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Lithium Batteries

 
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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject: Lithium Batteries Reply with quote

This is a update on my lithium battery (LiFe) in my redrive VW powered MKIIIC. The battery has been in service for four years and is performing great. Every year I take my balancing charger out to the hanger to balance the cells. This year the cells were showing 3.33 volts on two cells and 3.34 volts on two. The battery was also showing 13.20 volts which is its rated voltage after 7 months in storage. Once again I didn't balance the cells because my balance charger can't balance the cells any better. With the lead acid batteries I had to replace the batteries every three years. 
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Lithium battery Update
My LithiumFe battery is two years old. For the second winter the battery was left in the plane with no battery maintainer or charger attached. Maintainer/chargers aren't recommended and with only a 10% per year discharge not needed. The big VW started up just fine (after almost 7 months in storage) with no charging. Later I took my balance charger out to the hanger and checked the cell voltages. They were all exactly 3.35 volts so no balancing or charging required again. 
This new battery has so much reserve capacity that I have modified my start procedure. With my old 12 pound 12AH lead acid battery I would prime the engine and pull it through one engine revolution so that it would start on the first cylinder going through compression. When the temps were in the 50s this was critical to get the cold engine started. When the voltage dropped the ignition wouldn't fire. With the 1.8 pound lithium battery I just prime and hit the starter.  
See the following for battery details.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we are getting more experience with them so please share your experience in your airplane. 

Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to achieve a long life.


Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours (ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are some that may over state the performance/values of their products.


Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do other bad things???


I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing 12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did the recommended top off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with no change in cranking speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it is that light. I always kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid battery because it was so low in power and they do self discharge. With the tested power of the lithium battery I will not be using the battery maintainer. I also don't know if the maintainer is ok with lithium batteries. The manual with my Lithium battery states that there is less than a 10% discharge per year. Also I stated from memory that my plane weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that was before the battery change and redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs. Redoing my weight and balance calculations 

Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you are debating with someone please read the others responses.

Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC






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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4600
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:08 am    Post subject: Lithium Batteries Reply with quote

Good service out of the lithium battery, Rick N.

I have been using this  brand battery for the last 18 years:

https://www.batterymart.com/p-odyssey-pc680-battery.html

It is an AGM.  I remember before the AGMs battery, acid attacking my Aerothane paint, epoxy chromate primer and 4130 fuselage.  Was a pain in the butt.

2000 Sun and Fun Flyin, I was getting close to departing on my second flight to Alaska.  I had used a lead acid battery from Walmarts for my first flight.  Had to replace it when I got to Arlington, WA.  It wouldn't crank the 912UL in Ashland, OR.

Last year I had to replace my last Odyssey after  11 years service.  In the hanger I have a small solar panel/battery charger/maintainer to keep it charged.  In the last few years my MKIII has gotten very little use, but the little solar charger did its job.

Of course the AGM weighs 15 lbs.  Rick's Lithium weighs a fraction of that.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama




From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2018 11:08 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries


This is a update on my lithium battery (LiFe) in my redrive VW powered MKIIIC. The battery has been in service for four years and is performing great. Every year I take my balancing charger out to the hanger to balance the cells. This year the cells were showing 3.33 volts on two cells and 3.34 volts on two. The battery was also showing 13.20 volts which is its rated voltage after 7 months in storage. Once again I didn't balance the cells because my balance charger can't balance the cells any better. With the lead acid batteries I had to replace the batteries every three years.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC


On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Lithium battery Update



My LithiumFe battery is two years old. For the second winter the battery was left in the plane with no battery maintainer or charger attached. Maintainer/chargers aren't recommended and with only a 10% per year discharge not needed. The big VW started up just fine (after almost 7 months in storage) with no charging. Later I took my balance charger out to the hanger and checked the cell voltages. They were all exactly 3.35 volts so no balancing or charging required again.



This new battery has so much reserve capacity that I have modified my start procedure. With my old 12 pound 12AH lead acid battery I would prime the engine and pull it through one engine revolution so that it would start on the first cylinder going through compression. When the temps were in the 50s this was critical to get the cold engine started. When the voltage dropped the ignition wouldn't fire. With the 1.8 pound lithium battery I just prime and hit the starter.



See the following for battery details.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we are getting more experience with them so please share your experience in your airplane.


Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to achieve a long life.



Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours (ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are some that may over state the performance/values of their products.



Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do other bad things???



I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing 12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did the recommended top off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with no change in cranking speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it is that light. I always kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid battery because it was so low in power and they do self discharge. With the tested power of the lithium battery I will not be using the battery maintainer. I also don't know if the maintainer is ok with lithium batteries. The manual with my Lithium battery states that there is less than a 10% discharge per year. Also I stated from memory that my plane weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that was before the battery change and redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs. Redoing my weight and balance calculations



Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you are debating with someone please read the others responses.


Rick Neilsen

1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4600
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Lithium Batteries Reply with quote

Hopefully, I didn't mess up everyone's mind to badly with my msg below.

My excuse is, I painted some sheet metal valley tin on the roof of my house in the hot Alabama sun just before coming in and trying to type an email.

Let me see if I can straighten it out.  1994, I used wet lead acid battery for my first flight to Alaska.  It gave up in Ashland, OR, but was able to limp into Arlington, WA, to change it with a new wet battery.  On that same flight I had to get a jump start at Deadhorse/Prudhoe Bay Airport, Alaska.  The new battery didn't like cold weather.

2000 Sun and Fun, Tom Pehigny gave me two Hawker Odessey batteries to try, a 12 and 6 amp AGM.  End of my battery problems.

Back then if I could have gotten a lithium battery and the money to pay for it, I'd have probably used one.  Lithium wasn't available and the small AGMs were just being introduced.

Please excuse my feeble attempt to write an email.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama




From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2018 12:08 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Lithium Batteries

Good service out of the lithium battery, Rick N.

I have been using this brand battery for the last 18 years:

https://www.batterymart.com/p-odyssey-pc680-battery.html

It is an AGM. I remember before the AGMs battery, acid attacking my Aerothane paint, epoxy chromate primer and 4130 fuselage. Was a pain in the butt.

2000 Sun and Fun Flyin, I was getting close to departing on my second flight to Alaska. I had used a lead acid battery from Walmarts for my first flight. Had to replace it when I got to Arlington, WA. It wouldn't crank the 912UL in Ashland, OR.

Last year I had to replace my last Odyssey after 11 years service. In the hanger I have a small solar panel/battery charger/maintainer to keep it charged. In the last few years my MKIII has gotten very little use, but the little solar charger did its job.

Of course the AGM weighs 15 lbs. Rick's Lithium weighs a fraction of that.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama




From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2018 11:08 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Lithium Batteries


This is a update on my lithium battery (LiFe) in my redrive VW powered MKIIIC. The battery has been in service for four years and is performing great. Every year I take my balancing charger out to the hanger to balance the cells. This year the cells were showing 3.33 volts on two cells and 3.34 volts on two. The battery was also showing 13.20 volts which is its rated voltage after 7 months in storage. Once again I didn't balance the cells because my balance charger can't balance the cells any better. With the lead acid batteries I had to replace the batteries every three years.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC


On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Lithium battery Update



My LithiumFe battery is two years old. For the second winter the battery was left in the plane with no battery maintainer or charger attached. Maintainer/chargers aren't recommended and with only a 10% per year discharge not needed. The big VW started up just fine (after almost 7 months in storage) with no charging. Later I took my balance charger out to the hanger and checked the cell voltages. They were all exactly 3.35 volts so no balancing or charging required again.



This new battery has so much reserve capacity that I have modified my start procedure. With my old 12 pound 12AH lead acid battery I would prime the engine and pull it through one engine revolution so that it would start on the first cylinder going through compression. When the temps were in the 50s this was critical to get the cold engine started. When the voltage dropped the ignition wouldn't fire. With the 1.8 pound lithium battery I just prime and hit the starter.



See the following for battery details.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we are getting more experience with them so please share your experience in your airplane.


Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to achieve a long life.



Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours (ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are some that may over state the performance/values of their products.



Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do other bad things???



I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing 12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did the recommended top off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with no change in cranking speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it is that light. I always kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid battery because it was so low in power and they do self discharge. With the tested power of the lithium battery I will not be using the battery maintainer. I also don't know if the maintainer is ok with lithium batteries. The manual with my Lithium battery states that there is less than a 10% discharge per year. Also I stated from memory that my plane weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that was before the battery change and redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs. Redoing my weight and balance calculations



Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you are debating with someone please read the others responses.


Rick Neilsen

1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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