two and three blade configurations with good results, very adjustable. They held up well in sandy and decomposed granite runway conditions. The only downside was that they’re heavy and seem to take a little longer to wind up. The blades do flex a lot and on some Kolb models require a prop extension. Added cost.
> At the present time I’m liking Powerfin propellers. Beautifully CNC machined hubs and light very stiff composite blades. Ceramic leading edges are available. I’m sure they’d be great in really abrasive conditions. Extra cost though. They come in two and three blade versions. They are expensive, but worth the it I think.
> Warp Drives are really good looking props. They look really well made. I’ve heard that they are great propellers. I’ve been told that they’re on the heavy side too. But, that’s hearsay. I have no experience with them, so I have no opinion.
> I think the two blade props are more efficient for around performance. But, I like three blades simply because I like the climb power and smoothness. I think that I will loose a little on cruise with a three blade. But, I’m all about takeoff and clearing trees up here. Just my input. It’s worth what it cost you. Just opinions. Have a great day! George
>
> George Helton
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 29, 2017, at 6:31 PM, japowell <japnmjp(at)twc.com (japnmjp(at)twc.com)> wrote:
>>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "japowell" <japnmjp(at)twc.com (japnmjp(at)twc.com)>
>>
>> I sent the 503 out for a zero time rebuild to Heaven Bound Aviation in Johnstown.  After looking at the prop, I found a few nicks and bruises on it and would like to replace it. What is the best prop for the 503?  I have researched the achives and am still confused.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --------
>> Jim P
>> WAR EAGLE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476873#476873
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


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The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.


If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.






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If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.


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rascaljohn



Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Thanks! I guess I’ll take the pitch down to 8 deg. John Fitt

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 6, 2018, at 4:03 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I am running an HKS with a 66 inch two blade warp with nickle leading edge. I just set it to max rpm of 6000. It took about three or four attempts and I guessed at the static allowing the same increase that would be for a two stroke.which was 4000 rpm gain. Then I think I got it close enough after a coupe of minor adjustments. EGT isn't a problem with the HKS so that was one less thing to worry about. Prior to that I had a 503 with a two blade IVO, and later with a three blade IVO.

Its worth the effort to get it right. You should remember if the egt's flare up in midrange (which is where the problem will show up) use the "enrichner (choke) to give it more fuel and reduce the egt's. Stay in the pattern for your tests, and if necessary you can just cut the engine.
It will be a bit of a hassle, but worth it.
Larry
On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 4:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for the input guys. Can anyone tell me about their own configuration-Pitch, prop manufacture, engine type? When you were getting close to attaining the 6300 rpm was the final pitch adjustment very small...would a 1/2 degree make a big difference?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 6, 2018, at 12:37 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

In regard to props and two strokes. It is my understanding that the three blade props gave smoother flight, and a bit faster level flight, while a two blade gives better climb, and is perhaps a bit noisier. A three blade of course needs to be pitched a bit flatter. I was also told that the proper way to pitch a prop was to tie it down by the tail to something solid and pitch it to 6300 rpm's at wide open throttle. That will give you the maximum of about 6700 unencumbered level flight, then you stabilize your egt's with your jets to about 1150 level flight.In regard to EGT levels it takes a bit of fiddling to get it squared away, and there is lots of discussion in the archives concerning EGTS as well as pitching props.
Larry
On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 11:06 AM, jpfitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: jpfitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)>

I'm Very interested to hear about prop choices and initial settings with adjustable pitch props. I am nearing completion of a FS II with a dcdi 503 ( 80 hrs TT) compression good, easy start, carbs set for this location, no intake leaks....plugs nice tan color.
warp drive 64" three blade, 2.58 B box initial set at 11 deg= max rpm 4800.
Re-pitched to 9.5 deg. = 5200 rpm. Re- pitch to 8.75 deg. But best rpm is 5800 rpm.
During tests tried enriching (choke) , moving jet needle, main jets. EGT around 950.
Brian at Kolb suggested initial prop setting of 12 deg. when I bought the prop from him.
Can't believe that the prop should be set at this low degree.
John Fitt from Sebastopol, Ca


Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 29, 2017, at 5:44 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Props are one of those things that require a lot of thought. I’ve run two blade wooden props. (Tennessee propeller) very good at matching prop to specific engines. Real good composite leading edges are available. Reasonably priced.
> I’ve run Ivoprops in both two and three blade configurations with good results, very adjustable. They held up well in sandy and decomposed granite runway conditions. The only downside was that they’re heavy and seem to take a little longer to wind up. The blades do flex a lot and on some Kolb models require a prop extension. Added cost.
> At the present time I’m liking Powerfin propellers. Beautifully CNC machined hubs and light very stiff composite blades. Ceramic leading edges are available. I’m sure they’d be great in really abrasive conditions. Extra cost though. They come in two and three blade versions. They are expensive, but worth the it I think.
> Warp Drives are really good looking props. They look really well made. I’ve heard that they are great propellers. I’ve been told that they’re on the heavy side too. But, that’s hearsay. I have no experience with them, so I have no opinion.
> I think the two blade props are more efficient for around performance. But, I like three blades simply because I like the climb power and smoothness. I think that I will loose a little on cruise with a three blade. But, I’m all about takeoff and clearing trees up here. Just my input. It’s worth what it cost you. Just opinions. Have a great day! George
>
> George Helton
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 29, 2017, at 6:31 PM, japowell <japnmjp(at)twc.com (japnmjp(at)twc.com)> wrote:
>>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "japowell" <japnmjp(at)twc.com (japnmjp(at)twc.com)>
>>
>> I sent the 503 out for a zero time rebuild to Heaven Bound Aviation in Johnstown. After looking at the prop, I found a few nicks and bruises on it and would like to replace it. What is the best prop for the 503? I have researched the achives and am still confused.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --------
>> Jim P
>> WAR EAGLE
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476873#476873
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>


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===========
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
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-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========





--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.


If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.



The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.


If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.






--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.


If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.



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johngilpin



Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 87
Location: 004

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:07 am    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

At what point are you measuring the pitch?? Some do it at the tip but tradition does it 24" out from the center. 
On a Warp drive I measured a difference of 7 degrees between 24" and the tip, less at the tip of course....
See http://www.stolspeed.com/id/62 for careful prop comparisons. 
The results are sobering.....


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rascaljohn



Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Warp drive recommends placing the protractor at the tip. Tried different methods. Raised the tail to make the prop hub exactly plumb (0 deg. ) then adjusted each blade using a “crutch” that held the blade level.
Maybe the mixture is too rich at full throttle giving lower EGT and loss of power, but the plugs look good to me...while experimenting with the main jets at the present pitch I saw the plugs going towards white with a slight decrease in max attainable rpm.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 7, 2018, at 12:07 AM, JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com (j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At what point are you measuring the pitch?? Some do it at the tip but tradition does it 24" out from the center.
On a Warp drive I measured a difference of 7 degrees between 24" and the tip, less at the tip of course....
See http://www.stolspeed.com/id/62 for careful prop comparisons.
The results are sobering.....




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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Been a long time since my two stroke days, but I still remember a few of the procedures I used to stay alive.

Initially, I chased EGTs, spark plugs, main jets, etc.  Finally, I discovered that Rotax shipped their engines tuned for 0 to 1500 or it may have been 3000 feet MSL with a very wide OAT range.  It was not necessary to try and do something the factory had already done.

The primary problem with tuning, getting the EGT in the range called for by your Rotax manual, was prop loading.  Discovered this while screwing around in the air with my Ultrastar and Cuyuna ULIII02.  I noticed when at cruise RPM if I pushed the nose over the EGT increased.  When I pulled the nose up the EGT decreased.  I noticed the engine was very sensitive to prop loading.  Changing pitch attitude is same as prop pitch change when loading and unloading the engine.

From then on I insured I pitched the prop correctly.  Loading the engine so it would just bump the tach red line WOT (wide open throttle), straight and level flight.  If I did this the EGTs would be right where they were supposed to be per the Rotax engine manual.

At cruise RPM, which is much leaner than WOT RPM, I adjusted fuel needle height to get correct EGT.

Static RPM should probably be 400 to 500 RPM (I no longer remember the difference between static and WOT, straight and level flight RPM).  

Minor adjustments of jets and needles may be necessary to tune the engine for OAT and altitude, but nothing major if the prop is pitched correctly.  I think the OAT range was pretty wide.

One of our Kolbers fabricated a laser for Warp Drive prop adjuster.  He sent me one.  I use the protractor to adjust one blade, then use the laser to adjust the other blades to be exactly the same pitch as the first.  Having all blades exactly same pitch is important.  I make sure the aircraft is secure.  Make a dot on the laser point on a piece of wood on the floor with the first blade adjusted with the protractor.  Then adjust the other blades to get that laser right on the dot.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama



From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Fitt
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2018 10:31 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: best props

Warp drive recommends placing the protractor at the tip. Tried different methods.
Raised the tail to make the prop hub exactly plumb (0 deg. ) then adjusted each blade using a “crutch” that held the blade level.

Maybe the mixture is too rich at full throttle giving lower EGT and loss of power, but the plugs look good to me...while experimenting with the main jets at the present pitch I saw the plugs going towards white with a slight decrease in max attainable rpm.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 7, 2018, at 12:07 AM, JC Gilpin <j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com (j.gilpin(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:
Quote:

At what point are you measuring the pitch??
Some do it at the tip but tradition does it 24" out from the center.

On a Warp drive I measured a difference of 7 degrees between 24" and the tip, less at the tip of course....



See http://www.stolspeed.com/id/62 for careful prop comparisons.

The results are sobering.....






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MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

EGT is pretty critical on a 2-stroke. Think blow torch on the exhaust port. EGT is determined by mixture and engine loading.

Rotax (maybe all) engines with Bing (maybe all) carbs are known to run towards lean in the mid-range.

So think of it this way. For max HP output you want the engine running near its red line but you don't want it to go over that and self-destruct. Setting the max full throttle RPM of 6300 (static) on the ground will give you a close to red line RPM when straight and level.

Once you get that set you can go about checking the mixture (EGT and CHT temps) while running the engine static on the ground. Usually factory settings are sufficient to get you through the break in hour. Elevation and air temp will play some part in this too.

Once you get airborne you will be able to start the fine tuning which is usually just moving the needle up or down a notch or two. Sometimes you have to change needles and or jets. That is a little far into the weeds for initial setup concerns. Or tweak the propeller pitch but usually if you get the static RPM right you won't have to unless it over revs in level flight at full throttle.

In my case I had to raise the needle to get it to quit running lean on descent. I still have to watch it carefully if I am near 4000 RPM and push the nose over too far in descent. This "unloads" the prop meaning that the energy produced by burning fuel is not being converted to thrust but is dumping overboard through the exhaust. Changing throttle setting or adding a little "choke" helps cure that. I was admonished for doing the "choke" thing as if you forget it and have to jab the throttle you are asking for an engine out. So use this technique at your own risk.

Reading the plugs is the best way to know if your mixture is right as temperature probes have been known to be less than accurate at times. The plugs never lie, or so I have been told.

If you don't have them already, get the manual for the engine that will tell you the break in procedure and the operating temp limits. Then also get a carburetor manual as it will explain in detail how the carb works all through the operating range. It helped me figure out what was going on and what needed attention at each stage of the process.

Firefly
Rotax 447 B box 2.58:1
Warp Drive 60" 3 blade
Stuart
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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Bing carbs use an enricher, rather than a choke. There is an enricher well and enricher jet in the float bowl. Going full throttle with the enricher full on probably will not result in an engine out, at least for me. When the enricher is activated the fuel in the enricher well is dumped and additional fuel is pulled through the enricher jet. So...if I understand correctly, when the enricher is activated air flow is not reduced, but we are now running with a richer mixture which is not enough to kill the engine. A choke restricts airflow.

BTW, your explanation of how to tune for prop and carb is much better than my previous feeble attempt.

Respectfully,

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: best props Reply with quote

Yup, that is why I put the quotes around "choke".

I had an engine stoppage on roll out after landing when I forgot to turn off the enricher circuit. Flooded a warm engine, I did. (Yoda voice)

If you use the enricher to control mixture on decent, it would be best to develop the habit of turning it off prior to any throttle changes. Something that only practice can provide. Then when you are distracted (or old and forgetful).....

John, you were the one that explained prop loading to me so that I could understand it back in my engine/prop setup days.

So there!

Stuart

Do not archive

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