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VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks Reply with quote

Kelly, I thought I remembered it was you but wasn't sure.  Thanks again!  You know if you ever get out east you have a friend at 8NC8 - anything.  And I'm always looking to play it forward.

I was hoping someone would suggest a 2nd Archer because that would be the simplest thing for me to do at this point.  The funny thing is that everyone mentions the GS being the problem but I clearly have a LOC problem at KAGC 28, in addition to the GS.   Otherwise my GS works fine.  I really haven't done much testing with my second NAV - only practice approaches and it seems to work fine.  Having each NAV hooked up to it's own antenna would not only boost signal strength but  would be a better backup configuration.  Hmmm.

On 1/22/2018 10:27 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

Quote:
IIRC Bill, I think it was your plane that I assisted with some crimpers and/or connectors for your RG400 modifications.

I think if you replaced that Archer com antenna with a second nav antenna so that each of your nav units had an antenna without a splitter, your problem on the ILS would go away.

My previous plane had two navs, one with remote GS and the other with built-in GS, all running off one cat whisker antenna, with two splitters to get signal to all units.

On some approaches one of the ILSs would be weak and flakey (technical term).  I have to Archer Nav antennas, one each to individual nav coms with GS. So far I haven't seen any problems.

Kelly





Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame








On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

Okay, this is a very valuable thread that is helping me figure out a few things that I should have figured out sometime ago.  I'll share my experiences in the hope it helps others and I'll ask some questions looking for more insight.

First, my GPS setup is 100% by the book and works flawlessly.

I originally installed 2 Archers - a Nav and a Comm.  The Archer Nav is my sole Nav antenna but I had a whip or whisker for my other Comm.  I long ago got rid of the Archer Comm but I'll come back to that.  I've made a good number of ILS approaches to various airports in IMC.  I fly into a good number of larger airports and the ILS is assigned by default.  Generally no problem but I've consistently had problems with the KAGC's ILS for 28.

I've been flying into KAGC a lot over the last few years and I often get vectors for the ILS to 28.  I noticed that my AP generally missed the left turn for the intercept and the GS was jumpy.   I would just have to disconnect it to hand fly it.  I gave up on the AP and still found it difficult to get the intercept precisely  so I just got in the habit of requesting the RNAV and have  no problems.  Recently I decided to try a few in VMC and found that the needles were simply unuseable**.  I did a few more tests at other airports and had no problems with needles - steady as a rock.  But not at KAGC 28.  I've wanted to blame the ILS but based on this thread, I'm convinced it's the Archer (my Archer is split to feed two NAVs).  At this point after 6 years, I'm planning to put some whiskers on.  It's not that I fly a lot of IMC or a lot of hard and low  IMC, it's just that I file every flight, I work to stay current, most of it is east of the Mississippi and sometimes, not always predictably, I do an approach to minimums.  It all has to work.

I don't really understand exactly what static wicks do, when they are most needed and why I might consider them.  Based on this thread, I think I encountered a single situation where I needed them.  I'd appreciate your comments and any pointers to more information.  What happened was this: About 5 years ago I flew from NC to Phoenix.  Coming into Phoenix from Santa Fe I was up over 10K and was slam dunked into Phoenix's airspace.  As I started a high speed descent I ran through some snow virga (!!) and simultaneously lost the Nav radio I was using.  I swear there was lightening in my peripheral vision.   I slowed down, changed radios, declared 'unable', got some vectors, and finally put it down in sunny Scottsdale.

The radio had been using a whisker antenna but was now dead.  Got some help from someone here on the list (it's been awhile but thanks again) to try and trouble shoot it since I didn't want to fly across the country with a single Comm.  It stayed dead but during the course of flying around Phoenix I discovered that the Archer Comm antenna just wasn't performing well enough to be my sole antenna for such a cross country trip.  So I spent some time swapping antenna's on my working radio to get home.

Was this possibly caused by some kind of static discharge?  Is that what might have killed my radio?  Is that what static wicks are designed to prevent?

Anyway, I continued to fly with the Archer Comm and actually used it as my 'primary' radio.  It worked fine most of the time.  But occasionally I'd have a comm problem and would have to switch to get maximum range.  Conversely my belly mounted whisker would have problems  when on the ground and I'd use the Archer.  Finally I removed the Archer and mounted a 2nd belly whisker.  Now when I have problems on the ground (KCLT ground at Wilson Air for example) I switch to the other radio on the other whisker and I'm able to communicate.  It's clear to me now that the whiskers far outperform the Archer Comm, but that's pretty well understood by Archer users.   It's a sleek backup solution on the Comm side.

At this point I'm starting to shop for some Nav whiskers and the easiest way to add them to my 7 yo plane.  I'm thinking that I will not be installing static wicks but think I need to recognize that as a limitation though I'm not sure how to mitigate the risks in that area.  I need to learn more there.

Bill "haven't scared myself in the '10 yet and would like to keep it that way" Watson

** so how can a successful ILS be completed in the soup with unuseable needles?  Jumpy needles overlaying a synthethic vision display with a flight path marker can let you convince yourself that you just did an outstanding job handflying thru some nasty turbulence, as long as you turn off the flight director.... is that too much technology?



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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks Reply with quote

Yes. I am puzzled by the suggestion that the Archer might not be tuned
for GS. Cat Whiskers and towel bar and blade antennas are all tuned for
108 to 117 Mhz. GS is roughly a 3 times multiple of that, and you should
not be using a GS beyond about 10 nm for approaches, where most
intercepts are between 7 and 4 nm. Signal strength should only be an
issue if using one or more splitters. I figure that having antenna on
each wing tip if there is any airframe blanking that you can just swap
to your other nav for that approach.
Kelly

On 1/23/2018 11:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
Quote:
Kelly, I thought I remembered it was you but wasn't sure.  Thanks
again!  You know if you ever get out east you have a friend at 8NC8 -
anything.  And I'm always looking to play it forward.

I was hoping someone would suggest a 2nd Archer because that would be
the simplest thing for me to do at this point.  The funny thing is that
everyone mentions the GS being the problem but I clearly have a LOC
problem at KAGC 28, in addition to the GS.   Otherwise my GS works
fine.  I really haven't done much testing with my second NAV - only
practice approaches and it seems to work fine. Having each NAV hooked up
to it's own antenna would not only boost signal strength but  would be a
better backup configuration. Hmmm.

On 1/22/2018 10:27 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> IIRC Bill, I think it was your plane that I assisted with some
> crimpers and/or connectors for your RG400 modifications.
> I think if you replaced that Archer com antenna with a second nav
> antenna so that each of your nav units had an antenna without a
> splitter, your problem on the ILS would go away.
> My previous plane had two navs, one with remote GS and the other with
> built-in GS, all running off one cat whisker antenna, with two
> splitters to get signal to all units.
> On some approaches one of the ILSs would be weak and flakey (technical
> term).  I have to Archer Nav antennas, one each to individual nav coms
> with GS. So far I haven't seen any problems.
> Kelly
> Sent from my IBM-360 main frame
>
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
> <mailto:Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>> wrote:
>
>
> <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com <mailto:Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>>
>
> Okay, this is a very valuable thread that is helping me figure out
> a few things that I should have figured out sometime ago.  I'll
> share my experiences in the hope it helps others and I'll ask some
> questions looking for more insight.
>
> First, my GPS setup is 100% by the book and works flawlessly.
>
> I originally installed 2 Archers - a Nav and a Comm.  The Archer
> Nav is my sole Nav antenna but I had a whip or whisker for my
> other Comm.  I long ago got rid of the Archer Comm but I'll come
> back to that.  I've made a good number of ILS approaches to
> various airports in IMC.  I fly into a good number of larger
> airports and the ILS is assigned by default.  Generally no problem
> but I've consistently had problems with the KAGC's ILS for 28.
>
> I've been flying into KAGC a lot over the last few years and I
> often get vectors for the ILS to 28.  I noticed that my AP
> generally missed the left turn for the intercept and the GS was
> jumpy.   I would just have to disconnect it to hand fly it.  I
> gave up on the AP and still found it difficult to get the
> intercept precisely  so I just got in the habit of requesting the
> RNAV and have  no problems.  Recently I decided to try a few in
> VMC and found that the needles were simply unuseable**.  I did a
> few more tests at other airports and had no problems with needles
> - steady as a rock.  But not at KAGC 28.  I've wanted to blame the
> ILS but based on this thread, I'm convinced it's the Archer (my
> Archer is split to feed two NAVs).  At this point after 6 years,
> I'm planning to put some whiskers on.  It's not that I fly a lot
> of IMC or a lot of hard and low  IMC, it's just that I file every
> flight, I work to stay current, most of it is east of the
> Mississippi and sometimes, not always predictably, I do an
> approach to minimums.  It all has to work.
>
> I don't really understand exactly what static wicks do, when they
> are most needed and why I might consider them.  Based on this
> thread, I think I encountered a single situation where I needed
> them.  I'd appreciate your comments and any pointers to more
> information.  What happened was this: About 5 years ago I flew
> from NC to Phoenix.  Coming into Phoenix from Santa Fe I was up
> over 10K and was slam dunked into Phoenix's airspace.  As I
> started a high speed descent I ran through some snow virga (!!)
> and simultaneously lost the Nav radio I was using.  I swear there
> was lightening in my peripheral vision.   I slowed down, changed
> radios, declared 'unable', got some vectors, and finally put it
> down in sunny Scottsdale.
>
> The radio had been using a whisker antenna but was now dead.  Got
> some help from someone here on the list (it's been awhile but
> thanks again) to try and trouble shoot it since I didn't want to
> fly across the country with a single Comm.  It stayed dead but
> during the course of flying around Phoenix I discovered that the
> Archer Comm antenna just wasn't performing well enough to be my
> sole antenna for such a cross country trip.  So I spent some time
> swapping antenna's on my working radio to get home.
>
> Was this possibly caused by some kind of static discharge? Is that
> what might have killed my radio?  Is that what static wicks are
> designed to prevent?
>
> Anyway, I continued to fly with the Archer Comm and actually used
> it as my 'primary' radio.  It worked fine most of the time.  But
> occasionally I'd have a comm problem and would have to switch to
> get maximum range.  Conversely my belly mounted whisker would have
> problems  when on the ground and I'd use the Archer.  Finally I
> removed the Archer and mounted a 2nd belly whisker.  Now when I
> have problems on the ground (KCLT ground at Wilson Air for
> example) I switch to the other radio on the other whisker and I'm
> able to communicate.  It's clear to me now that the whiskers far
> outperform the Archer Comm, but that's pretty well understood by
> Archer users.   It's a sleek backup solution on the Comm side.
>
> At this point I'm starting to shop for some Nav whiskers and the
> easiest way to add them to my 7 yo plane.  I'm thinking that I
> will not be installing static wicks but think I need to recognize
> that as a limitation though I'm not sure how to mitigate the risks
> in that area.  I need to learn more there.
>
> Bill "haven't scared myself in the '10 yet and would like to keep
> it that way" Watson
>
> ** so how can a successful ILS be completed in the soup with
> unuseable needles?  Jumpy needles overlaying a synthethic vision
> display with a flight path marker can let you convince yourself
> that you just did an outstanding job handflying thru some nasty
> turbulence, as long as you turn off the flight director.... is
> that too much technology?
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> ====================================
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ====================================
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ====================================
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ====================================
> b Site -
>           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ====================================
>
>


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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD
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View user's profile Send private message
Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:23 pm    Post subject: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks Reply with quote

Second thought. IF GS were the problem, there are GS antennas that are
typically mounted near the top of the windshield that would also be
easier than installing the cat whisker. And are tuned for GS freqs only,
so rather short.

On 1/23/2018 11:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
Quote:
Kelly, I thought I remembered it was you but wasn't sure.  Thanks
again!  You know if you ever get out east you have a friend at 8NC8 -
anything.  And I'm always looking to play it forward.

I was hoping someone would suggest a 2nd Archer because that would be
the simplest thing for me to do at this point.  The funny thing is that
everyone mentions the GS being the problem but I clearly have a LOC
problem at KAGC 28, in addition to the GS.   Otherwise my GS works
fine.  I really haven't done much testing with my second NAV - only
practice approaches and it seems to work fine. Having each NAV hooked up
to it's own antenna would not only boost signal strength but  would be a
better backup configuration. Hmmm.

On 1/22/2018 10:27 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> IIRC Bill, I think it was your plane that I assisted with some
> crimpers and/or connectors for your RG400 modifications.
> I think if you replaced that Archer com antenna with a second nav
> antenna so that each of your nav units had an antenna without a
> splitter, your problem on the ILS would go away.
> My previous plane had two navs, one with remote GS and the other with
> built-in GS, all running off one cat whisker antenna, with two
> splitters to get signal to all units.
> On some approaches one of the ILSs would be weak and flakey (technical
> term).  I have to Archer Nav antennas, one each to individual nav coms
> with GS. So far I haven't seen any problems.
> Kelly
> Sent from my IBM-360 main frame
>
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
> <mailto:Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>> wrote:
>
>
> <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com <mailto:Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>>
>
> Okay, this is a very valuable thread that is helping me figure out
> a few things that I should have figured out sometime ago.  I'll
> share my experiences in the hope it helps others and I'll ask some
> questions looking for more insight.
>
> First, my GPS setup is 100% by the book and works flawlessly.
>
> I originally installed 2 Archers - a Nav and a Comm.  The Archer
> Nav is my sole Nav antenna but I had a whip or whisker for my
> other Comm.  I long ago got rid of the Archer Comm but I'll come
> back to that.  I've made a good number of ILS approaches to
> various airports in IMC.  I fly into a good number of larger
> airports and the ILS is assigned by default.  Generally no problem
> but I've consistently had problems with the KAGC's ILS for 28.
>
> I've been flying into KAGC a lot over the last few years and I
> often get vectors for the ILS to 28.  I noticed that my AP
> generally missed the left turn for the intercept and the GS was
> jumpy.   I would just have to disconnect it to hand fly it.  I
> gave up on the AP and still found it difficult to get the
> intercept precisely  so I just got in the habit of requesting the
> RNAV and have  no problems.  Recently I decided to try a few in
> VMC and found that the needles were simply unuseable**.  I did a
> few more tests at other airports and had no problems with needles
> - steady as a rock.  But not at KAGC 28.  I've wanted to blame the
> ILS but based on this thread, I'm convinced it's the Archer (my
> Archer is split to feed two NAVs).  At this point after 6 years,
> I'm planning to put some whiskers on.  It's not that I fly a lot
> of IMC or a lot of hard and low  IMC, it's just that I file every
> flight, I work to stay current, most of it is east of the
> Mississippi and sometimes, not always predictably, I do an
> approach to minimums.  It all has to work.
>
> I don't really understand exactly what static wicks do, when they
> are most needed and why I might consider them.  Based on this
> thread, I think I encountered a single situation where I needed
> them.  I'd appreciate your comments and any pointers to more
> information.  What happened was this: About 5 years ago I flew
> from NC to Phoenix.  Coming into Phoenix from Santa Fe I was up
> over 10K and was slam dunked into Phoenix's airspace.  As I
> started a high speed descent I ran through some snow virga (!!)
> and simultaneously lost the Nav radio I was using.  I swear there
> was lightening in my peripheral vision.   I slowed down, changed
> radios, declared 'unable', got some vectors, and finally put it
> down in sunny Scottsdale.
>
> The radio had been using a whisker antenna but was now dead.  Got
> some help from someone here on the list (it's been awhile but
> thanks again) to try and trouble shoot it since I didn't want to
> fly across the country with a single Comm.  It stayed dead but
> during the course of flying around Phoenix I discovered that the
> Archer Comm antenna just wasn't performing well enough to be my
> sole antenna for such a cross country trip.  So I spent some time
> swapping antenna's on my working radio to get home.
>
> Was this possibly caused by some kind of static discharge? Is that
> what might have killed my radio?  Is that what static wicks are
> designed to prevent?
>
> Anyway, I continued to fly with the Archer Comm and actually used
> it as my 'primary' radio.  It worked fine most of the time.  But
> occasionally I'd have a comm problem and would have to switch to
> get maximum range.  Conversely my belly mounted whisker would have
> problems  when on the ground and I'd use the Archer.  Finally I
> removed the Archer and mounted a 2nd belly whisker.  Now when I
> have problems on the ground (KCLT ground at Wilson Air for
> example) I switch to the other radio on the other whisker and I'm
> able to communicate.  It's clear to me now that the whiskers far
> outperform the Archer Comm, but that's pretty well understood by
> Archer users.   It's a sleek backup solution on the Comm side.
>
> At this point I'm starting to shop for some Nav whiskers and the
> easiest way to add them to my 7 yo plane.  I'm thinking that I
> will not be installing static wicks but think I need to recognize
> that as a limitation though I'm not sure how to mitigate the risks
> in that area.  I need to learn more there.
>
> Bill "haven't scared myself in the '10 yet and would like to keep
> it that way" Watson
>
> ** so how can a successful ILS be completed in the soup with
> unuseable needles?  Jumpy needles overlaying a synthethic vision
> display with a flight path marker can let you convince yourself
> that you just did an outstanding job handflying thru some nasty
> turbulence, as long as you turn off the flight director.... is
> that too much technology?
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>
> ====================================
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ====================================
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ====================================
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ====================================
> b Site -
>           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ====================================
>
>


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A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD
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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 833
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: VOR/GS/LOC Antenna and Static Wicks Reply with quote

The antenna itself should be resonant at GS frequencies; just that you have a 3/2 wavelength standing wave instead of a 1/2. The issue is with the gamma match feed point. It’s designed so the ratio of voltage to current at that point is 50 ohms, to provide a good match to the coax. But when you have 3/2 wavelengths (remember the voltage and current standing waves are 90 deg out of phase) that same feed point will not be 50 ohms. So there will be some mismatch at the GS frequency, leading to some signal loss.
One thing I notice in this discussion is that most posters don’t mention what nav receiver they’re using. The key parameter is the noise generated in the receiver’s front end (first stage). If that noise was zero a coat hangar would work for an antenna. I wonder if varying reports are partially due to different receivers, some with less noise than others?
Another common thing: people seem to have interpreted the instructions to read, “you must run the nav light wires along the leading edge.” I believe the interpretation should be, “If you must run wires across the antenna, do it like this.” Both Carl F over on vaf and myself simply moved the antenna back a bit, and ran the nav/strobe wires straight across, well in front of the antenna. We’re both happy with the performance.
If you decide to go with a simple GS dipole on the windscreen (common on 1976 Cessnas) remember that the GS will likely drop out anytime you’re on a vector 90 degrees off final - if that’s a concern.


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