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Private Pilot Training

 
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cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:29 am    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

I’ve searched the archives but came up short although I suspect there are a range of opinions so would like to ask the question about using my RV-10 to teach my wife to fly. First I recognize the marital dynamics that can be an issue and thankfully we are in a place where that, for now, is just not an issue.
So my main concern is using the -10 for initial training. My plan was to get access to a 172 for the training but that is proving more difficult than expected. Then I thought about building another RV-7(A) for the mission and have some potential partners to ease the financial burden. I saw an ad for a nice project with a 200hp IO-360 and C/S prop which is more than desired but a very good deal. Then it occurred to me, what is really the difference between that and my -10 from a training perspective? In fact, the -10 is less responsive so that might be a benefit. It would definitely take her more time to be ready to solo and prepared for her checkride, but given that any other thoughts on not using the RV-10 for initial training? There do appear to be some insurance issues which I am starting to look into.

Thanks for any and all thoughts,
Marcus


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 5:50 am    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

I was going to do the same thing a few years ago. My insurance company said the problem would be student pilot solo flight. Insurance was going to be very, very expensive and would likely come with high deductibles. I don’t remember what the costs were going to be, but it was enough to make me back off at the time. However, Tim Olson recently got his daughter her PPL in their new RV-14, so he would have the most recent experience with the insurance issue.

David Maib
Quote:
On May 2, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



I’ve searched the archives but came up short although I suspect there are a range of opinions so would like to ask the question about using my RV-10 to teach my wife to fly. First I recognize the marital dynamics that can be an issue and thankfully we are in a place where that, for now, is just not an issue.
So my main concern is using the -10 for initial training. My plan was to get access to a 172 for the training but that is proving more difficult than expected. Then I thought about building another RV-7(A) for the mission and have some potential partners to ease the financial burden. I saw an ad for a nice project with a 200hp IO-360 and C/S prop which is more than desired but a very good deal. Then it occurred to me, what is really the difference between that and my -10 from a training perspective? In fact, the -10 is less responsive so that might be a benefit. It would definitely take her more time to be ready to solo and prepared for her checkride, but given that any other thoughts on not using the RV-10 for initial training? There do appear to be some insurance issues which I am starting to look into.

Thanks for any and all thoughts,
Marcus






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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2763

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:00 am    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

Hi Marcus,

*warning, very long (and boring if the topic doesn't excite you*

As you may already know, I have a perspective on that now after
almost being done going thru the same things.

I had the RV-10 and wanted to teach my Daughter to fly.
In exploring other airplanes to have her learn in,
I considered building first an RV-12, but that would make
me end up with an airplane that absolutely was NOT what I
wanted as a second plane, as I wanted 2 that could easily
cruise together at similar speeds. Then I considered a
7A, but I'm SO glad that I didn't go that route. The 7A
is FAR less comfortable than other options, and it's going
to be much more of a handful to learn in than your -10.
Also, the gear and the nose gear in particular is NOWHERE
near as strong as what you'd find on the -10 or especially
the lighter -14.
I was very lucky that Van's came along with the -14 when
they did. It really is probably the perfect *performance*
trainer out there, as the main gear is SUPER heavy duty, and
so is the nose gear. The -12 is probably the best general
trainer Van's would have.

The next issue I had was that if a CFI were to teach her in
either the -14 or the -10, they would need 25 hours in
type to be listed as a named pilot. That costs more money
that would be a waste. So...I wasn't a CFI at the time but
thanks to some encouragement on this very list
(Thanks Bob!), I decided to get my CFI.

Now I was all set from an airplane and CFI perspective.
Like you, normally I would say it would be hard to teach
family, and especially a spouse, but it actually worked
out real smoothly for the most part with my Daughter.

When we first started, before I was a CFI, I started
teaching her the basics of landings in the RV-10.
No, I wasn't insured for her to be flying it at that
time, but I wanted to give her the basics of landings
and then take her to another instructor to get her
the real deal. She did do 4 hours in a C-150, with
another instructor, which was probably valuable in
itself. It may be nice to do something similar as it
gives her the confidence that someone else is going to
teach her the same things. But, I wouldn't say it's
a necessary step.

Then at this point I still wasn't a CFI, but we kept
building the -14 and flying the -10. I ended up giving
her about 25 additional hours of non-loggable instruction
in the RV-10 before I was a CFI, and she was flying
fine, to the point that I was not having to do anything
with landings or anything else.

I will say that you are probably very correct that it
will take a little longer to both solo and complete
the training in the RV-10, and it is a bit like drinking
from a fire hose when you are doing pattern work. Whereas
the 172 is very slow and everything takes it's time to
happen, the RV-10 as you know, is not. What happened
to us is that she'd hit the throttle and we'd be
off the ground, and before her brain could wrap around
what was all happening, we were passing thru 500' and
turning left for the pattern. Often times she
wasn't mentally ready to even turn until 750-1000'
because it happened so fast, and then by the time
the short crosswind leg was over, we'd hit downwind and
could be a few hundred feet higher than wanted. It just
really took time for her to mentally keep up with all
the nuances of what you have to do, when the plane could
do them faster than she could think. It's this in
particular that I think makes maybe 5 hours of 172 time
a good idea, before flying the RV-10. At least they
can slowly get the processes figured out.

On the other hand though, if you drink from a fire hose
without getting your lips torn off, you can still get
hydrated and she did absorb the material...just took a
little longer to get comfortable with it.
And, I think once she learned all the skills, the
RV-10 is really the better plane to fly, even for
training. One of the primary reasons for his is the
discussion my wife and I had. We both didn't really
want her flying some 1950-something old plane, with it's
old airframe, old instruments, and old everything, that
wouldn't be as reliable as something new. There's no
reason NOT to have a nice engine monitor to give you
good information. There's no reason not to have a great
radio. And, here's a big one...there's a LOT of
added safety when your climb rate is 1500-2200fpm, to get
you away from the ground a.s.a.p. where you DO have
a chance for a glide back to the airport if something
goes wrong. That and the fact that go-arounds in the
RV-10 are a non-issue from a power perspective.
Also, I know from experience that crosswind components
of maybe 25kts aren't impossible in the RV-10,
and it does crosswinds better than the 172 for the
most part.

So ultimately, while I would recommend every private
pilot be burdened with the fast pace of the RV-10, I do
KNOW now that it's actually something that is doable.
I would not really think it necessary to build an RV-14,
but I think if you really WANT to build another RV,
definitely choose the -14, as it will be far more
durable and comfortable. But, unless you want the
resulting airplane permanently, it's probably a waste
of money.

My daughter now has over 100 logged hours, split between
the RV-10 and RV-14, and probably 30-35 non-logged hours,
and she flies darn near as well as most of the RV people
I know. Her checkride is coming up soon when she
turns 17, and other than some brush-up on some maneuvers
I absolutely know she's ready. A couple nights ago
I took her out because it was a windy day and all of us
in the family are doing lots of crosswind landings in prep
for a trip to the islands where there aren't multiple runways.
On the way to the airport I called the AWOS phone number
and it reported winds as 190(at)23G32, and we have runways
18/36 and 9/27. I cringed and gave up on crosswinds and
figured she'd have her hands full doing straight in's.
(Which was true, with all the turbulence) As we flew
though I told her: "Plan to FLY DOWN THE RUNWAY ONLY,
at 2-3', on Runway 27, and just hold it off but keep
your crosswind corrections in. If and only if, you can
get everything just perfect, you can land it." It blew
me away because she flew just fine and did a couple great
landings. I checked the AWOS after touchdown and
it was reporting 180(at)19G28. I don't think we must have
hit the 28kt gusts. Smile At any rate, she did beautifully,
and so did the plane. So, I'm here to tell you that it
is absolutely possible and fun to learn in the -10.

Now for the insurance part. When it comes to insurance,
one of the reasons I build the RV-14 was because I assumed
that I would be unable to get insurance for the -10 for her
as a student. In the end, it was a waste of money building
the RV-14 (but a waste I'm glad I did), because I was able to
insure her right away. I put her on the RV-14 first and I
think it jacked me almost $1200. Then I went to put her
on the last 6 months of the year on the RV-10 and they
added her there for $250 (covering 6 months). That was
thru Hallmark, quoted through AJG (NationAir). I did
get a little shocker at renewal time as my normally
$1700 premium is now $2925, but she's a named insured, and
still a student, and that's an annual fee.
So, while you would think building an RV or buying an
RV would be a cost saver due to insurance, I think that
you just have to get over the fact that insurance may be
available but just at a lot higher cost. Still cheaper
than buying and insuring a second plane. There was only
one underwriter willing to cover us, so your options may
be limited, but you can always explore the costs.
If insurance is impossible to obtain, I guess I'd say that
I'd still stay away from the RV-7A idea and find other
options. There is a place here in my state where you
can even lease an airplane for a length of time. About
8-10 years ago I think, I leased a cherokee 140 for 32/hr
dry with the only stipulations being 1) need to hangar the
plane and 2) need to pay for a minimum of 10 hours per
month. But, learning in that plane was not as fun as
the RV.

So, explore the real insurance cost and see what you
find. Talk to Jenny at AJG and see what she says.
If you can get the insurance at any price, I'd say
go for it in the -10. And, if you build a plane,
go for the -14. It at least builds fairly fast, and
is comfortable.

Tim

On 05/02/2018 07:27 AM, Marcus Cooper wrote:
Quote:


I’ve searched the archives but came up short although I suspect there are a range of opinions so would like to ask the question about using my RV-10 to teach my wife to fly. First I recognize the marital dynamics that can be an issue and thankfully we are in a place where that, for now, is just not an issue.
So my main concern is using the -10 for initial training. My plan was to get access to a 172 for the training but that is proving more difficult than expected. Then I thought about building another RV-7(A) for the mission and have some potential partners to ease the financial burden. I saw an ad for a nice project with a 200hp IO-360 and C/S prop which is more than desired but a very good deal. Then it occurred to me, what is really the difference between that and my -10 from a training perspective? In fact, the -10 is less responsive so that might be a benefit. It would definitely take her more time to be ready to solo and prepared for her checkride, but given that any other thoughts on not using the RV-10 for initial training? There do appear to be some insurance issues which I am starting to look into.

Thanks for any and all thoughts,
Marcus



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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1124
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

I would think from an insurance perspective, getting training in either a Cherokee or C172 would be easiest. Or even purchasing a C150/152 or PA-28-140

with the intent to resell as soon as training is done would be easier.  The adding of HP rating shouldn't be but a few hours in C182.

As much as one would like to learn in what will ultimately fly, the solo parts are tough. Anotherf minor complication, depending on how aircraft is registered, AFAIK for an instructor to teach for hire in an experimental (for other than transition waiver) the student must have an ownership interest in the aircraft.
A flying club may be the least expensive way to go for the license.

But my guesses aren't from recent experience, being grandfathered for complex, HP, and tailwheel.

Kelly

Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 6:49 AM, David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com (dmaib(at)mac.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com (dmaib(at)mac.com)>

I was going to do the same thing a few years ago. My insurance company said the problem would be student pilot solo flight. Insurance was going to be very, very expensive and would likely come with high deductibles. I don’t remember what the costs were going to be, but it was enough to make me back off at the time. However, Tim Olson recently got his daughter her PPL in their new RV-14, so he would have the most recent experience with the insurance issue.

David Maib


> On May 2, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com (cooprv7(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com (cooprv7(at)yahoo.com)>
>
> I’ve searched the archives but came up short although I suspect there are a range of opinions so would like to ask the question about using my RV-10 to teach my wife to fly. First I recognize the marital dynamics that can be an issue and thankfully we are in a place where that, for now, is just not an issue.
> So my main concern is using the -10 for initial training. My plan was to get access to a 172 for the training but that is proving more difficult than expected. Then I thought about building another RV-7(A) for the mission and have some potential partners to ease the financial burden. I saw an ad for a nice project with a 200hp IO-360 and C/S prop which is more than desired but a very good deal. Then it occurred to me, what is really the difference between that and my -10 from a training perspective?  In fact, the -10 is less responsive so that might be a benefit. It would definitely take her more time to be ready to solo and prepared for her checkride, but given that any other thoughts on not using the RV-10 for initial training?  There do appear to be some insurance issues which I am starting to look into.
>
> Thanks for any and all thoughts,
> Marcus
>
>
>
>

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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2763

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:14 am    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

Hi David,

I just hit send on a long, long email, that you can read, but here's a
quick comment.

1) She hasn't finished the PPL yet, but, she will soon! Smile

2) The insurance gets more expensive but I wouldn't call it extreme.
That may be due to covering 2 planes with the same company. Each
plane in itself is what I'd say is reasonable considering the
situation...and she's insured on both planes.

3) There was no additional deductible. It was basically my same
policy(s), with her as named insured, and then send a check.
The additional fee for both planes was probably around $2500
total, or maybe $3000. Insuring up for the LODA for transition
training is about the same, actually.

So it wasn't too bad.
Regarding transition training, I've basically decided to just
give up the idea as some others did. I may still get a LODA
for the -10 like I did the -14, but I will probably never use it.
For all of 2017/2018's insurance period on the RV-14, there
is only one taker, and their insurance requirement is only 1 hour.
They want to fly for maybe 2 hours. With only 2 hours that
I'd bill, I'd lose so much money on offering the training with
insurance that I'm not willing to do it anymore. That and the
fact that even the nice people like to try to create scheduling
headaches for you and don't want to show up with a current BFR
or want you to come to them instead...and I'm not really
interested in offering transition training to someone who's not
willing to come to me as a CURRENT and non-rusty pilot.
Too much risk to the airplane. I'm shocked that pilots will
skip flying for years, then think they want 1-2 hours in
an RV before they do a first flight in theirs. I'm not willing
to use MY plane for that, and not particularly interested in
jumping in some other plane with that pilot either.

I now see why so many people offer it at first but then
decide not to do it anymore.

Tim

On 05/02/2018 08:49 AM, David Maib wrote:
Quote:


I was going to do the same thing a few years ago. My insurance company said the problem would be student pilot solo flight. Insurance was going to be very, very expensive and would likely come with high deductibles. I don’t remember what the costs were going to be, but it was enough to make me back off at the time. However, Tim Olson recently got his daughter her PPL in their new RV-14, so he would have the most recent experience with the insurance issue.

David Maib


> On May 2, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Marcus Cooper <cooprv7(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I’ve searched the archives but came up short although I suspect there are a range of opinions so would like to ask the question about using my RV-10 to teach my wife to fly. First I recognize the marital dynamics that can be an issue and thankfully we are in a place where that, for now, is just not an issue.
> So my main concern is using the -10 for initial training. My plan was to get access to a 172 for the training but that is proving more difficult than expected. Then I thought about building another RV-7(A) for the mission and have some potential partners to ease the financial burden. I saw an ad for a nice project with a 200hp IO-360 and C/S prop which is more than desired but a very good deal. Then it occurred to me, what is really the difference between that and my -10 from a training perspective? In fact, the -10 is less responsive so that might be a benefit. It would definitely take her more time to be ready to solo and prepared for her checkride, but given that any other thoughts on not using the RV-10 for initial training? There do appear to be some insurance issues which I am starting to look into.
>
> Thanks for any and all thoughts,
> Marcus


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cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

Tim,

Thanks so much for your response, to be honest I was hoping you would weigh in as I knew you had a similar situation. You touched on all of my concerns and impressions and while I had anticipated a different response you make some excellent points that I have been realizing myself. The cost of even partnering in a 172 will be the initial buy-in, probably $9,000 on the only options I’ve found so far, plus another $1500/year overhead. Not bad, but that would buy a lot of insurance and fuel for the RV-10. I also honed in on your point about it being a better, and safer airplane once the results of the fire-house have dissipated.

Great quote I will use by the way, in the multitude of training programs I have done I’m well versed in the ‘fire house’ effect but had not yet heard it put so well as, “if you drink from a fire hose without getting your lips torn off, you can still get hydrated” Wink

I will check out the insurance options, and thanks Jenny for chiming in. My plan for now will be to go do some flying and see if I can dumb down the G3X a bit to make it more simple to interpret and let her have a go at the learning curve to see how she does. I’d hate to be overly pessimistic and go down a far more expense path for nothing.

Thanks to all for the thoughts, this group has been a great lifeline for the 12 years we had the -10. Just another reason I love this airplane so much.

Marcus

On May 2, 2018, at 9:58 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com> wrote:



Hi Marcus,

*warning, very long (and boring if the topic doesn't excite you*

As you may already know, I have a perspective on that now after
almost being done going thru the same things.

I had the RV-10 and wanted to teach my Daughter to fly.
In exploring other airplanes to have her learn in,
I considered building first an RV-12, but that would make
me end up with an airplane that absolutely was NOT what I
wanted as a second plane, as I wanted 2 that could easily
cruise together at similar speeds. Then I considered a
7A, but I'm SO glad that I didn't go that route. The 7A
is FAR less comfortable than other options, and it's going
to be much more of a handful to learn in than your -10.
Also, the gear and the nose gear in particular is NOWHERE
near as strong as what you'd find on the -10 or especially
the lighter -14.
I was very lucky that Van's came along with the -14 when
they did. It really is probably the perfect *performance*
trainer out there, as the main gear is SUPER heavy duty, and
so is the nose gear. The -12 is probably the best general
trainer Van's would have.

The next issue I had was that if a CFI were to teach her in
either the -14 or the -10, they would need 25 hours in
type to be listed as a named pilot. That costs more money
that would be a waste. So...I wasn't a CFI at the time but
thanks to some encouragement on this very list
(Thanks Bob!), I decided to get my CFI.

Now I was all set from an airplane and CFI perspective.
Like you, normally I would say it would be hard to teach
family, and especially a spouse, but it actually worked
out real smoothly for the most part with my Daughter.

When we first started, before I was a CFI, I started
teaching her the basics of landings in the RV-10.
No, I wasn't insured for her to be flying it at that
time, but I wanted to give her the basics of landings
and then take her to another instructor to get her
the real deal. She did do 4 hours in a C-150, with
another instructor, which was probably valuable in
itself. It may be nice to do something similar as it
gives her the confidence that someone else is going to
teach her the same things. But, I wouldn't say it's
a necessary step.

Then at this point I still wasn't a CFI, but we kept
building the -14 and flying the -10. I ended up giving
her about 25 additional hours of non-loggable instruction
in the RV-10 before I was a CFI, and she was flying
fine, to the point that I was not having to do anything
with landings or anything else.

I will say that you are probably very correct that it
will take a little longer to both solo and complete
the training in the RV-10, and it is a bit like drinking
from a fire hose when you are doing pattern work. Whereas
the 172 is very slow and everything takes it's time to
happen, the RV-10 as you know, is not. What happened
to us is that she'd hit the throttle and we'd be
off the ground, and before her brain could wrap around
what was all happening, we were passing thru 500' and
turning left for the pattern. Often times she
wasn't mentally ready to even turn until 750-1000'
because it happened so fast, and then by the time
the short crosswind leg was over, we'd hit downwind and
could be a few hundred feet higher than wanted. It just
really took time for her to mentally keep up with all
the nuances of what you have to do, when the plane could
do them faster than she could think. It's this in
particular that I think makes maybe 5 hours of 172 time
a good idea, before flying the RV-10. At least they
can slowly get the processes figured out.

On the other hand though, if you drink from a fire hose
without getting your lips torn off, you can still get
hydrated and she did absorb the material...just took a
little longer to get comfortable with it.
And, I think once she learned all the skills, the
RV-10 is really the better plane to fly, even for
training. One of the primary reasons for his is the
discussion my wife and I had. We both didn't really
want her flying some 1950-something old plane, with it's
old airframe, old instruments, and old everything, that
wouldn't be as reliable as something new. There's no
reason NOT to have a nice engine monitor to give you
good information. There's no reason not to have a great
radio. And, here's a big one...there's a LOT of
added safety when your climb rate is 1500-2200fpm, to get
you away from the ground a.s.a.p. where you DO have
a chance for a glide back to the airport if something
goes wrong. That and the fact that go-arounds in the
RV-10 are a non-issue from a power perspective.
Also, I know from experience that crosswind components
of maybe 25kts aren't impossible in the RV-10,
and it does crosswinds better than the 172 for the
most part.

So ultimately, while I would recommend every private
pilot be burdened with the fast pace of the RV-10, I do
KNOW now that it's actually something that is doable.
I would not really think it necessary to build an RV-14,
but I think if you really WANT to build another RV,
definitely choose the -14, as it will be far more
durable and comfortable. But, unless you want the
resulting airplane permanently, it's probably a waste
of money.

My daughter now has over 100 logged hours, split between
the RV-10 and RV-14, and probably 30-35 non-logged hours,
and she flies darn near as well as most of the RV people
I know. Her checkride is coming up soon when she
turns 17, and other than some brush-up on some maneuvers
I absolutely know she's ready. A couple nights ago
I took her out because it was a windy day and all of us
in the family are doing lots of crosswind landings in prep
for a trip to the islands where there aren't multiple runways.
On the way to the airport I called the AWOS phone number
and it reported winds as 190(at)23G32, and we have runways
18/36 and 9/27. I cringed and gave up on crosswinds and
figured she'd have her hands full doing straight in's.
(Which was true, with all the turbulence) As we flew
though I told her: "Plan to FLY DOWN THE RUNWAY ONLY,
at 2-3', on Runway 27, and just hold it off but keep
your crosswind corrections in. If and only if, you can
get everything just perfect, you can land it." It blew
me away because she flew just fine and did a couple great
landings. I checked the AWOS after touchdown and
it was reporting 180(at)19G28. I don't think we must have
hit the 28kt gusts. Smile At any rate, she did beautifully,
and so did the plane. So, I'm here to tell you that it
is absolutely possible and fun to learn in the -10.

Now for the insurance part. When it comes to insurance,
one of the reasons I build the RV-14 was because I assumed
that I would be unable to get insurance for the -10 for her
as a student. In the end, it was a waste of money building
the RV-14 (but a waste I'm glad I did), because I was able to
insure her right away. I put her on the RV-14 first and I
think it jacked me almost $1200. Then I went to put her
on the last 6 months of the year on the RV-10 and they
added her there for $250 (covering 6 months). That was
thru Hallmark, quoted through AJG (NationAir). I did
get a little shocker at renewal time as my normally
$1700 premium is now $2925, but she's a named insured, and
still a student, and that's an annual fee.
So, while you would think building an RV or buying an
RV would be a cost saver due to insurance, I think that
you just have to get over the fact that insurance may be
available but just at a lot higher cost. Still cheaper
than buying and insuring a second plane. There was only
one underwriter willing to cover us, so your options may
be limited, but you can always explore the costs.
If insurance is impossible to obtain, I guess I'd say that
I'd still stay away from the RV-7A idea and find other
options. There is a place here in my state where you
can even lease an airplane for a length of time. About
8-10 years ago I think, I leased a cherokee 140 for 32/hr
dry with the only stipulations being 1) need to hangar the
plane and 2) need to pay for a minimum of 10 hours per
month. But, learning in that plane was not as fun as
the RV.

So, explore the real insurance cost and see what you
find. Talk to Jenny at AJG and see what she says.
If you can get the insurance at any price, I'd say
go for it in the -10. And, if you build a plane,
go for the -14. It at least builds fairly fast, and
is comfortable.

Tim

On 05/02/2018 07:27 AM, Marcus Cooper wrote:
Quote:

I’ve searched the archives but came up short although I suspect there are a range of opinions so would like to ask the question about using my RV-10 to teach my wife to fly. First I recognize the marital dynamics that can be an issue and thankfully we are in a place where that, for now, is just not an issue.
So my main concern is using the -10 for initial training. My plan was to get access to a 172 for the training but that is proving more difficult than expected. Then I thought about building another RV-7(A) for the mission and have some potential partners to ease the financial burden. I saw an ad for a nice project with a 200hp IO-360 and C/S prop which is more than desired but a very good deal. Then it occurred to me, what is really the difference between that and my -10 from a training perspective? In fact, the -10 is less responsive so that might be a benefit. It would definitely take her more time to be ready to solo and prepared for her checkride, but given that any other thoughts on not using the RV-10 for initial training? There do appear to be some insurance issues which I am starting to look into.
Thanks for any and all thoughts,
Marcus


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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 833
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

Kelly McMullen wrote:
Another minor complication, depending on how aircraft is registered, AFAIK for an instructor to teach for hire in an experimental (for other than transition waiver) the student must have an ownership interest in the aircraft.


The actual rule is that the EAB airplane owner may not be compensated in any way, for the use of his airplane. In this case, I think it's a fair assumption that Tim is not charging his daughter for the airplane.
Unless some over-zealous lawyer wants to argue that being a proud father is "compensation". -Smile


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1548
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

I agree with you. The flip side, is an experimental, whether
individually owner or in a flying club where members own a share
can be used for flight training of any of the owners, because the owners
are not compensated, only the instructor gets paid. That is part of
EAA's current program to assist formation of flying clubs.
Kelly
Pres. Chapt 1445

On 5/2/2018 5:38 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
Quote:



Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Another minor complication, depending on how aircraft is registered, AFAIK for an instructor to teach for hire in an experimental (for other than transition waiver) the student must have an ownership interest in the aircraft.
>


The actual rule is that the EAB airplane owner may not be compensated in any way, for the use of his airplane. In this case, I think it's a fair assumption that Tim is not charging his daughter for the airplane.
Unless some over-zealous lawyer wants to argue that being a proud father is "compensation". -Smile

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479785#479785











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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2763

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:44 am    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

I think as the father it’s pretty much a given that the bulk of the
money flow is from dad to kid....so even if she paid me, I’d still be
many tens of thousands behind on cash by the time she’s old enough to
get her Private. Smile
Truth is , to be able to see her finish I’m happy to pay for the plane,
insurance, fuel, and even some fuel so she remains current after she’s
done. I want her spending her money on College. And no, I do not need
any more adult children so please don’t ask if you can call me daddy too
and get free fuel. Smile.
Tim
Quote:
On May 2, 2018, at 7:38 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:




Kelly McMullen wrote:
> Another minor complication, depending on how aircraft is registered, AFAIK for an instructor to teach for hire in an experimental (for other than transition waiver) the student must have an ownership interest in the aircraft.
>


The actual rule is that the EAB airplane owner may not be compensated in any way, for the use of his airplane. In this case, I think it's a fair assumption that Tim is not charging his daughter for the airplane.
Unless some over-zealous lawyer wants to argue that being a proud father is "compensation". -Smile

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB



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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1124
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

My comments were with regard to an independent CFI charging for his/her services with student in experimental.

If there is no transfer of funds, AFAIK no issue. I know that certain very generous CFIs are literally giving of their

time and aircraft to provide transition training without FAA/insurance involvement. I in fact benefited from

one such very generous individual.

If you don't want to be a sugar daddy, how about "Uncle"?  8^)

Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 8:41 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

I think as the father it’s pretty much a given that the bulk of the money flow is from dad to kid....so even if she paid me, I’d still be many tens of thousands behind on cash by the time she’s old enough to get her Private.  Smile
Truth is , to be able to see her finish I’m happy to pay for the plane, insurance, fuel, and even some fuel so she remains current after she’s done.  I want her spending her money on College.  And no, I do not need any more adult children so please don’t ask if you can call me daddy too and get free fuel. Smile.
Tim


Quote:
On May 2, 2018, at 7:38 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>


Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote:
 Another minor complication, depending on how aircraft is registered, AFAIK for an instructor to teach for hire in an experimental (for other than transition waiver) the student must have an ownership interest in the aircraft.



The actual rule is that the EAB airplane owner may not be compensated in any way, for the use of his airplane. In this case, I think it's a fair assumption that Tim is not charging his daughter for the airplane.
Unless some over-zealous lawyer wants to argue that being a proud father is "compensation". -Smile

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

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Bob Turner



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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

Kelly McMullen wrote:
My comments were with regard to an independent CFI charging for his/her services with student in experimental.
]


There is no prohibition on paying a cfi for instruction in an EAB. The prohibition is on the airplane itself - it cannot be used for compensation. If the cfi furnishes the airplane, part 91 imposes the usual commercial use restrictions, since it is presumed that the airplane is being used to generate compensation for the cfi. But if a good friend lets you use his EAB for free, then you may pay the cfi. In the situation you described, if anything goes wrong, the insurance company is within its rights to deny coverage.


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2763

PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 5:22 am    Post subject: Private Pilot Training Reply with quote

No worries, I knew what you meant.
To me the rules are actually pretty clear, and the few workarounds
that there are, are also cut and dry, such as training for free.

I once said that if I won that big lottery, I'd love to buy about
10 RV-12's, and make a fleet of trainers and offer free flight
instruction to anyone who wanted to learn to fly. I figured if
you could subsidize the cost to get into the activity, there would
be a certain percentage of people who would drop out afterwards
because they couldn't really afford to fly, but that a healthy
percentage would continue on. And, I view the sheer number of
pilots and growing the pilot population to be our most urgent
issue. We need to get people to dream again, to get into the air,
and to see how fun and useful it is. At that point, those who
really have the dream will keep moving ahead, and that will
drive everything from airplane sales to avionics and even
improve todays politics.

I think it could be done, in all RV-12's, if done for no cost
to the trainee.

Then, we also need to foster more and more flying clubs. We have
precisely ZERO in my neck of the woods, and that would greatly
help drive more flying.

Now, if someone would just get me a winning lottery combination,
I'll get right on it.
Tim
On 05/03/2018 09:46 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote:
My comments were with regard to an independent CFI charging for his/her
services with student in experimental.
If there is no transfer of funds, AFAIK no issue. I know that certain
very generous CFIs are literally giving of their
time and aircraft to provide transition training without FAA/insurance
involvement. I in fact benefited from
one such very generous individual.
If you don't want to be a sugar daddy, how about "Uncle"?  8^)



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