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High Thrust Line Question
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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:10 pm    Post subject: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

I agree with you that the HKS is great engine. I considered it when I was shopping for a new engine for my original Firestar. But, after talking to Bryan at Kolb it wasn’t to be. He didn’t think the original Firestars had a strong enough cage assembly ( chromoly steel tubing wall thicknesses)to handle the torque that the HKS produces. I
went along with his opinion.
We used Belleville washers for many years in heavy equipment powershift transmissions as an alternative to the piston return springs inside the hydraulic clutch packs They worked great. They would fail eventually like anything else. But, it took ten of thousands of cycles. Good luck on the idea.

George Helton
1986 Firestar, FS100
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On May 9, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place.

BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding the wings.

The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques.

This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc.

All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom.

The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project Smile

The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox !

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM


Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

Bill, I know that this might sound
crazy but, can’t you just buy a different set of gears for
the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I
can’t imagine that HKS can’t supply replacement parts.
The gearbox case doesn’t care what gears fit inside of it.

If they don’t, I’d sure shy away
from buying one.
George Helton
1986 Firestar, FS100
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill
Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
> I have been pulling out what's
left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to
quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission
well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability.
I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot
afford to change it.
>
> What I have learned thus far is:
>
> 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really
wants to swing a larger propeller than what is
actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line
on the Kolb airframe.
>
> 2) Turning the gearbox upwards
will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a
thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is
advisable.
>
> 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5
blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line
problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.
>
> I have considered many possible
solutions or "work-arounds" :
>
> 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and
remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the
problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and
effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the
"solutions".
>
> 2) Remove the wings after every
flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade
propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to
build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be
removed and installed by myself alone.
>
> 3) Make a folding propeller, like
the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold
rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground
equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller
will be prohibitvely expensive.
>
> 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS.
This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford
it.
>
> 5) Turn the gearbox upwards,
install the right propeller, and live with the possibly
dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.
>
> Any other/better/wiser/workable
ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!
>
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton
<gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Re: High
Thrust Line Question
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39
AM
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: George
> Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
>
> Well Bill, thanks for bringing up
the
> topic. I replaced my little Rotax
377 with new low rpm Hirth
> 2702 over the winter. I really
hadn’t measured the
> distance between the prop hub and
boom tube. You sparked my
> interest so I stopped by my hanger
this morning to check it
> out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox
with 2:29 to 1 ratio.
> which translates to 2400 rpm prop
speed (at) the engine’s
> max. HP rpm of 5500rpm.
> Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches.
This
> is on a Kolb original Firestar. I
did have to move the
> engine forward 2.625” to
compensate for the extra weight
> of the new gear box. I went with a
64” 3 blade Powerfin
> prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch.
This setup gives me 3.5”
> of clearance from the boom tube.
Thanks for inspiring me to
> check it out. I’m sure
there is a good combination
> of prop out there for an HKS.
> George Helton
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton(at)gmail.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM,
Bill
> Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> --> Kolb-List message
posted
> by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> Everybody THANK YOU for
taking
> time for this discussion.
>>
>> I spoke to the Kolb factory
today
> by phone, and went out to the
local UL flying field to see
> an HKS engine run.
>>
>> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were
asked
> one specific question by me:
What is the maximum
> number of inches allowable or
advisable between the center
> of the propeller and the top of
the tailboom?
>>
>> Bryan said that 36 inches is
about
> standard for a "normal" Firestar,
and he would not want to
> fly an airplane with that distance
raised to 39 or 40
> inches.
>>
>> I went back to my hangar and
> measured, and the distance on my
Firestar would be over 40
> or 41 inches if I turned the
gearbox upward. So if the Kolb
> factory owner says 40 inches is
too high, I can only be
> humble and assume that I wouldn't
want to fly it at 40
> inches either. If any of the
highly experienced Kolbers on
> this forum are flying with their
thrust line 40 inches above
> the tailboom, I REALLY would like
to know about it pronto.
>>
>> As big of an ego as I have had
a
> few times in my life, and as much
as I think of myself as a
> reasonably skilled pilot, I
don't need to be a test
> pilot here and try to push any
envelope at this early stage.
> So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a
favor... if any of you are
> flying a Firestar with the engine
thrust line 39 or 40 or 41
> incvhes above the tailboom please
post this on the list and
> let me know ifyou have any issues
with the handling,
> pitch-over, etc.
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com -
> safety & performance upgrade
for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net
> -
winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>>
>>
>
--------------------------------------------
>> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike
> <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Re: High
> Thrust Line Question
>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018,
4:38
> PM
>>
>> --> Kolb-List message
posted
> by: "Richard
>> Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
>>
>> Bill; notice the extent to
which
> Rick
>> raised his engine. (Great
> pictures) Maybe you can leave the
>> gearbox down and raise the
engine
> up?
>>
>> --------
>> Richard Pike
>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>>
>> Forgiving is tough, being
forgiven
> is
>> wonderful, and God's grace
really
> is amazing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
>> Navigator to browse
>> List Un/Subscription,
>> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>> -
MATRONICS
> WEB FORUMS -
>> via the Web Forums!
>> - NEW
MATRONICS LIST
> WIKI -
>> Email List Wiki!
>> - List
Contribution
> Web Site -
>> support!
>>

>
>> -Matt
Dralle, List
> Admin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST
WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution
Web Site -
> support!
>

> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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support!

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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4617
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

A large Belleville washer is used in the slip clutches in the 912 series gear boxes.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

You’re right John. Actually Rotax has used them in their gearboxes for years in smaller version. They stacked them face to face in the anti-clatter mechanisms.
George Helton
1986 Firestar, FS100
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Sent from my iPhone

[quote] On May 9, 2018, at 7:20 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:



A large Belleville washer is used in the slip clutches in the 912 series gear boxes.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama




--


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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

Bill
I can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with A 72 inch
prop with 7” clearance, 1” clearance, a 60” prop turning 3200 rpm and 72”
at 2000 rpm.

With a 72” prop and 7” clearance one person operation was fine but with two
I would run out of up elevator at full power.

The 60” prop turned large amount of power into noise. The three blade 2000
rpm 72” prop gives twice the thrust.

If you can fit a 70-74” prop depending on prop recommendations with close
to 1” clearance by raising the engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance
the same the apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft change.

You might find the big reduction ratio a better overall fit.

Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIII

On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

[quote]

The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So
unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place.

BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions.
After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy
engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with
one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding
the wings.

The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or
Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat
(like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable
tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques


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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:46 am    Post subject: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback.

After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller.

The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc.

Onward !

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM

Bill I
can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with
A 72 inch prop with 7” clearance, 1” clearance, a 60”
prop turning 3200 rpm and 72” at 2000
rpm.
With a 72” prop and 7” clearance one person
operation was fine but with two I would run out of up
elevator at full power.
The 60” prop turned large amount of power into
noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72” prop gives twice the
thrust.
If you can fit a 70-74” prop depending on prop
recommendations with close to 1” clearance by raising the
engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the
apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft
change.
You might find the big reduction ratio a better
overall fit.
Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered
MKIII




On Wed, May 9,
2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>



The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox
case. So  unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and
slide them into place.



BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other
potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced
aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can
make a simple prop extension that is held on with one
central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller
before folding the wings.



The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville
Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel
washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is
tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression
force over a reasonable range of installation torques.



This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut
until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be
confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the
propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench,
elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides
a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of
havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the
bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc.



All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or
6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's
recommended distance from the tailboom.



The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will
never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane
into a major engineering project Smile



The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe
the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine.
If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my
mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you
get the 2.58 gearbox !



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com 
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net    
      - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities



--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
wrote:



 Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM



 

 Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>



 Bill, I know that this might sound

 crazy but, can’t you just buy a different set of gears
for

 the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I

 can’t imagine that HKS can’t supply replacement
parts.

 The gearbox case doesn’t care what gears fit inside of
it.



 If they don’t, I’d sure shy away

 from buying one.

 George Helton

 1986 Firestar, FS100

 14GDH

 Mesick, Michigan

 gdhelton(at)gmail.com



 Sent from my iPhone



 > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill

 Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 wrote:

 >

 > --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 >

 > I have been pulling out what's

 left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want
to

 quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission

 well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved
reliability.

 I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot

 afford to change it.

 >

 > What I have learned thus far is:

 >

 > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really

 wants to swing a larger propeller than what is

 actually  "correct" for the height of the
thrust line

 on the Kolb airframe.

 >

 > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards

 will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a

 thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks
is

 advisable.

 >

 > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5

 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line

 problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.

 >

 > I have considered many possible

 solutions or "work-arounds" :

 >

 > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and

 remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of
the

 problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and

 effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all
the

 "solutions".

 >

 > 2) Remove the wings after every

 flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5
blade

 propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me
to

 build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to
be

 removed and installed by myself alone.

 >

 > 3) Make a folding propeller, like

 the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades
fold

 rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex
ground

 equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a
propeller

 will be prohibitvely expensive.

 >

 > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS.

 This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot
afford

 it.

 >

 > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards,

 install the right propeller, and live with the possibly

 dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.

 >

 > Any other/better/wiser/workable

 ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Bill Berle

 > www.ezflaphandle.com 
-

 safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 > www.grantstar.net   

        - winning proposals for non-profit and

 for-profit entities

 >

 >

 --------------------------------------------

 > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton

 <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

 wrote:

 >

 > Subject: Re: Re: High

 Thrust Line Question

 > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39

 AM

 >

 > --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: George

 > Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

 >

 > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up

 the

 > topic. I replaced my little Rotax

 377 with new low rpm Hirth

 > 2702 over the winter. I really

 hadn’t measured the

 > distance between the prop hub and

 boom tube. You sparked my

 > interest so I stopped by my hanger

 this morning to check it

 > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox

 with 2:29 to 1 ratio.

 > which translates to 2400 rpm prop

 speed (at) the engine’s

 > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm.

 > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches.

 This

 > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I

 did have to move the

 > engine forward 2.625” to

 compensate for the extra weight

 > of the new gear box. I went with a

 64” 3 blade Powerfin

 > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch.

 This setup gives me 3.5”

 > of clearance from the boom tube.

 Thanks for inspiring me to

 > check it out.  I’m sure

 there is a good combination

 > of prop out there for an HKS.

 > George Helton

 > 1986 Firestar, FS100

 > 14GDH

 > Mesick, Michigan

 > gdhelton(at)gmail.com

 >

 > Sent from my iPhone

 >

 >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM,

 Bill

 > Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 > wrote:

 >>

 >> --> Kolb-List message

 posted

 > by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

 >>

 >> Everybody THANK YOU for

 taking

 > time for this discussion.

 >>

 >> I spoke to the Kolb factory

 today

 > by phone, and went out to the

 local UL flying field to see

 > an HKS engine run.

 >>

 >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were

 asked

 > one specific question by me: 

 What is the maximum

 > number of inches allowable or

 advisable between the center

 > of the propeller and the top of

 the tailboom?

 >>

 >> Bryan said that 36 inches is

 about

 > standard for a "normal" Firestar,

 and he would not want to

 > fly an airplane with that distance

 raised to 39 or 40

 > inches.

 >>

 >> I went back to my hangar and

 > measured, and the distance on my

 Firestar would be over 40

 > or 41 inches if I turned the

 gearbox upward. So if the Kolb

 > factory owner says 40 inches is

 too high, I can only be

 > humble and assume that I wouldn't

 want to fly it at 40

 > inches either. If any of the

 highly experienced Kolbers on

 > this forum are flying with their

 thrust line 40 inches above

 > the tailboom, I REALLY would like

 to know about it pronto.

 >>

 >> As big of an ego as I have had

 a

 > few times in my life, and as much

 as I think of myself as a

 > reasonably  skilled pilot, I

 don't need to be a test

 > pilot here and try to push any

 envelope at this early stage.

 > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a

 favor... if any of you are

 > flying a Firestar with the engine

 thrust line 39 or 40 or 41

 > incvhes above the tailboom please

 post this on the list and

 > let me know ifyou have any issues

 with the handling,

 > pitch-over, etc.

 >>

 >> Bill Berle

 >> www.ezflaphandle.com 
-

 > safety & performance upgrade

 for light aircraft

 >> www.grantstar.net  

 >        -

 winning proposals for non-profit and

 > for-profit entities

 >>

 >>

 >

 --------------------------------------------

 >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike

 > <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 > wrote:

 >>

 >> Subject: Re: High

 > Thrust Line Question

 >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018,

 4:38

 > PM

 >>

 >> --> Kolb-List message

 posted

 > by: "Richard

 >> Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

 >>

 >> Bill; notice the extent to

 which

 > Rick

 >> raised his engine. (Great

 > pictures) Maybe you can leave the

 >> gearbox down and raise the

 engine

 > up?

 >>

 >> --------

 >> Richard Pike

 >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 >>

 >> Forgiving is tough, being

 forgiven

 > is

 >> wonderful, and God's grace

 really

 > is amazing.

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >> Read this topic online here:

 >>

 >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >> The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 >> Navigator to browse

 >> List Un/Subscription,

 >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

 >>       -

 MATRONICS

 > WEB FORUMS -

 >> via the Web Forums!

 >>      - NEW

 MATRONICS LIST

 > WIKI -

 >> Email List Wiki!

 >>     - List

 Contribution

 > Web Site -

 >> support!

 >>       

  

 >      

 >>      -Matt

 Dralle, List

 > Admin.

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >

 > The Kolb-List Email Forum -

 > Navigator to browse

 > List Un/Subscription,

 > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

 >      - MATRONICS

 WEB FORUMS -

 > via the Web Forums!

 >     - NEW MATRONICS LIST

 WIKI -

 > Email List Wiki!

 >    - List Contribution

 Web Site -

 > support!

 >         

      

 >     -Matt Dralle, List

 Admin.

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >



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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

Bill, I was wondering? Did you buy this HKS engine and gearbox combination from a HKS distributor? If so, is HKS in such a state of financial insecurity that it won’t even consider swapping the the gearbox you have for one you need for say a 20 to 30% restock or exchange fee? It sure disturbs me to think of that kind business practice. I’d think they would have a hard time selling engines in the future. I mean I understand that you ordered the wrong gearbox, but come on. Maybe I just spent to much time in sells, rental and customer service. -George-

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On May 11, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback.

After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller.

The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc.

Onward !

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM

Bill I
can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with
A 72 inch prop with 7” clearance, 1” clearance, a 60”
prop turning 3200 rpm and 72” at 2000
rpm.
With a 72” prop and 7” clearance one person
operation was fine but with two I would run out of up
elevator at full power.
The 60” prop turned large amount of power into
noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72” prop gives twice the
thrust.
If you can fit a 70-74” prop depending on prop
recommendations with close to 1” clearance by raising the
engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the
apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft
change.
You might find the big reduction ratio a better
overall fit.
Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered
MKIII




On Wed, May 9,
2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>



The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox
case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and
slide them into place.



BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other
potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced
aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can
make a simple prop extension that is held on with one
central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller
before folding the wings.



The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville
Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel
washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is
tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression
force over a reasonable range of installation torques.



This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut
until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be
confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the
propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench,
elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides
a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of
havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the
bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc.



All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or
6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's
recommended distance from the tailboom.



The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will
never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane
into a major engineering project Smile



The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe
the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine.
If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my
mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you
get the 2.58 gearbox !



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities



--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
wrote:



Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM





Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>



Bill, I know that this might sound

crazy but, can’t you just buy a different set of gears
for

the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I

can’t imagine that HKS can’t supply replacement
parts.

The gearbox case doesn’t care what gears fit inside of
it.



If they don’t, I’d sure shy away

from buying one.

George Helton

1986 Firestar, FS100

14GDH

Mesick, Michigan

gdhelton(at)gmail.com



Sent from my iPhone



> On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill

Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

wrote:

>

> --> Kolb-List message posted

by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

>

> I have been pulling out what's

left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want
to

quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission

well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved
reliability.

I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot

afford to change it.

>

> What I have learned thus far is:

>

> 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really

wants to swing a larger propeller than what is

actually "correct" for the height of the
thrust line

on the Kolb airframe.

>

> 2) Turning the gearbox upwards

will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a

thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks
is

advisable.

>

> 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5

blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line

problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.

>

> I have considered many possible

solutions or "work-arounds" :

>

> 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and

remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of
the

problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and

effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all
the

"solutions".

>

> 2) Remove the wings after every

flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5
blade

propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me
to

build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to
be

removed and installed by myself alone.

>

> 3) Make a folding propeller, like

the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades
fold

rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex
ground

equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a
propeller

will be prohibitvely expensive.

>

> 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS.

This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot
afford

it.

>

> 5) Turn the gearbox upwards,

install the right propeller, and live with the possibly

dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.

>

> Any other/better/wiser/workable

ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!

>

>

>

>

> Bill Berle

> www.ezflaphandle.com
-

safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

> www.grantstar.net

- winning proposals for non-profit and

for-profit entities

>

>

--------------------------------------------

> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton

<gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

wrote:

>

> Subject: Re: Re: High

Thrust Line Question

> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39

AM

>

> --> Kolb-List message posted

by: George

> Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

>

> Well Bill, thanks for bringing up

the

> topic. I replaced my little Rotax

377 with new low rpm Hirth

> 2702 over the winter. I really

hadn’t measured the

> distance between the prop hub and

boom tube. You sparked my

> interest so I stopped by my hanger

this morning to check it

> out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox

with 2:29 to 1 ratio.

> which translates to 2400 rpm prop

speed (at) the engine’s

> max. HP rpm of 5500rpm.

> Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches.

This

> is on a Kolb original Firestar. I

did have to move the

> engine forward 2.625” to

compensate for the extra weight

> of the new gear box. I went with a

64” 3 blade Powerfin

> prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch.

This setup gives me 3.5”

> of clearance from the boom tube.

Thanks for inspiring me to

> check it out. I’m sure

there is a good combination

> of prop out there for an HKS.

> George Helton

> 1986 Firestar, FS100

> 14GDH

> Mesick, Michigan

> gdhelton(at)gmail.com

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

>> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM,

Bill

> Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

> wrote:

>>

>> --> Kolb-List message

posted

> by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

>>

>> Everybody THANK YOU for

taking

> time for this discussion.

>>

>> I spoke to the Kolb factory

today

> by phone, and went out to the

local UL flying field to see

> an HKS engine run.

>>

>> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were

asked

> one specific question by me:

What is the maximum

> number of inches allowable or

advisable between the center

> of the propeller and the top of

the tailboom?

>>

>> Bryan said that 36 inches is

about

> standard for a "normal" Firestar,

and he would not want to

> fly an airplane with that distance

raised to 39 or 40

> inches.

>>

>> I went back to my hangar and

> measured, and the distance on my

Firestar would be over 40

> or 41 inches if I turned the

gearbox upward. So if the Kolb

> factory owner says 40 inches is

too high, I can only be

> humble and assume that I wouldn't

want to fly it at 40

> inches either. If any of the

highly experienced Kolbers on

> this forum are flying with their

thrust line 40 inches above

> the tailboom, I REALLY would like

to know about it pronto.

>>

>> As big of an ego as I have had

a

> few times in my life, and as much

as I think of myself as a

> reasonably skilled pilot, I

don't need to be a test

> pilot here and try to push any

envelope at this early stage.

> So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a

favor... if any of you are

> flying a Firestar with the engine

thrust line 39 or 40 or 41

> incvhes above the tailboom please

post this on the list and

> let me know ifyou have any issues

with the handling,

> pitch-over, etc.

>>

>> Bill Berle

>> www.ezflaphandle.com
-

> safety & performance upgrade

for light aircraft

>> www.grantstar.net

> -

winning proposals for non-profit and

> for-profit entities

>>

>>

>

--------------------------------------------

>> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike

> <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

> wrote:

>>

>> Subject: Re: High

> Thrust Line Question

>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

>> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018,

4:38

> PM

>>

>> --> Kolb-List message

posted

> by: "Richard

>> Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

>>

>> Bill; notice the extent to

which

> Rick

>> raised his engine. (Great

> pictures) Maybe you can leave the

>> gearbox down and raise the

engine

> up?

>>

>> --------

>> Richard Pike

>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0

>>

>> Forgiving is tough, being

forgiven

> is

>> wonderful, and God's grace

really

> is amazing.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> The Kolb-List Email Forum -

>> Navigator to browse

>> List Un/Subscription,

>> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

>> -

MATRONICS

> WEB FORUMS -

>> via the Web Forums!

>> - NEW

MATRONICS LIST

> WIKI -

>> Email List Wiki!

>> - List

Contribution

> Web Site -

>> support!

>>



>

>> -Matt

Dralle, List

> Admin.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

> The Kolb-List Email Forum -

> Navigator to browse

> List Un/Subscription,

> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

> - MATRONICS

WEB FORUMS -

> via the Web Forums!

> - NEW MATRONICS LIST

WIKI -

> Email List Wiki!

> - List Contribution

Web Site -

> support!

>



> -Matt Dralle, List

Admin.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>



The Kolb-List Email Forum -

Navigator to browse

List Un/Subscription,

7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

via the Web Forums!

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Back to top
mojavjoe



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

BILL My two cents. On my FSII I could fold the wings with a two bladed prop horizontal by loosing the rear mount and lifting the engine slightly. Take a few measurements and you might be able to use a four bladed prop.
joe
Quote:
On May 11, 2018 at 1:44 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:




THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback.

After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller.

The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc.

Onward !

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM

Bill I
can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with
A 72 inch prop with 7” clearance, 1” clearance, a 60”
prop turning 3200 rpm and 72” at 2000
rpm.
With a 72” prop and 7” clearance one person
operation was fine but with two I would run out of up
elevator at full power.
The 60” prop turned large amount of power into
noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72” prop gives twice the
thrust.
If you can fit a 70-74” prop depending on prop
recommendations with close to 1” clearance by raising the
engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the
apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft
change.
You might find the big reduction ratio a better
overall fit.
Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered
MKIII




On Wed, May 9,
2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>



The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox
case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and
slide them into place.



BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other
potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced
aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can
make a simple prop extension that is held on with one
central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller
before folding the wings.



The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville
Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel
washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is
tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression
force over a reasonable range of installation torques.



This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut
until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be
confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the
propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench,
elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides
a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of
havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the
bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc.



All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or
6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's
recommended distance from the tailboom.



The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will
never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane
into a major engineering project Smile



The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe
the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine.
If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my
mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you
get the 2.58 gearbox !



Bill Berle

www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities



--------------------------------------------

On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
wrote:



Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM





Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>



Bill, I know that this might sound

crazy but, can’t you just buy a different set of gears
for

the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I

can’t imagine that HKS can’t supply replacement
parts.

The gearbox case doesn’t care what gears fit inside of
it.



If they don’t, I’d sure shy away

from buying one.

George Helton

1986 Firestar, FS100

14GDH

Mesick, Michigan

gdhelton(at)gmail.com



Sent from my iPhone



> On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill

Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

wrote:

>

> --> Kolb-List message posted

by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

>

> I have been pulling out what's

left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want
to

quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission

well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved
reliability.

I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot

afford to change it.

>

> What I have learned thus far is:

>

> 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really

wants to swing a larger propeller than what is

actually "correct" for the height of the
thrust line

on the Kolb airframe.

>

> 2) Turning the gearbox upwards

will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a

thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks
is

advisable.

>

> 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5

blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line

problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.

>

> I have considered many possible

solutions or "work-arounds" :

>

> 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and

remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of
the

problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and

effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all
the

"solutions".

>

> 2) Remove the wings after every

flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5
blade

propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me
to

build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to
be

removed and installed by myself alone.

>

> 3) Make a folding propeller, like

the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades
fold

rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex
ground

equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a
propeller

will be prohibitvely expensive.

>

> 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS.

This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot
afford

it.

>

> 5) Turn the gearbox upwards,

install the right propeller, and live with the possibly

dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.

>

> Any other/better/wiser/workable

ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!

>

>

>

>

> Bill Berle

> www.ezflaphandle.com
-

safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

> www.grantstar.net

- winning proposals for non-profit and

for-profit entities

>

>

--------------------------------------------

> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton

<gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

wrote:

>

> Subject: Re: Re: High

Thrust Line Question

> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39

AM

>

> --> Kolb-List message posted

by: George

> Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

>

> Well Bill, thanks for bringing up

the

> topic. I replaced my little Rotax

377 with new low rpm Hirth

> 2702 over the winter. I really

hadn’t measured the

> distance between the prop hub and

boom tube. You sparked my

> interest so I stopped by my hanger

this morning to check it

> out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox

with 2:29 to 1 ratio.

> which translates to 2400 rpm prop

speed (at) the engine’s

> max. HP rpm of 5500rpm.

> Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches.

This

> is on a Kolb original Firestar. I

did have to move the

> engine forward 2.625” to

compensate for the extra weight

> of the new gear box. I went with a

64” 3 blade Powerfin

> prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch.

This setup gives me 3.5”

> of clearance from the boom tube.

Thanks for inspiring me to

> check it out. I’m sure

there is a good combination

> of prop out there for an HKS.

> George Helton

> 1986 Firestar, FS100

> 14GDH

> Mesick, Michigan

> gdhelton(at)gmail.com

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

>> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM,

Bill

> Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

> wrote:

>>

>> --> Kolb-List message

posted

> by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>

>>

>> Everybody THANK YOU for

taking

> time for this discussion.

>>

>> I spoke to the Kolb factory

today

> by phone, and went out to the

local UL flying field to see

> an HKS engine run.

>>

>> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were

asked

> one specific question by me:

What is the maximum

> number of inches allowable or

advisable between the center

> of the propeller and the top of

the tailboom?

>>

>> Bryan said that 36 inches is

about

> standard for a "normal" Firestar,

and he would not want to

> fly an airplane with that distance

raised to 39 or 40

> inches.

>>

>> I went back to my hangar and

> measured, and the distance on my

Firestar would be over 40

> or 41 inches if I turned the

gearbox upward. So if the Kolb

> factory owner says 40 inches is

too high, I can only be

> humble and assume that I wouldn't

want to fly it at 40

> inches either. If any of the

highly experienced Kolbers on

> this forum are flying with their

thrust line 40 inches above

> the tailboom, I REALLY would like

to know about it pronto.

>>

>> As big of an ego as I have had

a

> few times in my life, and as much

as I think of myself as a

> reasonably skilled pilot, I

don't need to be a test

> pilot here and try to push any

envelope at this early stage.

> So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a

favor... if any of you are

> flying a Firestar with the engine

thrust line 39 or 40 or 41

> incvhes above the tailboom please

post this on the list and

> let me know ifyou have any issues

with the handling,

> pitch-over, etc.

>>

>> Bill Berle

>> www.ezflaphandle.com
-

> safety & performance upgrade

for light aircraft

>> www.grantstar.net

> -

winning proposals for non-profit and

> for-profit entities

>>

>>

>

--------------------------------------------

>> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike

> <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

> wrote:

>>

>> Subject: Re: High

> Thrust Line Question

>> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

>> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018,

4:38

> PM

>>

>> --> Kolb-List message

posted

> by: "Richard

>> Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

>>

>> Bill; notice the extent to

which

> Rick

>> raised his engine. (Great

> pictures) Maybe you can leave the

>> gearbox down and raise the

engine

> up?

>>

>> --------

>> Richard Pike

>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0

>>

>> Forgiving is tough, being

forgiven

> is

>> wonderful, and God's grace

really

> is amazing.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> The Kolb-List Email Forum -

>> Navigator to browse

>> List Un/Subscription,

>> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

>> -

MATRONICS

> WEB FORUMS -

>> via the Web Forums!

>> - NEW

MATRONICS LIST

> WIKI -

>> Email List Wiki!

>> - List

Contribution

> Web Site -

>> support!

>>



>

>> -Matt

Dralle, List

> Admin.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

> The Kolb-List Email Forum -

> Navigator to browse

> List Un/Subscription,

> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

> - MATRONICS

WEB FORUMS -

> via the Web Forums!

> - NEW MATRONICS LIST

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> - List Contribution

Web Site -

> support!

>



> -Matt Dralle, List

Admin.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>



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Richard Pike



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1520
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

Increasing the size/shape of the horizontal stab ought to solve a whole bunch of apparent control authority issues. It would not be a big deal to increase the chord of any Kolb horizontal stab, and it would not take but a little creative thinking to make it work very well and still retain the folding ability. As long as you keep the basic concepts the same, all you can do is make things better.

(Also - does nobody know how to edit/remove a whole boatload of previous/extraneous posts from their posts? So that we don't have posts that are full of scroll down/scroll down/scroll down extraneous/previous posts?
Not that I want to be the list Hall Monitor; but seriously? This is stuff that we knew how to deal with back in Windows 3.5!!)
Flame on...


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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Repairing the fiberglass nose bowl. Ugh.)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

I bought my HKS engine used from a guy in Petaluma, CA who was using it on a weight shift trike. No dealer or distributor was involved. Jerry Olenik (one US dealer) was wonderful to me before he passed away, and Chris Gatin (other US dealer) was great as well. I have no complaints with anyone on the factory or dealer end of this.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/11/18, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 11:14 AM


Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>

Bill, I was wondering? Did you buy this
HKS engine and gearbox combination from a HKS distributor?
If so, is HKS in such a state of financial insecurity that
it won’t even consider swapping the the gearbox you have
for one you need for say a 20 to 30% restock or exchange
fee? It sure disturbs me to think of that kind business
practice. I’d think they would have a hard time selling
engines in the future. I mean I understand that you ordered
the wrong gearbox, but come on. Maybe I just spent to much
time in sells, rental and customer service. -George-

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 11, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Bill
Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
> THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the
feedback.
>
> After all this enormous discussion
and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards
turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller.
>
> The reason for this is that I
believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run
out of elevator control because of the thrust line being
high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase
elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord
or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add
the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of
the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type
aircraft), etc.
>
> Onward !
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com  -
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net   
      - winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen
<neilsenrm(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Re: High
Thrust Line Question
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30
AM
>
> Bill I
> can only speak about the MKlll
with a VW. I have run It with
> A 72 inch prop with 7”
clearance, 1” clearance, a 60”
> prop turning 3200 rpm and 72” at
2000
> rpm.
> With a 72” prop and 7”
clearance one person
> operation was fine but with two I
would run out of up
> elevator at full power.
> The 60” prop turned large amount
of power into
> noise. The three blade 2000 rpm
72” prop gives twice the
> thrust.
> If you can fit a 70-74” prop
depending on prop
> recommendations with close to 1”
clearance by raising the
> engine do it. If you keep the prop
clearance the same the
> apparent thrust line change is
half the prop shaft
> change.
> You might find the big reduction
ratio a better
> overall fit.
> Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered
> MKIII
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 9,
> 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by:
> Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
>
>
> The replacement gear set does not
fit into the same gearbox
> case. So  unfortunately I
cannot just buy two new gears and
> slide them into place.
>
>
>
> BUT... I am making progress
towards one of the other
> potential solutions. After
consulting with an experienced
> aircraft structures and metallurgy
engineer, I believe I can
> make a simple prop extension that
is held on with one
> central nut (a great big nut !)
and remove the propeller
> before folding the wings.
>
>
>
> The key to doing this SAFELY is
called the Belleville
> Spring, or Belleville Washer. It
is a conical spring steel
> washer that becomes flat (like a
regular washer) as it is
> tightened, providing a known,
reliable tension/compression
> force over a reasonable range of
installation torques.
>
>
>
> This means that I can install the
propeller, tighten the nut
> until the Belleville Washer is
more or less flat, and be
> confident that there is plenty of
tension/compression in the
> propeller mounting without having
to use a torque wrench,
> elaborate bolt stretch charts,
etc. etc. This also provides
> a much more convenient and
error-proof option instead of
> havign to torque six propeller
bolts and safety wire the
> bolts, install six Cotter Pins,
etc.
>
>
>
> All of this means I will be
hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or
> 6 blade prop with the thrust line
within Kolb's
> recommended distance from the
tailboom.
>
>
>
> The only downside is that Kolbers
around the world will
> never stop making fun of me for
turning a simple airplane
> into a major engineering project
Smile
>
>
>
> The HKS engine is a VERY good
quality engine and I believe
> the other Kolb/HKS owners will
agree they love the engine.
> If you wish to use this engine on
a Kolb, don't hold my
> mis-adventures against the
engine... just make darn sure you
> get the 2.58 gearbox !
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade
for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net   
>      - winning
proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------
>
> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton
<gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>  Subject: Re: Re:
High Thrust Line Question
>
>  To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>
>  Date: Wednesday, May 9,
2018, 11:37 AM
>
>
>
>  --> Kolb-List message
posted by: George
>
>  Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
>
>
>
>  Bill, I know that this might
sound
>
>  crazy but, can’t you just
buy a different set of gears
> for
>
>  the gearbox? Being a
mechanic may be a benefit here but I
>
>  can’t imagine that HKS
can’t supply replacement
> parts.
>
>  The gearbox case doesn’t
care what gears fit inside of
> it.
>
>
>
>  If they don’t, I’d sure
shy away
>
>  from buying one.
>
>  George Helton
>
>  1986 Firestar, FS100
>
>  14GDH
>
>  Mesick, Michigan
>
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
>
>
>
>  Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>  > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18
PM, Bill
>
>  Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
>  wrote:
>
>  >
>
>  > --> Kolb-List
message posted
>
>  by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
>  >
>
>  > I have been pulling out
what's
>
>  left of my hair over this
issue. I really don't want
> to
>
>  quit, I LIKE the Kolb
airframe and it will fit my mission
>
>  well. I like the HKS fuel
economy and improved
> reliability.
>
>  I just wound up with the
wrong gearbox on it and cannot
>
>  afford to change it.
>
>  >
>
>  > What I have learned
thus far is:
>
>  >
>
>  > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox
really
>
>  wants to swing a larger
propeller than what is
>
>  actually  "correct" for
the height of the
> thrust line
>
>  on the Kolb airframe.
>
>  >
>
>  > 2) Turning the gearbox
upwards
>
>  will solve the prop diameter
problem, but it creates a
>
>  thrust line that is higher
than the Kolb factory thinks
> is
>
>  advisable.
>
>  >
>
>  > 3) I could easily go to
a 4 or 5
>
>  blade propeller, solves the
gearbox AND thrust line
>
>  problems, but that
interferes with folding the wings.
>
>  >
>
>  > I have considered many
possible
>
>  solutions or "work-arounds"
:
>
>  >
>
>  > 1) Get a 5 blade
propeller and
>
>  remove it after every
flight, which would allow ALL of
> the
>
>  problems to be solved, at
the cost of additional time and
>
>  effort every time I fly.
This will cost the least of all
> the
>
>  "solutions".
>
>  >
>
>  > 2) Remove the wings
after every
>
>  flight instead of folding
the wings. This allows a 5
> blade
>
>  propeller to be used but
adds complexity and requires me
> to
>
>  build a complicated ground
fixture to allow the wings to
> be
>
>  removed and installed by
myself alone.
>
>  >
>
>  > 3) Make a folding
propeller, like
>
>  the electric R/C model
gliders have, where the blades
> fold
>
>  rearward. This solves all of
the problems, no complex
> ground
>
>  equipment, but designing and
manufacturing such a
> propeller
>
>  will be prohibitvely
expensive.
>
>  >
>
>  > 4) Buy another gearbox
from HKS.
>
>  This is the best solution
mechanically, but I cannot
> afford
>
>  it.
>
>  >
>
>  > 5) Turn the gearbox
upwards,
>
>  install the right propeller,
and live with the possibly
>
>  dangerous or funky flight
handling of the airplane.
>
>  >
>
>  > Any
other/better/wiser/workable
>
>  ideas from the Kolb List are
very very welcome!
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  > Bill Berle
>
>  > www.ezflaphandle.com
> -
>
>  safety & performance
upgrade for light aircraft
>
>  > www.grantstar.net 

>
>        -
winning proposals for non-profit and
>
>  for-profit entities
>
>  >
>
>  >
>

--------------------------------------------
>
>  > On Wed, 5/9/18, George
Helton
>
>  <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
>
>  wrote:
>
>  >
>
>  > Subject: Re: Kolb-List:
Re: High
>
>  Thrust Line Question
>
>  > To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>
>  > Date: Wednesday, May 9,
2018, 9:39
>
>  AM
>
>  >
>
>  > --> Kolb-List
message posted
>
>  by: George
>
>  > Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com>
>
>  >
>
>  > Well Bill, thanks for
bringing up
>
>  the
>
>  > topic. I replaced my
little Rotax
>
>  377 with new low rpm Hirth
>
>  > 2702 over the winter. I
really
>
>  hadn’t measured the
>
>  > distance between the
prop hub and
>
>  boom tube. You sparked my
>
>  > interest so I stopped
by my hanger
>
>  this morning to check it
>
>  > out. The Hirth uses a
G50 gearbox
>
>  with 2:29 to 1 ratio.
>
>  > which translates to
2400 rpm prop
>
>  speed (at) the engine’s
>
>  > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm.

>
>  > Anyway, it measures
35.5 inches.
>
>  This
>
>  > is on a Kolb original
Firestar. I
>
>  did have to move the
>
>  > engine forward 2.625”
to
>
>  compensate for the extra
weight
>
>  > of the new gear box. I
went with a
>
>  64” 3 blade Powerfin
>
>  > prop set at 6.4 degrees
of pitch.
>
>  This setup gives me 3.5”
>
>  > of clearance from the
boom tube.
>
>  Thanks for inspiring me to
>
>  > check it out. 
I’m sure
>
>  there is a good combination
>
>  > of prop out there for
an HKS.
>
>  > George Helton
>
>  > 1986 Firestar, FS100
>
>  > 14GDH
>
>  > Mesick, Michigan
>
>  > gdhelton(at)gmail.com
>
>  >
>
>  > Sent from my iPhone
>
>  >
>
>  >> On May 8, 2018, at
11:08 PM,
>
>  Bill
>
>  > Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
>  > wrote:
>
>  >>
>
>  >> --> Kolb-List
message
>
>  posted
>
>  > by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
>  >>
>
>  >> Everybody THANK YOU
for
>
>  taking
>
>  > time for this
discussion.
>
>  >>
>
>  >> I spoke to the Kolb
factory
>
>  today
>
>  > by phone, and went out
to the
>
>  local UL flying field to
see
>
>  > an HKS engine run.
>
>  >>
>
>  >> Duane and Bryan at
Kolb were
>
>  asked
>
>  > one specific question
by me:
>
>  What is the maximum
>
>  > number of inches
allowable or
>
>  advisable between the
center
>
>  > of the propeller and
the top of
>
>  the tailboom?
>
>  >>
>
>  >> Bryan said that 36
inches is
>
>  about
>
>  > standard for a "normal"
Firestar,
>
>  and he would not want to
>
>  > fly an airplane with
that distance
>
>  raised to 39 or 40
>
>  > inches.
>
>  >>
>
>  >> I went back to my
hangar and
>
>  > measured, and the
distance on my
>
>  Firestar would be over 40
>
>  > or 41 inches if I
turned the
>
>  gearbox upward. So if the
Kolb
>
>  > factory owner says 40
inches is
>
>  too high, I can only be
>
>  > humble and assume that
I wouldn't
>
>  want to fly it at 40
>
>  > inches either. If any
of the
>
>  highly experienced Kolbers
on
>
>  > this forum are flying
with their
>
>  thrust line 40 inches above
>
>  > the tailboom, I REALLY
would like
>
>  to know about it pronto.
>
>  >>
>
>  >> As big of an ego as
I have had
>
>  a
>
>  > few times in my life,
and as much
>
>  as I think of myself as a
>
>  > reasonably 
skilled pilot, I
>
>  don't need to be a test
>
>  > pilot here and try to
push any
>
>  envelope at this early
stage.
>
>  > So if I can ask the
Kolb ilst a
>
>  favor... if any of you are
>
>  > flying a Firestar with
the engine
>
>  thrust line 39 or 40 or 41
>
>  > incvhes above the
tailboom please
>
>  post this on the list and
>
>  > let me know ifyou have
any issues
>
>  with the handling,
>
>  > pitch-over, etc.
>
>  >>
>
>  >> Bill Berle
>
>  >>
www.ezflaphandle.com
> -
>
>  > safety &
performance upgrade
>
>  for light aircraft
>
>  >>
www.grantstar.net 
>
>  >     
  -
>
>  winning proposals for
non-profit and
>
>  > for-profit entities
>
>  >>
>
>  >>
>
>  >
>

--------------------------------------------
>
>  >> On Tue, 5/8/18,
Richard Pike
>
>  > <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
>
>  > wrote:
>
>  >>
>
>  >> Subject: Kolb-List:
Re: High
>
>  > Thrust Line Question
>
>  >> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
>
>  >> Date: Tuesday, May
8, 2018,
>
>  4:38
>
>  > PM
>
>  >>
>
>  >> --> Kolb-List
message
>
>  posted
>
>  > by: "Richard
>
>  >> Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
>
>  >>
>
>  >> Bill; notice the
extent to
>
>  which
>
>  > Rick
>
>  >> raised his engine.
(Great
>
>  > pictures) Maybe you can
leave the
>
>  >> gearbox down and
raise the
>
>  engine
>
>  > up?
>
>  >>
>
>  >> --------
>
>  >> Richard Pike
>
>  >> Kolb MKIII N420P
(420ldPoops)
>
>  >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
>  >>
>
>  >> Forgiving is tough,
being
>
>  forgiven
>
>  > is
>
>  >> wonderful, and
God's grace
>
>  really
>
>  > is amazing.
>
>  >>
>
>  >>
>
>  >>
>
>  >>
>
>  >> Read this topic
online here:
>
>  >>
>
>  >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963
>
>  >>
>
>  >>
>
>  >>
>
>  >>
>
>  >>
>
>  >>
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest





PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:09 pm    Post subject: High Thrust Line Question Reply with quote

I looked at the stabilizer and elevator today and it seems that IF I had to enlarge the elevator area it would not be a difficult project. The worst thing that could happen is that I might have to move the outboard elevator hinge inboard 3 or 4 inches.

No modifications would be needed (or advisable) to the Kolb folding elevatorcontrol mechanism, the brace wires, the weight of the elevator behind the hinge line, etc. On high speed aircraft changing the space between the hinges can allow oscillation/flutter to develop, but on a <100 MPH airplane that is a very low probability.

Today I more or less finalized the straps and wood saddle blocks to mount my muffler under the tailboom. I bought real surplus aerospace hoop clamps which will strap the muffler in place, and had to shorten them by an inch or two and rivet them back together. Managed to find rubber C channel that fits over the straps the same way as the rubber channel on a padded Adel clamp. The rubber even matches the color of the airplane ! So all that is left on that mini-project is repainting the saddle blocks with good old Aerospace-Oleum rattle can paint.

Next project is weight and balance, finding where the battery needs to go or where it should not go. After that, the gearbox rotation and prop selection process. After that comes finalizing the electrical wiring, and after that is engine start and figuring out if it runs correctly.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/11/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:

Subject: Re: High Thrust Line Question
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 7:04 PM


Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>

Increasing the size/shape of the
horizontal stab ought to solve a whole bunch of apparent
control authority issues.  It would not be a big deal
to increase the chord of any Kolb horizontal stab, and it
would not take but a little creative thinking to make it
work very well and still retain the folding ability. As long
as you keep the basic concepts the same, all you can do is
make things better.

(Also - does nobody know how to
edit/remove a whole boatload of previous/extraneous posts
from their posts? So that we don't have posts that are full
of scroll down/scroll down/scroll down extraneous/previous
posts?
Not that I want to be the list Hall
Monitor; but seriously? This is stuff that we knew how to
deal with back in Windows 3.5!!)
Flame on...

--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is
wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480082#480082






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