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TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops?

 
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graeme bird



Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

Hi after seeing it mentioned again in the UK LAA mag intro and there being an updated process for MOGAS E5 approval I have started to go through the check list;
Flying from a strip I had been running on mogas since day one with no signs of any issues.
Has anyone sent in the checklist yet? Any issues?


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Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

Graeme,

Yes I also did it a couple of years ago on 3 separate aircraft and it was no
issue. In fact we only had to get an inspector to sign the paperwork off and
then attach the paperwork to the logbooks. There was no requirement to
contact the LAA.

Dave Watts
G-BXDY Classic Mono

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Hitchflight



Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 92
Location: Derbyshire, England

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

Hi Graeme

Straightforward process. Retain inspection sheet. Get book signed by inspector.

I would add I’m very anal on this subject. Have you got an ethanol tester?

I did tests in my local area with a wide range of results. Always test yourself. In the UK there is no legal requirement to show the % of ethanol in the fuel. I’m fortunate that my nearest place is E0. And I routinely reprove it. For technically fuel station can change the configuration.

My prefered station isn’t Esso. But Esso comments are useful.

Esso “The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to five percent ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).
97: There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol). Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.”


My local place sells E0. Long may it continue! E0 has less propensity for vapour lock and less likely to attract acetobacter interest.

Regards

Bob


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graeme bird



Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

what kind of ethanol tester do you use, sounds a good idea. I do use the esso supreme

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Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
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Hitchflight



Joined: 22 Feb 2018
Posts: 92
Location: Derbyshire, England

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

I use a Briggs & Stratton gasohol tester.

Sadly not stocked by any of the big people in the UK.

But you will find them for sale at good quality Lawn Mower Repair places.
They last forever and cost between £1 and £2.


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graeme bird



Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

Do all you guys have normal standard fuel filters? Are they .1 mm ? Can't find a spec. And what about carb heating - water based? Added complexity and risk of leaks in my view?
Carbs should be warmed from air flow out of the side top cowl vents and from sitting over the exhaust pipes ( mine have shielded bowls).


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Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

Graeme

I'm personally involved with 3 other Europas besides my own and between us we use the standard Pro Fuel filters or gascolators.
As for carb heating, we all use the Skydrive carb heat kit which uses the water system.

Dave Watts
G-BXDY Classic Mono

Quote:
On 6 Mar 2018, at 4:05 pm, graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:



Do all you guys have normal standard fuel filters? Are they .1 mm ? Can't find a spec. And what about carb heating - water based? Added complexity and risk of leaks in my view?
Carbs should be warmed from air flow out of the side top cowl vents and from sitting over the exhaust pipes ( mine have shielded bowls).

--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus, SmartA3
325 hours &amp; 6 years on the Mono, 930 total
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk




Read this topic online here:

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brian.davies44(at)gmail.c
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

Hi Graham,

I fitted the water based carb heating 10 years ago. Yes, a bit more
pipework but fit and forget otherwise. Remember, carb heating by warm air
into intake = loss of power so heating the body of carb is a better way to
go.

Regards

Brian

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ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

Graeme,
I use Pro Fuel filters under pilot and passenger seats, feeding to a 3 way Fuel cock, (Main-Res-OFF) then feeding to an Andair gascolator, electric fuel pump to the engine driven mechanical pump and finally engine.
Cheers,
Tim

Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

Mob +64 210640221
Quote:
On 7/03/2018, at 5:22 AM, David Watts <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net> wrote:



Graeme

I'm personally involved with 3 other Europas besides my own and between us we use the standard Pro Fuel filters or gascolators.
As for carb heating, we all use the Skydrive carb heat kit which uses the water system.

Dave Watts
G-BXDY Classic Mono

> On 6 Mar 2018, at 4:05 pm, graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> Do all you guys have normal standard fuel filters? Are they .1 mm ? Can't find a spec. And what about carb heating - water based? Added complexity and risk of leaks in my view?
> Carbs should be warmed from air flow out of the side top cowl vents and from sitting over the exhaust pipes ( mine have shielded bowls).
>
> --------
> Graeme Bird
> G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus, SmartA3
> 325 hours &amp; 6 years on the Mono, 930 total
> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478420#478420
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







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ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

Graeme,
Also have the Skydrive Water jacket around the Carb intake for icing, brilliant.
Tim

Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

Mob +64 210640221
Quote:
On 7/03/2018, at 7:02 AM, Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



Graeme,
I use Pro Fuel filters under pilot and passenger seats, feeding to a 3 way Fuel cock, (Main-Res-OFF) then feeding to an Andair gascolator, electric fuel pump to the engine driven mechanical pump and finally engine.
Cheers,
Tim

Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8052
New Zealand

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

Mob +64 210640221


> On 7/03/2018, at 5:22 AM, David Watts <dg.watts(at)talktalk.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Graeme
>
> I'm personally involved with 3 other Europas besides my own and between us we use the standard Pro Fuel filters or gascolators.
> As for carb heating, we all use the Skydrive carb heat kit which uses the water system.
>
> Dave Watts
> G-BXDY Classic Mono
>
>> On 6 Mar 2018, at 4:05 pm, graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Do all you guys have normal standard fuel filters? Are they .1 mm ? Can't find a spec. And what about carb heating - water based? Added complexity and risk of leaks in my view?
>> Carbs should be warmed from air flow out of the side top cowl vents and from sitting over the exhaust pipes ( mine have shielded bowls).
>>
>> --------
>> Graeme Bird
>> G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus, SmartA3
>> 325 hours &amp; 6 years on the Mono, 930 total
>> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478420#478420
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>







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graeme bird



Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

Umm, I have been flying on mogas for 6 years/330hrs with the ULS from a grass strip often damp/wet all year round in UK weather without so much as a hint of carb icing; similarly with a C42 for 350 hours again with a ULS.

Even if skydrive had the carb heat kits in stock, I am a bit loath to put 10 more connections and three more pipes and two more items in the water system with an increased risk of issues and loss of coolant with no problem to solve.

On the C150s I trained on and Rallye's, the carb was gulping in air (and it needed a lot) hanging down under the engine and in the prop wash but the 912 ULS in the Rotax/Europa configuration the carbs sit behind and in line with the engine under the warm cowl and over the rear cyclinder exhaust pipes. Rear vents at the side of the top of the Europa cowl mean there will be an airflow over the engine and up from the exhaust box past the carbs and out. A pretty good design really. Cold air comes into the carbs via the plenum and NACA inlet so its well behaved.
There is no conductive heating from engine to carb due to the rubber mount but also the inlet and plenum are GRP/rubber so there is no condensation there (unlike the Cessna with its metal ducting) so it depends whether the carbs are cooled more by the air into the engine than the warm air in the cowl from the oil and water systems, detonation and exhaust. The surface area of the carb exposed to convected heat is also much more that exposed to cold air. It's rare that the air is less than -5 C when I fly and it has to be +80 under the cowl, even with the venturi effect of the carb inlet i'd wager the odds are stacked significantly against ice formation. Most wetness in the air will be stopped by the filter an plenum.
I shall stick some thermocouples on them and in the cowl and see what kind of temperatures we get.


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Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
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JonathanMilbank



Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 383
Location: Aberdeen area

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: TL2.26 use of mogas - anyone been through the LAA hoops? Reply with quote

About 3 years ago, while my 912 ULS was still enclosed in the original Classic cowl and therefore much hotter on average than the same engine in an XS cowl, it got carb ice on the ground just before opening the throttle for take off. The engine had been running at around 2500 rpm for at least 20 minutes on a cool damp day, waiting at the holding point for a gap in traffic to allow access the runway.

Hitherto I had fondly imagined that carb ice was impossible, due to proximity of exhausts etc. Luckily the aircraft hadn't lined up for take off slightly earlier, or it might have quit during the take off run and/or the climb out. Very shortly after quitting, the ice melted and it was then possible to restart without further trouble. Witnesses were very confident that the cause was carb ice in that particular atmosphere and all investigations could reveal no other possible cause.

Needless to say, I promptly ordered the Skydrive hot water kit, which is quite easy to fit and seems highly unlikely to increase the risk of coolant leakage. Since then there's been no further hint of carb ice, even though I subsequently fitted Nev Eyre's excellent cowl which allows my engine to run much cooler than hitherto.


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