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First Conditional

 
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vernon.franklin(at)gmail.
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject: First Conditional Reply with quote

My first year has flown by Smile I am starting my conditional this week.
I found this RV conditional check list online that looks pretty thorough, I thought I would share:

My main question for the group is in regards to logs.  What is the wording that I should use for the log entries when complete?  Specifically, for the Engine, Propeller and Aircraft logs.
Is it similar to an annual?  For example:  "I certify this XXX has been inspected in accordance with a conditional inspection, and was determined to be in an airworthy condition."

Thanks!
--
Vernon Franklin


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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 824
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: First Conditional Reply with quote

I think you will find suggested wording in your operating limitations document. These days the faa recommends you do not use the word “airworthy”, as that specifically means “Is in conformance with its type certificate”. Of course EAB aircraft don’t have a type certificate.

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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 824
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: First Conditional Reply with quote

Also, while most people keep separate logbooks for engine, airframe, and prop, there is no legal requirement to do so. One condition inspection sign off (usually in the airframe book) is all that is needed.

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Dave Saylor



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject: First Conditional Reply with quote

Maintained correctly, our airplanes are airworthy.  They have airworthiness certificates. They fit the FAA's definition, which acknowledges that they needn't conform to a type design.  91.7 says we're not allowed to take off unless the plane is airworthy.

If you want to substitute "airworthy" for "in a condition for safe operation" in your signoff, go ahead.  That's about as similarly worded as you can get!

8130.2J
Appendix I
Definitions:
Airworthy. An aircraft with a type certificate (TC) is airworthy when it conforms to its U.S. TC and is in a condition for safe operation. For the purpose of this order, a non-type-certificated aircraft is airworthy when it is in a condition for safe operation.

--Dave
On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 3:50 PM Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

I think you will find suggested wording in your operating limitations document. These days the faa recommends you do not use the word “airworthy”, as that specifically means “Is in conformance with its type certificate”. Of course EAB aircraft don’t have a type certificate.

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB




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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: First Conditional Reply with quote

You are debating with the FAA themselves. The definition says it has to have a type certificate. They then insert circular wording to say condition for safe operation means airworthy, which it does not. Experimental aircraft have a "special airworthiness certificate" because they don't meet the requirements for a "Standard" airworthiness certificate. Look at the required passenger warning on your instrument panel that states the aircraft does not meet all FA A airworthiness requirements.  Your operating limitations state the very specific language to be used for sign-off of a condition inspection. Use other language at your own peril. The language is there to protect you more than anything else. Type certificated aircraft have very specific language for sign off of their annual inspection, and any inspector that values his certificates will use that language.

Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 9:53 AM, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com (saylor.dave(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Maintained correctly, our airplanes are airworthy.  They have airworthiness certificates. They fit the FAA's definition, which acknowledges that they needn't conform to a type design.  91.7 says we're not allowed to take off unless the plane is airworthy.

If you want to substitute "airworthy" for "in a condition for safe operation" in your signoff, go ahead.  That's about as similarly worded as you can get!

8130.2J
Appendix I
Definitions:
Airworthy. An aircraft with a type certificate (TC) is airworthy when it conforms to its U.S. TC and is in a condition for safe operation. For the purpose of this order, a non-type-certificated aircraft is airworthy when it is in a condition for safe operation.

--Dave
On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 3:50 PM Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

I think you will find suggested wording in your operating limitations document. These days the faa recommends you do not use the word “airworthy”, as that specifically means “Is in conformance with its type certificate”. Of course EAB aircraft don’t have a type certificate.

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480425#480425






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===========






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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: First Conditional Reply with quote

The operating limitations, iirc, give the wording then say “or similarly worded statement”. The passenger warning says it does not meet the federal safety regulations for standard aircraft, but does not say anything about airworthiness. The special airworthiness certificate is still and airworthiness certificate. All that aside, the easiest way to handle it is to use the wording in the operating limitations. I see many experimentals that have past sign offs with the certified plane wording.

Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Sent from my iPad

On May 27, 2018, at 8:14 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
You are debating with the FAA themselves. The definition says it has to have a type certificate. They then insert circular wording to say condition for safe operation means airworthy, which it does not. Experimental aircraft have a "special airworthiness certificate" because they don't meet the requirements for a "Standard" airworthiness certificate. Look at the required passenger warning on your instrument panel that states the aircraft does not meet all FA A airworthiness requirements. Your operating limitations state the very specific language to be used for sign-off of a condition inspection. Use other language at your own peril. The language is there to protect you more than anything else. Type certificated aircraft have very specific language for sign off of their annual inspection, and any inspector that values his certificates will use that language.

Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 9:53 AM, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com (saylor.dave(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Maintained correctly, our airplanes are airworthy. They have airworthiness certificates. They fit the FAA's definition, which acknowledges that they needn't conform to a type design. 91.7 says we're not allowed to take off unless the plane is airworthy.

If you want to substitute "airworthy" for "in a condition for safe operation" in your signoff, go ahead. That's about as similarly worded as you can get!

8130.2J
Appendix I
Definitions:
Airworthy. An aircraft with a type certificate (TC) is airworthy when it conforms to its U.S. TC and is in a condition for safe operation. For the purpose of this order, a non-type-certificated aircraft is airworthy when it is in a condition for safe operation.

--Dave
On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 3:50 PM Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

I think you will find suggested wording in your operating limitations document. These days the faa recommends you do not use the word “airworthy”, as that specifically means “Is in conformance with its type certificate”. Of course EAB aircraft don’t have a type certificate.

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480425#480425






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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========








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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 824
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Re: First Conditional Reply with quote

Dave, thanks for your post. I got my info out of the mouth of the FSDO guy, who only quoted me the first half of the definition you posted. If I had read the whole thing, I would have argued with him about it. (My wife says I’m a contrarian by nature -Smile ).

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Dave Saylor



Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 126
Location: GILROY, CA

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:35 pm    Post subject: First Conditional Reply with quote

My pleasure, Bob. I figured as much. Some of those guys read a lot into a
little, and it gets under my skin when they start making up their own rules


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Dave Saylor



Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 126
Location: GILROY, CA

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 5:19 am    Post subject: First Conditional Reply with quote

I agree.  I've seen a lot of EABs with annuals signed off in the logs.  Same fit, form, and function, but an annual is not a condition inspection.

My concern would be, like Bob encountered, when a fed says we can't use the word "airworthy", like it's reserved for a higher class of aircraft or something.  Not the case.
--Dave

On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 5:52 PM Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:

Quote:
The operating limitations, iirc, give the wording then say “or similarly worded statement”. The passenger warning says it does not meet the federal safety regulations for standard aircraft, but does not say anything about airworthiness. The special airworthiness certificate is still and airworthiness certificate. All that aside, the easiest way to handle it is to use the wording in the operating limitations. I see many experimentals that have past sign offs with the certified plane wording. 

Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Sent from my iPad

On May 27, 2018, at 8:14 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
You are debating with the FAA themselves. The definition says it has to have a type certificate. They then insert circular wording to say condition for safe operation means airworthy, which it does not. Experimental aircraft have a "special airworthiness certificate" because they don't meet the requirements for a "Standard" airworthiness certificate. Look at the required passenger warning on your instrument panel that states the aircraft does not meet all FA A airworthiness requirements.  Your operating limitations state the very specific language to be used for sign-off of a condition inspection. Use other language at your own peril. The language is there to protect you more than anything else. Type certificated aircraft have very specific language for sign off of their annual inspection, and any inspector that values his certificates will use that language.

Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 9:53 AM, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com (saylor.dave(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Maintained correctly, our airplanes are airworthy.  They have airworthiness certificates. They fit the FAA's definition, which acknowledges that they needn't conform to a type design.  91.7 says we're not allowed to take off unless the plane is airworthy.

If you want to substitute "airworthy" for "in a condition for safe operation" in your signoff, go ahead.  That's about as similarly worded as you can get!

8130.2J
Appendix I
Definitions:
Airworthy. An aircraft with a type certificate (TC) is airworthy when it conforms to its U.S. TC and is in a condition for safe operation. For the purpose of this order, a non-type-certificated aircraft is airworthy when it is in a condition for safe operation.

--Dave
On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 3:50 PM Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

I think you will find suggested wording in your operating limitations document. These days the faa recommends you do not use the word “airworthy”, as that specifically means “Is in conformance with its type certificate”. Of course EAB aircraft don’t have a type certificate.

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480425#480425






===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========









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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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