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slipping

 
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kirk bellard



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 13
Location: breaux bridge la

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject: slipping Reply with quote

bought 2006 mark 3 and often practiced slips, the steel tubing for vertical stabilizer cracked where it attaches to tail boom, is this common are slips to much torque for these planes,

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Ralph B



Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 364
Location: Mound Minnesota

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: slipping Reply with quote

kirk bellard wrote:
bought 2006 mark 3 and often practiced slips, the steel tubing for vertical stabilizer cracked where it attaches to tail boom, is this common are slips to much torque for these planes,


I performed slips all the time with both my Firestar and Kolbra. I did see a crack where the cage bolts to the tail boom on the Firestar, but I'm not sure it was due to slipping it. Nothing yet on the Kolbra.


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Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours
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Richard Pike



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1519
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: slipping Reply with quote

More likely it cracked because of torque on the tailwheel during turns on rough ground. There is a simple fix: a brace made of 1/2" or 3/4" x 1/8" aluminum flat stock from Lowes to brace the lower end of the tube.

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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Repairing the fiberglass nose bowl. Ugh.)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

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lcottrell



Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1392
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: slipping Reply with quote

If I understand correctly, your question was not about where the cage attached, but the tail post that secures the tail wheel. If this is correct then the cause for the crack is cured by a breakaway tail wheel.Larry
On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 8:22 AM, Ralph B <rstar447(at)gmail.com (rstar447(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ralph B" <rstar447(at)gmail.com (rstar447(at)gmail.com)>


kirk bellard wrote:
> bought 2006 mark 3 and often practiced slips, the steel tubing for vertical stabilizer cracked where it attaches to tail boom, is this common are slips to much torque for these planes,


I performed slips all the time with both my Firestar and Kolbra. I did see a crack  where the cage bolts to the tail boom on the Firestar, but I'm not sure it was due to slipping it. Nothing yet on the Kolbra.

--------
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours




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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:38 am    Post subject: slipping Reply with quote

Doubt slips caused your problem. More like lateral stress experienced
during ground handling.

There is no lateral bracing for the tail post except where it is welded to
the tail boom ring.

My MKIII experienced this problem several times before a friend suggested
some external lateral bracing. Went that route in 2004. No more tail post
problems.

Let me see if I can find a photo of our modification. The attached photo
will give you an idea of what we did. Welded a strut on each side of the
lower tail post and tail boom ring.

Some Kolb owners have used bolts to attach aluminum or 4130 chromoly steel
strap instead of welding.

For some there is a misconception that the tail wires are "tail bracing
wires". I don't think they brace anything. Their main function is to space
the vertical and horizontal stabilizers.

These new struts do a good job of removing lateral slop and strengthening
the tail section.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama

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kirk bellard



Joined: 31 Mar 2016
Posts: 13
Location: breaux bridge la

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: slipping Reply with quote

thanks for all the advise, the bracing looks like a good idea, but i do have the break away tail wheel

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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: slipping Reply with quote

IMHO the tail wires on a Kolb are referred to correctly as bracing wires. They brace the horizontal and vertical stabilizers against moving from air loads, control surface movement loads, etc. The use of the term "bracing wires", or "wire braced structure" goes way way back through the history of aircraft and then back through ships, then back to bridge trusses. They perform the same p[hysical function as "guy wires" on a tower or flagpole mast, but for some reason "guy wires" never seems to have been used in aviation.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 1/26/18, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: slipping
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, January 26, 2018, 7:37 AM

Doubt slips caused your problem.  More
like lateral stress experienced
during ground handling.

There is no lateral bracing for the
tail post except where it is welded to
the tail boom ring.

My MKIII experienced this problem
several times before a friend suggested
some external lateral bracing. 
Went that route in 2004.  No more tail post
problems. 

Let me see if I can find a photo of our
modification.  The attached photo
will give you an idea of what we
did.  Welded a strut on each side of the
lower tail post and tail boom ring.

Some Kolb owners have used bolts to
attach aluminum or 4130 chromoly steel
strap instead of welding.

For some there is a misconception that
the tail wires are "tail bracing
wires".  I don't think they brace
anything.  Their main function is to space
the vertical and horizontal
stabilizers.

These new struts do a good job of
removing lateral slop and strengthening
the tail section.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama



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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: slipping Reply with quote

I'd have to agree with Bill on this one. I don't think you'd want to fly
a Kolb with anything weaker than the recommended wire rope in those
places. The tubing and cables combine to form a cable braced truss to
form the tail, just as the old 'king post' style ultralites used to
support the wing. You just get a 'twofer' in the tail, bracing the
vertical to side loads with the same wires that brace the horizontal
against vertical loads.

Charlie

On 1/26/2018 5:14 PM, Bill Berle wrote:
Quote:


IMHO the tail wires on a Kolb are referred to correctly as bracing wires. They brace the horizontal and vertical stabilizers against moving from air loads, control surface movement loads, etc. The use of the term "bracing wires", or "wire braced structure" goes way way back through the history of aircraft and then back through ships, then back to bridge trusses. They perform the same p[hysical function as "guy wires" on a tower or flagpole mast, but for some reason "guy wires" never seems to have been used in aviation.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 1/26/18, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: slipping
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, January 26, 2018, 7:37 AM

Doubt slips caused your problem.  More
like lateral stress experienced
during ground handling.

There is no lateral bracing for the
tail post except where it is welded to
the tail boom ring.

My MKIII experienced this problem
several times before a friend suggested
some external lateral bracing.
Went that route in 2004.  No more tail post
problems.

Let me see if I can find a photo of our
modification.  The attached photo
will give you an idea of what we
did.  Welded a strut on each side of the
lower tail post and tail boom ring.

Some Kolb owners have used bolts to
attach aluminum or 4130 chromoly steel
strap instead of welding.

For some there is a misconception that
the tail wires are "tail bracing
wires".  I don't think they brace
anything.  Their main function is to space
the vertical and horizontal
stabilizers.

These new struts do a good job of
removing lateral slop and strengthening
the tail section.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama



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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: slipping Reply with quote

My point was the wire bracing does nothing to brace the tail post from lateral loads. That's what we were talking about, a broken tail post. However, many Kolb owners feel the tail wires are actually bracing the tail post.

A friend came up with the idea to brace the tail post after I experienced 3 or 4 tail post failures. The bracing worked.

Tail wires on a Kolb keep the horizontal and vertical stabilizers equally spaced. That is their job. They don't brace the tail post.

Spacing, bracing, you get the idea.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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