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Getting beat up by NorCal ATC
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dmasys



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:09 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yesterday
trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has
anybody else had a similar experience?

Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and
routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August 5
filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne
(KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for
some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight
plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after
departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k.

Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into
Sacramento, so no surprise
[wait for another pause in radio traffic]
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by.
[Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and
airline traffic]
Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk
code.
After that, thinking I had been forgotten:
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD.

No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to
talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson.

Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on
123.7:
Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636.
Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my
IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan.
Advise ready to copy.
Me: Ready to copy:
[Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully]

Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan?
Norcal: Try Flight Service.
Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area?
Norcal: Negative, don't have that information.
[I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS]
Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD.
FSS: Say request
Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR
flight plan.
FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR flight
plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal.
Me: Roger.
Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service
and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that.
Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting.
There is nothing more we can do for you

[Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland
Center]
Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k.
Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal
approach.
Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events).
Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE.
Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had
not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the
clearance.
Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake.

Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning
new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me
scratching my head. Any thoughts?

Dan Masys


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cderk



Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Sounds to me that it was just someone trying to be difficult.

That said, when IFR I’ve never heard anyone say they wanted to open an IFR flight plan. I always say I’d like to pick up my IFR clearance. Once I read back my clearance it’s assumed that I’m now “in the system” no further action is required. Never had an issue this way.

Quote:
On Aug 6, 2018, at 10:05 PM, Dan Masys <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu> wrote:



Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yesterday
trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has
anybody else had a similar experience?

Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and
routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August 5
filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne
(KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for
some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight
plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after
departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k.

Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into
Sacramento, so no surprise
[wait for another pause in radio traffic]
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by.
[Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and
airline traffic]
Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk
code.
After that, thinking I had been forgotten:
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD.

No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to
talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson.

Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on
123.7:
Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636.
Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my
IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan.
Advise ready to copy.
Me: Ready to copy:
[Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully]

Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan?
Norcal: Try Flight Service.
Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area?
Norcal: Negative, don't have that information.
[I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS]
Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD.
FSS: Say request
Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR
flight plan.
FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR flight
plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal.
Me: Roger.
Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service
and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that.
Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting.
There is nothing more we can do for you

[Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland
Center]
Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k.
Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal
approach.
Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events).
Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE.
Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had
not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the
clearance.
Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake.

Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning
new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me
scratching my head. Any thoughts?

Dan Masys








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flyboy(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

I too am confused.  What did you want them to do?  What do you think it means to "open" an IFR flight plan?

The purpose of an IFR flight plan is to help get you a clearance.  If you received an IFR clearance, you're good to go, there's nothing more to be done.  If you were operating under an IFR clearance, and then asked another controller after a handoff to "open your flight plan" I can imagine that they would be very confused.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Dan Masys <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu (dmasys(at)u.washington.edu)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Dan Masys" <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu (dmasys(at)u.washington.edu)>

Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yesterday
trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has
anybody else had a similar experience?

Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and
routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area.  Sunday August 5
filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne
(KHHR) in downtown L.A.  Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for
some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight
plans to get into the L.A. basin.  Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after
departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k.

Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into
Sacramento, so no surprise
[wait for another pause in radio traffic]
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal:  RV calling Norcal, stand by.
[Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and
airline traffic]
Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk
code.
After that, thinking I had been forgotten:
Me:  Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD.

No response for another thirty seconds.  I get it.  This guy is not going to
talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson.

Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on
123.7:
Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636.
Me: 3636 on the squawk.  RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my
IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan.
Advise ready to copy.
Me: Ready to copy:
[Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully]

Me:  Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan?
Norcal:  Try Flight Service.
Me:  Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area?
Norcal:  Negative, don't have that information.
[I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS]
Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD.
FSS:  Say request
Me:  I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR
flight plan.
FSS:  There must be some confusion.  Flight service can only open VFR flight
plans, not IFR flight plans.  Go back to Norcal.
Me: Roger.
Me (back on Norcal frequ):  Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service
and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that.
Norcal (same female voice):  I don't understand what you are requesting.
There is nothing more we can do for you

[Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland
Center]
Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k.
Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Oakland Center:  You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal
approach.
Me:  I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events).
Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active.  Cleared direct TTE.
Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had
not issued the clearance yet.  First you have to call them to get the
clearance.
Me:  Ok, sorry.  My mistake.

Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange:  I am totally about learning
new things and apologizing when I make a mistake.  But this one still has me
scratching my head.  Any thoughts?

Dan Masys



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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:00 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

I’m thinking the same thing. I file an IFR flight plan so I can get a clearance. I’ve never asked to open my flight plan. I call and say, “off X35 looking for my Ifr.” They say, “cleared...” and that’s it. I’m filed, cleared and done.
Jesse SaintSaint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
C: 352-427-0285
F: 815-377-3694
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 6, 2018, at 10:32 PM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy(at)gmail.com (flyboy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I too am confused. What did you want them to do? What do you think it means to "open" an IFR flight plan?

The purpose of an IFR flight plan is to help get you a clearance. If you received an IFR clearance, you're good to go, there's nothing more to be done. If you were operating under an IFR clearance, and then asked another controller after a handoff to "open your flight plan" I can imagine that they would be very confused.

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:05 PM, Dan Masys <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu (dmasys(at)u.washington.edu)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Dan Masys" <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu (dmasys(at)u.washington.edu)>

Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yesterday
trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has
anybody else had a similar experience?

Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and
routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August 5
filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne
(KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for
some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight
plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after
departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k.

Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into
Sacramento, so no surprise
[wait for another pause in radio traffic]
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by.
[Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and
airline traffic]
Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk
code.
After that, thinking I had been forgotten:
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD.

No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to
talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson.

Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on
123.7:
Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636.
Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my
IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan.
Advise ready to copy.
Me: Ready to copy:
[Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully]

Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan?
Norcal: Try Flight Service.
Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area?
Norcal: Negative, don't have that information.
[I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS]
Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD.
FSS: Say request
Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR
flight plan.
FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR flight
plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal.
Me: Roger.
Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service
and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that.
Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting.
There is nothing more we can do for you

[Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland
Center]
Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k.
Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal
approach.
Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events).
Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE.
Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had
not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the
clearance.
Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake.

Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning
new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me
scratching my head. Any thoughts?

Dan Masys



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====================================
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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====================================







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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1125
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Other responses are correct that a clearance does activate your flight plan.
IMHO, your first call should have been "Experimental  RV104LD off Lincoln request clearance."
While they should have had a strip on you already, your asking for clearance tells them they are supposed to have you and respond to you. Your call tells them who you are, where you are and what you want, succinctly.

I don't know the area, whether you could have gotten clearance on the ground or not, nor how you filed, perhaps for ATC to expect your clearance request at an airport fix.

Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 7:05 PM, Dan Masys <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu (dmasys(at)u.washington.edu)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Dan Masys" <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu (dmasys(at)u.washington.edu)>

Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yesterday
trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has
anybody else had a similar experience?

Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and
routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area.  Sunday August 5
filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne
(KHHR) in downtown L.A.  Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for
some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight
plans to get into the L.A. basin.  Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after
departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k.

Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into
Sacramento, so no surprise
[wait for another pause in radio traffic]
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal:  RV calling Norcal, stand by.
[Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and
airline traffic]
Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk
code.
After that, thinking I had been forgotten:
Me:  Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD.

No response for another thirty seconds.  I get it.  This guy is not going to
talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson.

Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on
123.7:
Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636.
Me: 3636 on the squawk.  RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my
IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan.
Advise ready to copy.
Me: Ready to copy:
[Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully]

Me:  Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan?
Norcal:  Try Flight Service.
Me:  Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area?
Norcal:  Negative, don't have that information.
[I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS]
Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD.
FSS:  Say request
Me:  I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR
flight plan.
FSS:  There must be some confusion.  Flight service can only open VFR flight
plans, not IFR flight plans.  Go back to Norcal.
Me: Roger.
Me (back on Norcal frequ):  Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service
and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that.
Norcal (same female voice):  I don't understand what you are requesting.
There is nothing more we can do for you

[Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland
Center]
Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k.
Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Oakland Center:  You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal
approach.
Me:  I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events).
Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active.  Cleared direct TTE.
Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had
not issued the clearance yet.  First you have to call them to get the
clearance.
Me:  Ok, sorry.  My mistake.

Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange:  I am totally about learning
new things and apologizing when I make a mistake.  But this one still has me
scratching my head.  Any thoughts?

Dan Masys



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====================================
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
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          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:35 am    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Hi All- In reading the other replies, I get that technically Dan should
have asked for and received a clearance.  But, it should have been clear
to ATC what Dan was trying to do.  It seems like they made his flight
unnecessarily difficult for some reason, not sure why.

Steve Farner
On 8/6/2018 9:05 PM, Dan Masys wrote:
Quote:


Sorry in advance for the long post, but I had a strange experience yesterday
trying to open an IFR flight plan and wonder 1) what I did wrong and 2) has
anybody else had a similar experience?

Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and
routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August 5
filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne
(KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for
some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight
plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after
departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k.

Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into
Sacramento, so no surprise
[wait for another pause in radio traffic]
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by.
[Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and
airline traffic]
Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk
code.
After that, thinking I had been forgotten:
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD.

No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to
talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson.

Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on
123.7:
Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636.
Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my
IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan.
Advise ready to copy.
Me: Ready to copy:
[Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully]

Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan?
Norcal: Try Flight Service.
Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area?
Norcal: Negative, don't have that information.
[I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS]
Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD.
FSS: Say request
Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR
flight plan.
FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR flight
plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal.
Me: Roger.
Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service
and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that.
Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting.
There is nothing more we can do for you

[Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland
Center]
Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k.
Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal
approach.
Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events).
Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE.
Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had
not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the
clearance.
Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake.

Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning
new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me
scratching my head. Any thoughts?

Dan Masys


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Bob Turner



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 833
Location: Castro Valley, CA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Like everyone else, I’m a bit puzzled. One possibility: ATC does not get everything that’s on your flight plan. Perhaps the controller thought somehow that you wanted to change your destination contact, or similar. For that you’d need to talk to FSS.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

To avoid lengthy clearance read-backs on an ATC frequency I get my clearance on the ground. The number is 888-766-8267 if no ground/clearance delivery frequency is available, like my non-towered airport. You get a window to take off and then contact ATC in the air. All you say is N1234 at 3000 climbing to XXXX because you are in the system.

File with ForeFlight and you will get an email back with the real clearance ATC will issue. Use this info to amend your clearance (back in ForeFlight) so when you call, “cleared as filed” is what you get.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Just the words used, as others have noted. “Open my flight plan” is almost certainly the problem. I’ll usually say something like “NXXXX just departed KXXX northeast bound climbing through 2000’ squawking 1200, request IFR clearance to KXXX”. They almost always come back quickly with a squawk code and once they have a positive ID on you they give you your clearance and you’re on your way. Obviously if the frequency is very busy, I shorten that initial call substantially. Interestingly, years ago flying in the Army, we were required to call Flight Service after airborne on an IFR flight and open the flight plan. Powers that be said that guaranteed search and rescue if you didn’t show up. 🙄Of course you had to remember to close it with Flight Service too. Definitely a “belt and suspenders” approach. At some point it was decided that we could trust ATC to sound the alarm if they lost us. It did make sense if you were flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace, but that was pretty rare.

David Maib
Quote:
On Aug 7, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:



Like everyone else, I’m a bit puzzled. One possibility: ATC does not get everything that’s on your flight plan. Perhaps the controller thought somehow that you wanted to change your destination contact, or similar. For that you’d need to talk to FSS.

--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB




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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:02 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

On 08/07/2018 10:33 AM, Steve Farner wrote:
Quote:


Hi All- In reading the other replies, I get that technically Dan should
have asked for and received a clearance.  But, it should have been clear
to ATC what Dan was trying to do.  It seems like they made his flight
unnecessarily difficult for some reason, not sure why.

I don't think they were trying to make things difficult, I think they
were genuinely confused about what he wanted. After he received his
clearance, he asked them to "open his flight plan". I asked in my
response, and Dan hasn't answered, but I'm not sure what it is he wanted
from them. I don't know, and they didn't either. I think this is
summed up pretty well by the controller who said, "I don't understand
what you are requesting. There is nothing more we can do for you."

I've actually thought about this interaction a bit since it was posted
last night, and I've got a few more comments.

First: Dan, kudos for coming here and asking for clarification about
what happened. This is what good pilots do. I think we've explained why
the controller was confused, but I'd love to know what you were asking
for and why after you received your clearance. I might be a
professional pilot and a flight instructor, but I haven't been flying
for 30+ years, and the FAA isn't very good about teaching us how things
were way back when. It's possible that something significant has
changed since your got your instrument rating, and I can't help the next
confused person if I don't know where you're coming from.

Second: As pilots, I think we all need to strive for standard radio
calls. It's extremely rare that that I hear non-standard phraseology
from ATC, but I hear it from fellow pilots (and sometimes myself) every
time I fly. GA pilots tend to be worse than airline pilots, but I hear
nonstandard nonsense from airline pilots all the time. Some of them are
pet peeves. I don't know why, for instance, you feel the need to
respond to "squawk 4224" with "4224 in the box." It's non-standard, it
takes longer to say than "squawk 4224", but I suspect everyone knows
what it means and in the grand scheme of things probably doesn't matter.

On the other hand: "Cessna 123's taking the active" is downright
terrible, and I hear it all the time. (1) What do you think the active
is? (2) Where are you departing? (3) Are you taking off, or just
holding in position?

Dan's case would be alleviated by using the phrasing listed in the AIM.
Quote:
From Section 5-2-5:

When requesting clearance for the IFR portion of a VFR/IFR flight,
request such clearance prior to the fix where IFR operation is proposed
to commence in sufficient time to avoid delay. Use the following
phraseology:
EXAMPLE−
“Los Angeles center, Apache Six One Papa, VFR estimating
Paso Robles VOR at three two, one thousand five
hundred, request IFR to Bakersfield.”

Now, I would guess that I've heard that phraseology exactly zero times.
More common is probably something along the lines of, "LA Center, Apache
Six One Papa is off of pasa robles at three thousand, looking to pick up
our IFR to Bakesfield."

Part of that is probably because the response to the first request will
almost certainly have been, "Apache Six One Papa, do you have a flight
plan filed?" The less standard request of "pick up our IFR" implies you
have a flight plan in the system.

Either one would have worked. But "opening a flight plan" is
phraseology that's generally reserved for VFR flight plans. Your IFR
flight plan is activated (as such) when you receive a clearance, so I
don't think anyone was trying to be difficult here, but rather simply
genuinely confused.

Early in your transcript, you mentioned that you were ignored. I think
this has happened to all of us flying VFR in busy airspace. Sometimes
controllers are saturated. I do think that controllers are more likely
to ignore a non-standard radio call from VFR traffic than a standard
radio call. Slow-speaking or non-standard calls from pilots indicate
that a busy frequency is going to get a lot worse if the ATC answers
you. There's nothing wrong with the call you typed, but I have no idea
how it sounded to the controller on the other end.

All this to say: if we could make a little more effort to make radio
calls like the AIM suggests we do, I think everyone would be better off.
We might find that ATC treats us a little better, and we're probably
all safer.

Berck


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Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1125
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

I can try to add a little background, as I worked a few years between FSS, tower and radar approach control in the 70's, back when FSS and non-radar were common, and one had to pay a lot of attention about how you were going to get into IFR system if there wasn't a departure procedure from your airport, or there wasn't radio reception, because exactly zero pilots had mobile phones and at least in the area I worked, making a landline call, then jumping in plane to make clearance void time wasn't too practical.  Issue for controller was whether you could reach controlled airspace providing your own terrain clearance, and when you got there, whether you would conflict with other IFR traffic.
A VFR departure to get IFR should make the first call as N123 off Timbuktu request clearance to Podunk. That gives me a clue you might have filed and I should have a departure strip.  If I see nothing I have data man call center, and I ask you if you filed.  That assumes you are calling correct sector for your clearance. If I am busy, the rest will be a standby for clearance, or telling you to contact FSS to see if your flight plan has been forwarded.  Much of that no longer exists with computers. No more typing flight plan into teletype to go to center, no more calling center on landline to get your clearance, etc. Old days you could expect an hour for processing and transmission of flight plan to correct sector or departure tower/approach control.
I did not particularly like calls in the dark, not telling me what you wanted and where you were. Just mean I had to answer your call and hope you don't start with an IFR student type request tying up my frequency. 

Often good to consult with FBO for standard IFR departure procedures if you are unfamiliar with departing a particular airport.
It can get weird. Like Claremont County in Cinncinati...the last time I went out of there IFR, the only place on airport you could get reliable radio with approach control was mid-field. With low ceiling, had to wait for aircraft on approach, even though he broke out 2 miles out, and they couldn't release me until arrival remembered to cancel after landing.  Then taxi to end of runway and launch within void time.
Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Berck E. Nash <flyboy(at)gmail.com (flyboy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com (flyboy(at)gmail.com)>

On 08/07/2018 10:33 AM, Steve Farner wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Steve Farner <farnersteve(at)gmail.com (farnersteve(at)gmail.com)>
>
> Hi All- In reading the other replies, I get that technically Dan should
> have asked for and received a clearance.  But, it should have been clear
> to ATC what Dan was trying to do.  It seems like they made his flight
> unnecessarily difficult for some reason, not sure why.

I don't think they were trying to make things difficult, I think they
were genuinely confused about what he wanted.  After he received his
clearance, he asked them to "open his flight plan".  I asked in my
response, and Dan hasn't answered, but I'm not sure what it is he wanted
from them.  I don't know, and they didn't either.  I think this is
summed up pretty well by the controller who said, "I don't understand
what you are requesting. There is nothing more we can do for you."

I've actually thought about this interaction a bit since it was posted
last night, and I've got a few more comments.

First: Dan, kudos for coming here and asking for clarification about
what happened.  This is what good pilots do. I think we've explained why
the controller was confused, but I'd love to know what you were asking
for and why after you received your clearance.  I might be a
professional pilot and a flight instructor, but I haven't been flying
for 30+ years, and the FAA isn't very good about teaching us how things
were way back when.  It's possible that something significant has
changed since your got your instrument rating, and I can't help the next
confused person if I don't know where you're coming from.

Second: As pilots, I think we all need to strive for standard radio
calls.  It's extremely rare that that I hear non-standard phraseology
from ATC, but I hear it from fellow pilots (and sometimes myself) every
time I fly.  GA pilots tend to be worse than airline pilots, but I hear
nonstandard nonsense from airline pilots all the time.  Some of them are
pet peeves.  I don't know why, for instance, you feel the need to
respond to "squawk 4224" with "4224 in the box."  It's non-standard, it
takes longer to say than "squawk 4224", but I suspect everyone knows
what it means and in the grand scheme of things probably doesn't matter.

On the other hand: "Cessna 123's taking the active" is downright
terrible, and I hear it all the time.  (1) What do you think the active
is?  (2) Where are you departing?  (3) Are you taking off, or just
holding in position?

Dan's case would be alleviated by using the phrasing listed in the AIM.
>From Section 5-2-5:

When requesting clearance for the IFR portion of a VFR/IFR flight,
request such clearance prior to the fix where IFR operation is proposed
to commence in sufficient time to avoid delay. Use the following
phraseology:
EXAMPLE−
“Los Angeles center, Apache Six One Papa, VFR estimating
Paso Robles VOR at three two, one thousand five
hundred, request IFR to Bakersfield.”

Now, I would guess that I've heard that phraseology exactly zero times.
More common is probably something along the lines of, "LA Center, Apache
Six One Papa is off of pasa robles at three thousand, looking to pick up
our IFR to Bakesfield."

Part of that is probably because the response to the first request will
almost certainly have been, "Apache Six One Papa, do you have a flight
plan filed?"  The less standard request of "pick up our IFR" implies you
have a flight plan in the system.

Either one would have worked.  But "opening a flight plan" is
phraseology that's generally reserved for VFR flight plans.  Your IFR
flight plan is activated (as such) when you receive a clearance, so I
don't think anyone was trying to be difficult here, but rather simply
genuinely confused.

Early in your transcript, you mentioned that you were ignored.  I think
this has happened to all of us flying VFR in busy airspace.  Sometimes
controllers are saturated.  I do think that controllers are more likely
to ignore a non-standard radio call from VFR traffic than a standard
radio call.  Slow-speaking or non-standard calls from pilots indicate
that a busy frequency is going to get a lot worse if the ATC answers
you.  There's nothing wrong with the call you typed, but I have no idea
how it sounded to the controller on the other end.

All this to say: if we could make a little more effort to make radio
calls like the AIM suggests we do, I think everyone would be better off.
 We might find that ATC treats us a little better, and we're probably
all safer.

Berck
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Some thoughts below from an east coast '10 Driver...

Quote:


Background: have been an active instrument rated pilot for 30+ years and
routinely fly my RV-10 IFR, but mostly in the Seattle area. Sunday August 5
filed an online IFR flight plan from Lincoln Regional (KLHM) to Hawthorne
(KHHR) in downtown L.A. Was a blue sky day everywhere (well, except for
some wildfire smoke) and this was one of those 'administrative IFR' flight
plans to get into the L.A. basin. Radio exchange begins at about 0800 after
departing KLHM VFR, climbing for 11k.

Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal on 125.8: no response, but relatively busy handling arrivals into
Sacramento, so no surprise
[wait for another pause in radio traffic]
Given the busy frequency/traffic, I would be concerned that the

controller thinks I'm a VFR pilot looking for flight following or
clearance into a Class B or C.  I would be particularly concerned if I
didn't know from experience that this is the frequency where they expect
IFR departures from satellite airports.  So my next call would be
something like "Norcal dparture, experimental 104 Lima Delta IFR Hawthorne"
Quote:
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal: RV calling Norcal, stand by.
[Approximately 2 minutes goes by, conversations end between Norcal and
airline traffic]
Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk
code.
After that, thinking I had been forgotten:
I'm thinking that the other RV is VFR and got a squawk for FF and now

I"m semi-convinced that the controller is assuming the same of me.
Quote:
Me: Norcal departure, experimental RV N104LD.

No response for another thirty seconds. I get it. This guy is not going to
talk to me and is apparently trying to teach me a lesson.
I've had this happen to me before but only when VFR getting VFR

services.  Rather than trying to teach a lesson my guess is that they
are using the rule book to manage their workload on a busy day.  Bottom
line is that they assume for whatever reasons that you are VFR traffic.
Quote:

Now 40 miles down the road, am in another Norcal sector and try them on
123.7:
Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD
Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636.
Assuming that 3636 was the actual code, anyone know whether this is a

VFR or IFR code for NORCAL ATC?  I've noticed that different ranges are
used for the two types, at least in certain areas.
Quote:
Me: 3636 on the squawk. RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my
IFR flight plan to KHHR.
I would say "4LimaDelta departed Lincoln IFR Hawthorne" .  The "open my

plan" is VFR terminology and I'm guessing confusing for some, but no
real problem here.
Quote:
Norcal: 104LD, I can issue your clearance but cannot open your flight plan.
Advise ready to copy.
This controller was confused by the 'open plan' terminology.  I'm

guessing that 3636 was a VFR code, did they change your code when giving
you the clearance?  I'd also guess that she is looking at your filed
plan on a strip at this point and all is good.
Quote:
Me: Ready to copy:
[Clearance is given as filed, and read back successfully]
Everything is fine now, task complete.

Everything from this point on is unnecessary, confused and confusing.
Quote:

Me: Who should I call to open the IFR flight plan?
Norcal: Try Flight Service.
Me: Do you have a preferred frequency for them in this area?
Norcal: Negative, don't have that information.
[I find Murieta Springs Radio frequency and call FSS]
Me: Murieta radio, experimental RV N104LD.
FSS: Say request
Me: I was told to contact you by Norcal, who said they cannot open my IFR
flight plan.
FSS: There must be some confusion. Flight service can only open VFR flight
plans, not IFR flight plans. Go back to Norcal.
Me: Roger.
Me (back on Norcal frequ): Norcal, this is N104LD; contacted Flight Service
and they said they cannot open an IFR flight plan; you have to do that.
Norcal (same female voice): I don't understand what you are requesting.
There is nothing more we can do for you

[Now 55 miles down the road and level at 11k, I decide to call Oakland
Center]
Me: Oakland Center, experimental RV104LD 10 northeast of Linden VOR at 11k.
Would like to open our IFR flight plan to KHHR.
Oakland Center: You should have opened your flight plan with Norcal
approach.
Me: I tried. (and further explain the strange sequence of events).
Oakland Center: Ok, your flight plan is active. Cleared direct TTE.
Apparently Norcal reacted to your trying to open a flight plan when they had
not issued the clearance yet. First you have to call them to get the
clearance.
Me: Ok, sorry. My mistake.

Commentary on this rather bizarre interchange: I am totally about learning
new things and apologizing when I make a mistake. But this one still has me
scratching my head. Any thoughts?

Dan Masys



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Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

I suspect the 2nd RV calling got accepted because controller thought it
was the 1st RV calling back.
As for squawk codes, generally those that stay within an
approach/departure control area get code starting with a 0.
Most aircraft going beyond one facility get either tower enroute or
center code. They generally start with a digit other than 0.
In old, pre-computer days when you could only see a difference in
spacing between slashes to know which code....approach would use 0300 or
0400 for IFR arrival or departure. 0100 for flight following. It helped
keep track of which target was which and told other sectors what you
were doing with the aircraft.
I agree the initial call should include something to the effect of
requesting IFR clearance with destination.

On 8/8/2018 1:17 PM, Bill Watson wrote:
Quote:


Some thoughts below from an east coast '10 Driver...

Quote:
> Another RV calls Norcal and is immediately responded to, given a squawk
> code.
> After that, thinking I had been forgotten:
I'm thinking that the other RV is VFR and got a squawk for FF and now

Quote:
> Me: Norcal approach, experimental RV N104LD
> Norcal (female voice): RV 104LD, squawk 3636.
Assuming that 3636 was the actual code, anyone know whether this is a
VFR or IFR code for NORCAL ATC?  I've noticed that different ranges are
used for the two types, at least in certain areas.
> Me: 3636 on the squawk.  RV104LD is off Lincoln and would like to open my
> IFR flight plan to KHHR.
I would say "4LimaDelta departed Lincoln IFR Hawthorne" .


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:38 am    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

FWIW, I never picked up the habit of calling myself an 'RV'.  I
consistently ID myself as "Experimental 215Tango Golf" or just "5Tango
Golf".  This may work for me since 90+% of my flights are on an IFR
plan.  Often I'm referred to by ATC as "RV 5Tango Golf" which I presume
they pickup from my plan 'strip' but I stick to "Experimental..."

Not sure if that helps or hurts but it's never caused confusion and only
rarely results in me being asked for aircraft type.... very rarely. 
This may not work as smoothly using VFR FF.

Thanks for insight Kelly.

On 8/8/2018 4:31 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote:


I suspect the 2nd RV calling got accepted because controller thought
it was the 1st RV calling back.
As for squawk codes, generally those that stay within an
approach/departure control area get code starting with a 0.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:32 am    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

From the AIM, 4-2-4:
3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft
type, model or manufacturer’s name, followed by the
digits/letters of the registration number. When the
aircraft manufacturer’s name or model is stated, the
prefix “N” is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four
Alpha.
EXAMPLE−
1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf.
2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit
“Experimental” after initial contact).

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 8:35 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

FWIW, I never picked up the habit of calling myself an 'RV'.  I consistently ID myself as "Experimental 215Tango Golf" or just "5Tango Golf".  This may work for me since 90+% of my flights are on an IFR plan.  Often I'm referred to by ATC as "RV 5Tango Golf" which I presume they pickup from my plan 'strip' but I stick to "Experimental..."

Not sure if that helps or hurts but it's never caused confusion and only rarely results in me being asked for aircraft type.... very rarely.  This may not work as smoothly using VFR FF.

Thanks for insight Kelly.

On 8/8/2018 4:31 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

I suspect the 2nd RV calling got accepted because controller thought it was the 1st RV calling back.
As for squawk codes, generally those that stay within an approach/departure control area get code starting with a 0.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Looks like I could do better.

On 8/9/2018 11:30 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote:

Quote:
From the AIM, 4-2-4:


3. Civil aircraft pilots should state the aircraft
type, model or manufacturer’s name, followed by the
digits/letters of the registration number. When the
aircraft manufacturer’s name or model is stated, the
prefix “N” is dropped; e.g., Aztec Two Four Six Four
Alpha.
EXAMPLE−
1. Bonanza Six Five Five Golf.
2. Breezy Six One Three Romeo Experimental (omit
“Experimental” after initial contact).



On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 8:35 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

FWIW, I never picked up the habit of calling myself an 'RV'.  I consistently ID myself as "Experimental 215Tango Golf" or just "5Tango Golf".  This may work for me since 90+% of my flights are on an IFR plan.  Often I'm referred to by ATC as "RV 5Tango Golf" which I presume they pickup from my plan 'strip' but I stick to "Experimental..."

Not sure if that helps or hurts but it's never caused confusion and only rarely results in me being asked for aircraft type.... very rarely.  This may not work as smoothly using VFR FF.

Thanks for insight Kelly.





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dmasys



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departure
strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in
NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone
while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates the
issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any
misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology.

A few additional details on my long story:

1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back
correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to
believe the IFR clearance was not yet active.

2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I called
Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in the
system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here it
is", followed by "cleared direct TTE."

3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and
asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial code
given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous
controller even more curious.

But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open
an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without incident
literally for decades.

Tailwinds to all,
-Dan Masys


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flyboy(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:52 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Wow, that's even more confusing.  Unless she issued you a clearance that started with something like "When reaching [altitude or fix], cleared to...", I can't imagine what she meant by "maintain VFR"  An IFR clearance means you can operate IFR.  You were right to continue questioning in that case, but you probably should have questioned her specifically about the VFR restriction and indicated reiterated that you're requesting IFR.  I realize it was VMC so you weren't concerned about the limitation, but that definitely doesn't make any sense.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:33 PM, Dan Masys <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu (dmasys(at)u.washington.edu)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Dan Masys" <dmasys(at)u.washington.edu (dmasys(at)u.washington.edu)>

Thanks all for the educational input.  I definitely have an IFR departure
strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in
NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone
while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere.  It eliminates the
issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any
misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology.

A few additional details on my long story:

1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back
correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to
believe the IFR clearance was not yet active.

2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I called
Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in the
system for you.'  After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here it
is", followed by "cleared direct TTE." 

3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and
asked the Center controller about it.  He confirmed that the initial code
given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous
controller even more curious.

But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open
an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without incident
literally for decades.

Tailwinds to all,
-Dan Masys


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

Just one of those days when nothing lined up properly!

No need to overreact though.  I know I will continue to pickup
clearances in the air in my uncongested piece of the country but I won't
hesitate to do it elsewhere when needed.  Experience has suggested that
it's not the best strategy say in the NYC area where you might get
(quickly) scolded before (quickly) getting the clearance.  And it can be
a handful around Miami where there's bound to be a dozen VFR targets
orbiting your climb corridor while ATC tries to locate your plane and
your plan.

I would suggest that if you include "IFR" somewhere in  your initial
call-up, you won't be ignored, even in the busiest airspace.  And if you
eliminate any mention of a opening an IFR flight plan you'll avoid much
of what happened on that not so fateful day.

Thanks for sharing the experience, I definitely learned some stuff.

On 8/9/2018 5:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote:
Quote:


Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departure
strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in
NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone
while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates the
issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any
misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology.

A few additional details on my long story:

1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back
correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to
believe the IFR clearance was not yet active.

2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I called
Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in the
system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here it
is", followed by "cleared direct TTE."

3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and
asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial code
given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous
controller even more curious.

But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open
an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without incident
literally for decades.

Tailwinds to all,
-Dan Masys


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rjones560xl@gmail.com



Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 9
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Getting beat up by NorCal ATC Reply with quote

I am a professional pilot (not the airlines). I am building an RV10, engine mounted and cowled with the prop on. I fly my current jet in and out of small fields with no tower all the time, as well as in and out every class B Airport and the small ones under the B veil, as well as every place you can think of from northern Canada and Alaska to the Caribbean and Central America. I do my best never to depart VFR and pick up my clearance airborne. There are just too many problems that can arise. One of the problems is radar coverage. ATC can’t give you a clearance airborne if they can’t see you yet. Even if they can see you, you may be too close to another aircraft to give you a legal IFR clearance. On the ground they can give you a clearance without seeing you because they can protect the entire airspace you need for your cleared route until you are on radar. This can cause some delay on the ground while they are clearing the airspace for you. They also may not own the airspace you are in when you call center, hence the reply to maintain VFR. Another reason they may tell you to “remain VFR” is will have inadequate separation shortly. Sometimes some other entity owns the airspace you are in. Sometimes the ATC controller is so busy with their current traffic that they just don’t have time to read you a clearance just then.

On the ground, without a tower, my choices in order of preference are, call whoever owns the airspace on the RCO frequency, call Flight Service on the radio, call whoever owns the airspace on a cell phone, and my least favorite is call the 800 number for Flight Service. Their is also the occasional dialup RCO. A radio transceiver on he field that is hooked up to a dedicated phone line. Usually 5 clicks on the transmitter and it will dial the programmed number to ATC. Calling Flight Service on the phone is usually really painful and I try to avoid it. Most of the time when I am in less familiar territory, which is usually out in the boonies somewhere, I ask the last ATC controller for a telephone number for outbound clearance. Then I pick up my clearance on the ground with my cell phone. If there is no cell phone coverage, I use a land line with a void time. If I drove a rental car out to some small field to pick up a stranded aircraft I have found that there is usually someone at the FBO or a local pilot, who knows the number to call. Sometimes it is taped the the weather computer.

I can’t think of anywhere in NORCAL’s airspace that is not high density. They own the airspace up to around FL230 in their area. Oakland Center owns the airspace higher than that. This is a little unusual as the Center Airspace usually starts a lot lower almost everywhere else.

If you think a Jet pilot knows nothing about operating out of small fields, I would point out that I have landed at lots of runways with no fuel or even buildings, runways 50X3800’ with a teardrop at each end so we could turn around. There were dirt 2 track roads into those kind of places. I can fly in the boonies with anyone. I am also quite comfortable at LAX, SFO, ORD, LGA, JFK, IAD and DCA.

Robert Jones

Quote:
On Aug 10, 2018, at 15:58, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:



Just one of those days when nothing lined up properly!

No need to overreact though. I know I will continue to pickup clearances in the air in my uncongested piece of the country but I won't hesitate to do it elsewhere when needed. Experience has suggested that it's not the best strategy say in the NYC area where you might get (quickly) scolded before (quickly) getting the clearance. And it can be a handful around Miami where there's bound to be a dozen VFR targets orbiting your climb corridor while ATC tries to locate your plane and your plan.

I would suggest that if you include "IFR" somewhere in your initial call-up, you won't be ignored, even in the busiest airspace. And if you eliminate any mention of a opening an IFR flight plan you'll avoid much of what happened on that not so fateful day.

Thanks for sharing the experience, I definitely learned some stuff.

> On 8/9/2018 5:33 PM, Dan Masys wrote:
>
>
> Thanks all for the educational input. I definitely have an IFR departure
> strategy now for this (and any) uncontrolled airport, particularly in
> NorCal's jurisdiction: get a clearance plus void time release via phone
> while on the ground, even if it is blue skies everywhere. It eliminates the
> issue of getting ignored during initial call-up, and saves any
> misunderstanding caused by nonstandard radio phraseology.
>
> A few additional details on my long story:
>
> 1. When the female controller issued my clearance and I read it back
> correctly, the last thing she said was 'Maintain VFR.', which led me to
> believe the IFR clearance was not yet active.
>
> 2. This was further reinforced when approximately ten minutes later I called
> Oakland Center and their initial response was 'We don't have anything in the
> system for you.' After a pause the Center controller remarked, "Oh, here it
> is", followed by "cleared direct TTE."
>
> 3. I also was concerned that initially I had been given a VFR squawk, and
> asked the Center controller about it. He confirmed that the initial code
> given was an IFR code, which made the "maintain VFR" remark of the previous
> controller even more curious.
>
> But all of that notwithstanding, I know forevermore not to attempt to 'open
> an IFR flight plan' even though that phraseology had worked without incident
> literally for decades.
>
> Tailwinds to all,
> -Dan Masys


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