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Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle
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Jerry-TS-MkII



Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 43
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Bill,
I remember a Mitchell B-10 that had the clear center section blow out. It's a swept-back flying wing. The loss of forward lift caused a non-recoverable pitch down (with the wing mounted elevons not having much authority).

In your case, with increased airflow ahead of the prop, that will have a significant input. And with the trailing area being open, it could be causing a pitch up condition to some degree.

No canopy? That should certainly change your cruise, but without one, the airflow is highly disrupted, heading towards the tail. None of your tail feathers will work as well, flying in dirty air.

You guys all talk about CG as if it's set in stone. MOVING IT, WILL change flight characteristics, and how it trims out. But complaining however will not change stick pressure! And I'd bet every other airplane you've flown, had an adjustable trim tab, not fixed, on the elevator. Rudder, sure, but elevator trim should be change-able in flight.

And for the guy who says a datum point must be at the mains, the datum point can be Muncie Indiana, as long as the measurements are correct, and the weights are recorded, and the (simple) math is done without mistakes. The datum could be at the tail wheel.. or anywhere!

Sounds like you are getting closer.. but I'd still have a camera looking at your wing covering in flight. Should it choose to depart.. the trim issues become very less important.

Hope you get it dialed in.. but do share the real CG recalculations! Helping a guy once to his 2nd R/C airplane flight, after a few tweaks, I happened to recheck the balance, and the tail dropped BIG TIME. He left some 6" side cuts inside the fuse after trimming a pushrod, and then picked it up to load, and they went all the way to the tail. It would have been instant crash w/o a bit of luck and discovery.

Spitballing? It's not easy trimming a plane, while IN IT. To me, this seems like one of the most intelligent and involved conversations I've seen on this forum. LOTS of good ideas and inputs. Kudos to all who have signed in!

Jerry
TS MK II


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Extremely difficult to trouble shoot an aircraft that one is not familiar with, especially a Kolb. That being said, I would think it would also be difficult for that person to accurately describe and correct those problems. In this case we have no idea what the "real" root problem is, but there is definitely something wrong with BB's Kolb. That we know for sure, without flying it.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:51 am    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Someone on the homebuilt airplanes internet group postulated that the "allowable CG range" may mean the range where the aircraft is controll-able, not necessarily trim-able.

Some of the more experieced Kolbers who have flkown Kolb aircraft at the rear edge of the CG range... was the aircraft able to be trimmed for level flight at those rearward CG's ???? Or was it n ecessary to hold stick pressure?

That would answer a LOT of all these questions.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 8/16/18, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, August 16, 2018, 9:30 AM


Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

Extremely difficult to trouble shoot an
aircraft that one is not familiar with, especially a
Kolb.  That being said, I would think it would also be
difficult for that person to accurately describe and correct
those problems.  In this case we have no idea what the
"real" root problem is, but there is definitely something
wrong with BB's Kolb.  That we know for sure, without
flying it.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama




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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

In my experience Kolbs don't have cg problems if built according to plans. Kolb cg is wide and forgiving. I think I shared with the List my experience flying my MKIII with a 12+ lb Maule Tundra Tail Wheel. Made one of my flights to Alaska with it plus all the other gear and fuel I carry behind the cg. I have never had a cg problem, even configured that way.

If you can fly your Kolb with the cg from one extreme to the other, I would think you could correct any adverse pitch trim with a trim tab. In a MKIII it takes considerable nose up trim to unload the stick when at take off and cruise power. Anyone who has done long cross country flights knows it is very difficult and uncomfortable to fly with adverse trim. Holding pressure on a stick doesn't take long to take the fun out of flying cross country. I learned a long time ago local flying I seldom noticed a little adverse trim, but on a cross country it didn't take long to realize it when my arm got tired.

Wish my buddy John Williamson was still here. When John flew off his 40 hours he actually used weights to go beyond forward and aft cg limits. I remember him telling me the only way he could get out of a stall on his last aft cg test was full power. If he had lost power he would have busted his ass. He also added weight incrementally to the nose until the Kolbra wouldn't take off. I don't have his numbers and have no idea if they still exist.

BB still has an unidentified problem if his FS2 only flies 40-45 mph at the rpm he stated in a previous msg, I think he said 5200 to 5300 rpm.

In addition, he should not have to raise the horz stab above what the plans and building instructions state.

Keep looking until you find your problem.

BB still hasn't explored the possibility his ailerons may be set too high. In flight those ailerons naturally want to droop a little. If it was my airplane and my problem, I would have already experimented with the ailerons and got off this nonsense of inboard wing stall first. But it ain't my airplane and I haven't seen it or flown it.

When one thinks of all the Kolbs out there flying with no problems, makes me wonder what the Hell is wrong with BB's Kolb to make it act like it does, whatever that is. I don't have a clue.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Bill,

I had a little problem visualizing your description but as I understand it your Center Gap Cover is complete on the bottom and only about half on the top. This is exactly opposite of what the factory shows in the plans (at least for the Firefly). Take a look here: http://harnerfarm.net/serenity/assembly.html about half way down the page you will see a front view of the center wing gap seal. I don't have it on the website but I do have a photo of the top of this seal in flight and it is bowed upward quite a lot so there is a lot of air pressure in that area.

If I understand it right, you basically have a hole in the top of your wing from just aft of the thickest part all the way back to the engine. Even though the air can't flow through because of the covering on the bottom side it would seem that this will cause a lot of turbulence and drag just ahead of the engine.

I don't know if that will cause a nose up condition but I am betting it is causing a loss of airspeed and all power settings.

Let me know if you would like to see the back side of the center wing cover and I will post one to my web site so it doesn't take up space on the list.

Also, I do not know if you have the gap seal between the wing and the aileron. I used the Kolb supplied 3M Clear Book Binding Tape that came with the kit. Others just go ahead and use covering fabric and paint accordingly. To me this was easier. I did not put any on the elevator gap but may try it some time. I do know a lot of people say that the plane handles so much better with the aileron gap seals installed. If you don't have them, this could be a contributing factor to at least the aileron "heaviness" that you describe as well as adding to the overall drag.

Side note: I don't think anyone said you HAD to use the main gear as a datum point, just that it was easy. I like using the tip of the nose, keeps all the numbers on the same side of the equation. You can simply put a mark on the floor and use that if you wish. However I don't think you have a calculation problem. There may be a CG problem but unfortunately you can't know that for sure without doing the calculations. From all of your posts I don't think you need instructions on how to do it but I do think that the behavior of the airplane calls for a re-do just for process of elimination if nothing else. You would be surprised at the number of people that get stymied by W&B. I think most of them get hung up at + and - numbers caused by the datum not being at the front of the aircraft. But that is my WAG.

It would be a shame to be chasing rigging problems if in fact there is a balance problem. It could be as simple as a miss-read scale or measurement. Ever transpose two numbers when reading a ruler upside down? Happens to me a lot. What if a 67 became a 76? That would make the CG numbers out of whack! If re-doing the calculations confirms they are accurate, then I would try to double check the source of the numbers on the sheet. "Measure twice, cut once". I have a lot of scraps to prove that old adage!

Keep at it and don't ever stop asking "why?".

Stuart
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:06 pm    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

THANK YOU Stuart ! And thanks to all of the people who are spending their time helping me pull out what little is left of my hair to figure this out.

I have to agree that EVERYTHING up to this stage is pointing toward tail-heaviness. So I am making an arrangement to go through the numbers agaain.

As I said, if the airplane is significantly out of the Kolb-specified range then I will be eating a alot of s**t on the Kolb List ! If it is NOT out of the Kolb CG range then I promise I won't make any one else eat that same s**t because you are all trying to help.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 8/16/18, Stuart Harner <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> wrote:

Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Thursday, August 16, 2018, 2:36 PM


Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net>

Bill,

I had a little problem visualizing your
description but as I understand it your Center Gap Cover is
complete on the bottom and only about half on the top. This
is exactly opposite of what the factory shows in the plans
(at least for the Firefly). Take a look here: http://harnerfarm.net/serenity/assembly.html
about half way down the page you will see a front view
of the center wing gap seal. I don't have it on the website
but I do have a photo of the top of this seal in flight and
it is bowed upward quite a lot so there is a lot of air
pressure in that area.

If I understand it right, you basically
have a hole in the top of your wing from just aft of the
thickest part all the way back to the engine. Even though
the air can't flow through because of the covering on the
bottom side it would seem that this will cause a lot of
turbulence and drag just ahead of the engine.

I don't know if that will cause a nose
up condition but I am betting it is causing a loss of
airspeed and all power settings.

Let me know if you would like to see
the back side of the center wing cover and I will post one
to my web site so it doesn't take up space on the list.

Also, I do not know if you have the gap
seal between the wing and the aileron. I used the Kolb
supplied  3M Clear Book Binding Tape that came with the
kit. Others just go ahead and use covering fabric and paint
accordingly. To me this was easier. I did not put any on the
elevator gap but may try it some time. I do know a lot of
people say that the plane handles so much better with the
aileron gap seals installed. If you don't have them, this
could be a contributing factor to at least the aileron
"heaviness" that you describe as well as adding to the
overall drag.

Side note: I don't think anyone said
you HAD to use the main gear as a datum point, just that it
was easy. I like using the tip of the nose, keeps all the
numbers on the same side of the equation. You can simply put
a mark on the floor and use that if you wish. However I
don't think you have a calculation problem. There may be a
CG problem but unfortunately you can't know that for sure
without doing the calculations. From all of your posts I
don't think you need instructions on how to do it but I do
think that the behavior of the airplane calls for a re-do
just for process of elimination if nothing else. You would
be surprised at the number of people that get stymied by
W&B.  I think most of them get hung up at + and -
numbers caused by the datum not being at the front of the
aircraft. But that is my WAG.

It would be a shame to be chasing
rigging problems if in fact there is a balance problem. It
could be as simple as a miss-read scale or measurement. Ever
transpose two numbers when reading a ruler upside down?
Happens to me a lot. What if a 67 became a 76? That would
make the CG numbers out of whack! If re-doing the
calculations confirms they are accurate, then I would try to
double check the source of the numbers on the sheet.
"Measure twice, cut once". I have a lot of scraps to prove
that old adage!

Keep at it and don't ever stop asking
"why?".

Stuart


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rlaird



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 363
Location: Houston

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

"Eating crow" would have been a bit more poetic (you know, with the reference to a bird)!  Wink

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 6:07 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

THANK YOU Stuart ! And thanks to all of the people who are spending their time helping me pull out what little is left of my hair to figure this out.

I have to agree that EVERYTHING up to this stage is pointing toward tail-heaviness. So I am making an arrangement to go through the numbers agaain.

As I said, if the airplane is significantly out of the Kolb-specified range then I will be eating a alot of s**t on the Kolb List ! If it is NOT out of the Kolb CG range then I promise I won't make any one else eat that same s**t because you are all trying to help.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 8/16/18, Stuart Harner <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net (stuart(at)harnerfarm.net)> wrote:

 Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle
 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
 Date: Thursday, August 16, 2018, 2:36 PM

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Stuart
 Harner" <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net (stuart(at)harnerfarm.net)>

 Bill,

 I had a little problem visualizing your
 description but as I understand it your Center Gap Cover is
 complete on the bottom and only about half on the top. This
 is exactly opposite of what the factory shows in the plans
 (at least for the Firefly). Take a look here: http://harnerfarm.net/serenity/assembly.html
 about half way down the page you will see a front view
 of the center wing gap seal. I don't have it on the website
 but I do have a photo of the top of this seal in flight and
 it is bowed upward quite a lot so there is a lot of air
 pressure in that area.

 If I understand it right, you basically
 have a hole in the top of your wing from just aft of the
 thickest part all the way back to the engine. Even though
 the air can't flow through because of the covering on the
 bottom side it would seem that this will cause a lot of
 turbulence and drag just ahead of the engine.

 I don't know if that will cause a nose
 up condition but I am betting it is causing a loss of
 airspeed and all power settings.

 Let me know if you would like to see
 the back side of the center wing cover and I will post one
 to my web site so it doesn't take up space on the list.

 Also, I do not know if you have the gap
 seal between the wing and the aileron. I used the Kolb
 supplied  3M Clear Book Binding Tape that came with the
 kit. Others just go ahead and use covering fabric and paint
 accordingly. To me this was easier. I did not put any on the
 elevator gap but may try it some time. I do know a lot of
 people say that the plane handles so much better with the
 aileron gap seals installed. If you don't have them, this
 could be a contributing factor to at least the aileron
 "heaviness" that you describe as well as adding to the
 overall drag.

 Side note: I don't think anyone said
 you HAD to use the main gear as a datum point, just that it
 was easy. I like using the tip of the nose, keeps all the
 numbers on the same side of the equation. You can simply put
 a mark on the floor and use that if you wish. However I
 don't think you have a calculation problem. There may be a
 CG problem but unfortunately you can't know that for sure
 without doing the calculations. From all of your posts I
 don't think you need instructions on how to do it but I do
 think that the behavior of the airplane calls for a re-do
 just for process of elimination if nothing else. You would
 be surprised at the number of people that get stymied by
 W&B.  I think most of them get hung up at + and -
 numbers caused by the datum not being at the front of the
 aircraft. But that is my WAG.

 It would be a shame to be chasing
 rigging problems if in fact there is a balance problem. It
 could be as simple as a miss-read scale or measurement. Ever
 transpose two numbers when reading a ruler upside down?
 Happens to me a lot. What if a 67 became a 76? That would
 make the CG numbers out of whack! If re-doing the
 calculations confirms they are accurate, then I would try to
 double check the source of the numbers on the sheet.
 "Measure twice, cut once". I have a lot of scraps to prove
 that old adage!

 Keep at it and don't ever stop asking
 "why?".

 Stuart


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Jerry-TS-MkII



Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 43
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

I came across a very handy tool.. thought I would share it. And actually I would love to hear the results from anyone with a flying Kolb, if they plug in the numbers.

It's handy for weight and balance, but also evaluates stability and other factors.

https://chrusion.com/BJ7/SuperCalc7.html

Jerry
TS MK II


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Richard Pike



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1519
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote:
To answer the recent questions...

I do have 3/4 of a gap seal between the wings. What I mean by that is that I have an aluminum "airfoil" shaped leading edgee piece that slides on from the front,a nd extends back to just behind the thickest part of the wing. This aluminum piece ends right at where the main spar pins are installed. THEN I have a fabric cover that Velcro's btween the wings from there to the rear carry-through where the wing fold U-joints are. The front of this fabric cover overlaps and Velcro's to the back of the aluminum piece. So there is not a huge hole where the air can flow upward between the wings. But there is nothing on the TOP of the wing behind the aluminum leading edge fairing and in front of the engine. Maybe 18 inches of wing chord with no cover on the TOP. All of the gap on the bottom is covered back to the wing fold U-joints.
Bill Berle


I think we may have found the problem: you have replaced the normal gap seal - a KFM-1 airfoil - with what is in effect a modified KFM-2 airfoil. Kline-Fogelman airfoils are know to have high drag. This would explain your inability to go very fast. Since the normal Kolb center section underside is full of tubes and stuff, turbulence associatd with the windshield, pilot's head, etc the normal high drag associated with the KFM-1 airfoil is not so evident, but with yours being a modified KFM-2 center section, and the upperside being comparitively less cluttered, the drag is more pronounced.

Picture the gap seal fabric bulging up in flight under load: your modified KFM2 airfoil is doing something that the normal Kolb center section does not do. With the normal Kolb KFM-1 airfoil, the fabric bulges up in flight on the top, but you have a KFM-2 airfoil on your center section and now when the fabric is bulging up in flight it bulges from the bottom - who knows what that does to the distribution of lift?

I suggest going to a normal type of center section. There is a typical one on pages 30-34 of "The Yellow Book"; here: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html

For more information on the Kline-Fogelman airfoil; here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kline%E2%80%93Fogleman_airfoil


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Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Repairing the fiberglass nose bowl. Ugh.)
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Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
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Rex Rodebush



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Don't worry about anyone giving you s_ _ t when you find your problem. It could be caused by a half dozen things or a combination of them. You are logically working through the possible causes and that's all anyone can ask. No one has a crystal ball, only ideas and suggestions.

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Frankd



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Hi Bill/Kolbers,

I am happy you have had more successful flights, even tho everyone thinks something is still wrong with your stab angle.

IF the CG is OK, the wing incidence is good to the motor mount, your tube is the correct length and the stabilizer angle is correct to the wing, then the only thing I can think of is that the angle of your tail tube could be off.

If you lower that angle towards the rear, you will have to reset your stabilizer angle back to where everyone thinks it should be. Worth checking it out?

I try to fly my MkIII Xtra at 60MPH and above. gap seals and a windshield will help but if your tube is set wrong that would certainly slow you down as well. I would be very nervous if I could only get 55MPH.

Keep that airspeed up lest the ground rise up and smith ye..
We all want you to have a safe plane and fly for a long time.

(Thanks Richard for the resize app. )

My 2 cents

FrankD
1014S.

Do not archive


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Is the tail boom adjustable?

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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Richard Pike



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

John Hauck wrote:
Is the tail boom adjustable?

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama

--


Well, it sorta is - but then the airplane becomes even more difficult to trim... <Grin>


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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Repairing the fiberglass nose bowl. Ugh.)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:30 pm    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Richard P had me scratching my head until I saw the attachment. I hadn't
thought about that particular adjuster. Wink Good comment. Goes well with
the photo.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

We are trying to arrange a second weight and balance to be done Monday. All evidence points to the airplane being tail heavy, as so many Kolbers have mentioned since the beginning.

John H thank you for taking time to talk to me yesterday. I will be incorporating some or all of your ideas, but I do need to make sure I am not flying a dangerously tail heavy airplane regardless of the aileron adjustment. But after speaking with you I am confident I can slightly lower the ailerons without a safety risk.
Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T

Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:

Quote:

John Hauck wrote:
> Is the tail boom adjustable?
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> --
Well, it sorta is - but then the airplane gets even more difficult to trim...

--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482500#482500


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:58 am    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Just finished a 30 minute test flight. Aircraft improved by both the tape seal on the aileron gap and the trim tabs on elevator. Hands off at 40 mph at 4750-4800 rpm. 48-50 mph at 5300-5400 rpm with very light forward pressure on stick. Rudder trim for some reason was better than last flight even with no change. Still need a small additional bend in rudder trim tab. This flight was still WITH the raised stabilizer angle, but with the addition of the elevator trim tab.

Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T

Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:

Quote:

John Hauck wrote:
> Is the tail boom adjustable?
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> --
Well, it sorta is - but then the airplane gets even more difficult to trim...

--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482500#482500


Attachments:

http://forums.matronics.com//files/outoftrim_133.jpeg


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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

Sounds like you’re making some positive progress,Bill. Those aileron gap seals make a big difference. Both in speed and handling.
George H.
Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Aug 18, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Bill <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



Just finished a 30 minute test flight. Aircraft improved by both the tape seal on the aileron gap and the trim tabs on elevator. Hands off at 40 mph at 4750-4800 rpm. 48-50 mph at 5300-5400 rpm with very light forward pressure on stick. Rudder trim for some reason was better than last flight even with no change. Still need a small additional bend in rudder trim tab. This flight was still WITH the raised stabilizer angle, but with the addition of the elevator trim tab.

Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T

Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:

>
>
>
> John Hauck wrote:
>> Is the tail boom adjustable?
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>> --
>
>
> Well, it sorta is - but then the airplane gets even more difficult to trim...
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482500#482500
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/outoftrim_133.jpeg
>
>
>
>
>
>






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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

If it was me, I'd experiment with the horz stab in the normal position and go to larger elevator trim tabs and play with the angle of the tab.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama

--


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Titus, Alabama
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lcottrell



Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1392
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 8:57 AM, Bill <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

Just finished a 30 minute test flight. Aircraft improved by both the tape seal on the aileron gap and the trim tabs on elevator. Hands off at 40 mph at 4750-4800 rpm. 48-50 mph at 5300-5400 rpm with very light forward pressure on stick. Rudder trim  for some reason was better than last flight even with no change. Still need a small additional bend in rudder trim tab. This flight was still WITH the raised stabilizer angle, but with the addition of the elevator trim tab.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I believe that I mentioned before that without an adjustable trim tab, your only option is to trim for what you consider "cruise" RPM's. Mine is 5400. That gives me the most speed for the least amount of gas expended. When I increase the RPM's it begins to climb, which is the proper function of power anyway. 
I went over to the ranch to check for stuck cows in the pothole field, and I was in a hurry, so I was turning around 5800 (max continued power) and of course the plane was climbing at about 300 fpm and I had to use a lot of forward pressure on the stick to try to keep at the altitude that I wanted to fly. It came to mind that this could possibly be what you are talking about as a problem? I had never paid attention before because it is just the way that Kolbs fly. Is it possible that you are expecting your kolb to fly like a 172, cause it "ain't gonna happen". In essence it could be possible that some of the things that are worrying you, could just be the normal reaction of the aircraft that you are flying.  Now I know that you might be a bit delicate, but none of this is intended to insult you. 
Larry 

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.


If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.


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Rex Rodebush



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: Branson West area, Missouri

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Reply with quote

When you get your weights it might not be a bad idea to pick two different datum's and run the numbers as a check. The CG should be the same.

Also, gap seals between the horiz. stab. and elevator might be worthwhile.


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