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Rib to spar attachment.

 
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simmor2



Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Murfreesboro, TN

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:56 am    Post subject: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at top and bottom securing to the spar.

Is this what you guys do/did?

This is just enough to hold general position.

- Rich


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

Most don’t do it this way. Many don’t secure at all. I tacked through the vertical brace into the side of the spar

Jack Textor

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Jan 2, 2018, at 8:55 AM, Comcast <4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net> wrote:

In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at top and bottom securing to the spar.

Is this what you guys do/did?

This is just enough to hold general position.

<image1.jpeg>



- Rich


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pietflyer



Joined: 19 Jun 2017
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

That's all you will need, and I wouldn't do it until you have your wing
trammeled and the drag and anti drag wires tight. You might need to move a
rib or two to clear the bracing wires on the rib diagonals. Once the fabric
is in place and the rib lacing is done, the ribs are very secure.

Jack Phillips
Pietenpol NX899JP "Icarus Plummet", flying for 13 years
RV-10 N142KW, under construction, hopefully flying this year
--


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glen



Joined: 17 Sep 2013
Posts: 166
Location: Oregon Coast

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

All the nails do is maintain position while glue cures
Quote:
On Jan 2, 2018, at 6:55 AM, Comcast <4rcsimmons(at)comcast.net> wrote:

In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at top and bottom securing to the spar.

Is this what you guys do/did?

This is just enough to hold general position.

<image1.jpeg>



- Rich


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:20 am    Post subject: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

Good point JP, I had to move or modify a couple of ribs to clear the cables...

Jack Textor

Sent from my iPad

[quote] On Jan 2, 2018, at 9:12 AM, Jack Philips <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com> wrote:



That's all you will need, and I wouldn't do it until you have your wing
trammeled and the drag and anti drag wires tight. You might need to move a
rib or two to clear the bracing wires on the rib diagonals. Once the fabric
is in place and the rib lacing is done, the ribs are very secure.

Jack Phillips
Pietenpol NX899JP "Icarus Plummet", flying for 13 years
RV-10 N142KW, under construction, hopefully flying this year


--


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pietflyer



Joined: 19 Jun 2017
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:22 am    Post subject: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

Glue is not necessary, and might be detrimental if you ever need to replace
a rib. I did not glue my ribs in place.

Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia

--


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John Black



Joined: 23 May 2016
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

I would appreciate any comments on my plan for assembling the ribs and spars.
I am using Aluminum Spars from Carlson Aircraft. My plan is to make a filler for the side of the spar facing the rib…. a 1/2” wide (maybe 1” wide) x 3/8” thick piece of spruce to fill the ~4.25” space between the bottom & top rails… relieved for the top channel and bulbs on the spar. (See picture) To assemble I would slide the filler into place. I want to make sure the rib stays square to the spar. I want to experiment to determine whether to epoxy the rib to the filler. If the rib stays square when epoxied to the filler and the rib/filler can be slid along the spar in case it needs to move for diagonal wires… then I’d use a single screw/nut in the center of the spar to hold the rib in location. If this approach had problems, then use no epoxy between rib and filler and use 2 #8 screws with nuts to hold the filler and rib to the spar... drilling 2 holes for screws 1.5” apart (1.5” from the top & bottom of spar).

I have some small concern about drilling the spar, but the center of the web is doing little work so I think that would be acceptable.

Since I’ve never done this before, any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

John
La Conner, WA
[img]cid:3E5455E5-03FB-497E-8BF1-1F9DD28BE7A1(at)wavecable.com[/img]On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Jack Philips <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com (jack(at)bedfordlandings.com)> wrote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com (jack(at)bedfordlandings.com)>Glue is not necessary, and might be detrimental if you ever need to replacea rib. I did not glue my ribs in place. Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia--


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

Uncharted territory there John. Was your reason for aluminum weight savings? Do you know how it’s strength compare to plans spar? Using it will mean changes in many areas for things attached to the spar.

Jack Textor
Sent from my iPad

On Jan 2, 2018, at 10:11 AM, John C Black <john(at)jcblack.com (john(at)jcblack.com)> wrote:
[quote]I would appreciate any comments on my plan for assembling the ribs and spars.
I am using Aluminum Spars from Carlson Aircraft. My plan is to make a filler for the side of the spar facing the rib…. a 1/2” wide (maybe 1” wide) x 3/8” thick piece of spruce to fill the ~4.25” space between the bottom & top rails… relieved for the top channel and bulbs on the spar. (See picture) To assemble I would slide the filler into place. I want to make sure the rib stays square to the spar. I want to experiment to determine whether to epoxy the rib to the filler. If the rib stays square when epoxied to the filler and the rib/filler can be slid along the spar in case it needs to move for diagonal wires… then I’d use a single screw/nut in the center of the spar to hold the rib in location. If this approach had problems, then use no epoxy between rib and filler and use 2 #8 screws with nuts to hold the filler and rib to the spar... drilling 2 holes for screws 1.5” apart (1.5” from the top & bottom of spar).

I have some small concern about drilling the spar, but the center of the web is doing little work so I think that would be acceptable.

Since I’ve never done this before, any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

John
La Conner, WA
<000-Spar.JPG>On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Jack Philips <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com (jack(at)bedfordlandings.com)> wrote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Jack Philips" <jack(at)bedfordlandings.com (jack(at)bedfordlandings.com)>Glue is not necessary, and might be detrimental if you ever need to replacea rib. I did not glue my ribs in place. Jack PhillipsNX899JP "Icarus Plummet"Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia--


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jarheadpilot82



Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 699
Location: Athens, GA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

John,

I am also using the aluminum extruded spars. I did the spacers pretty much as you described and epoxied them to the spar, clamping them until the epoxy dried. I then installed the ribs, slid them into the position I wanted them to be on the spacers, then installed the drag/antidrag wires, and finally trammeled my wings. I wanted the ribs to be equally spaced, and to do so, I had to dremel out a slot/space in one or two diagonals. After the diagonals were slotted, I added additional diagonals behind the slotted ones to reinforce them. I then epoxied the ribs into place. I wanted to ensure a solid transfer of the aerodynamic loads between the ribs and the spars and was advised to glue them in place. I used a pin nailer to nail the ribs in place until they dried.

Two things I would suggest, First, ensure your spacers are wide enough (mine were about 1 and 1/2 inches wide) so you can move the ribs off the center of the spacer if you need to and choose to move the ribs to clear the drag/anti-drag wires. Second, if you choose to screw the ribs into place, I think that one screw in the center of the shear web would be best, the loads are lowest at the center of the shear web, and using the smallest screw possible should not affect the spar strength.

One other thing. Don't forget that you need to install 1/2 X 1/2 internal supports. You may want to add spacers in the places you plan to glue those spacers. You could probably glue straight to the spar, but I chose to glue spacers in those places on the ribs and glue the internal supports to the wood spacers.

My $.02. YMMV. Keep us posted.


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Terry Hand
Athens, GA
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taildrags



Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 1608
Location: Medford, OR

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Rib to spar attachment. Reply with quote

OK, I am ready to duck into my foxhole after I hit <send> and the shooting starts, but I'm going to poke at the aluminum spar vs. wood spar topic. First of all though, I'll say that the second installment of my upcoming series on Piet wing spars (BPA Newsletter) will dig deeply into the weight and strength comparison of almost a dozen different wing spar variations that are seen on the Sky Scout and Air Camper, so what I'll throw out right now are just a few numbers that I've come up with but I'll present no figgerin' to back up those numbers. Get the newsletter to get the figgerin' ;o)

Best I can tell and calculate from the drawings in the 1932 Flying & Glider Manual, there is about 0.715 cu. ft. of spruce in a routed 1" spar that measures 29 ft from tip to tip. That spruce will weigh 20.02 lb. A built-up "I" spar of the same dimensions will probably weigh a little more due to the plywood in the web and the glue used in the buildup, but it will perform about the same and is a great option. Some judicious lightening holes in the plywood webs can also improve the strength-to-weight ratio and are probably needed anyway to allow brace cables and stiffeners to pass through the web.

Let's say that the routed 1" spruce spar is good for a maximum bending moment of 2475 ft-lb (see my first installment, coming out soon in the Newsletter). Now comparing the data published by Carlson for their 4-A extruded spar, I get a weight of right at 19 lb for a 29 ft spar length, and from my figgerin' I get a maximum bending moment of 2407 ft-lb. From this I conclude that the routed 1" spruce spar and the Carlson 4-A spar are almost identical in weight and strength.

Now let's look at cost and ignore labor since experimental aircraft builders all work for free, right? ;o) Aircraft Spruce shows 1" x 4-3/4" spruce spar stock at $9.28/ft for a cost of $269.12 for 29 feet. Carlson shows the 4-A aluminum spar material at $103 for a 14 ft length. If we cheat a bit and say we can make the outer 6" of the wingtips out of something other than aluminum spar stock so we can use standard length Carlson spars, two 14-footers will cost a total of $206.

Using the spruce spars there's work to do the routing and smoothing. Using the aluminum spars there's work to do the fitting of blocks to get the ribs to attach to the spars neatly. Either way, there's work to do. Either way, the cost is roughly the same. Either way, you should get just about the same outcome once it gets in the air. So now we're down to pitting spruce vs. aluminum in the never-ending circular argument that won Miller Lite the ranking of 8th best advertising campaign in history: "tastes great, or less filling?" ;o) The aluminum spars appear to be a very nice, very viable option, especially if you don't have good wood available or if you're better at metal-working than at wood-working.


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Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
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