 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:58 pm Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
 |
|
Hello aeroelectric list,
My friend has a Searey with a Rotax 914. He's currently AOG with a non charging electrical system. I don't know the Rotax electrical system at all but the battery is an Odyssey in apparently good shape. System voltage reads between 11.8 and 11.6 with engine running depending on what loads are turned on. Increasing engine RPM has no effect on voltage. That's all the info we have right now.
Would someone who knows this system please get in touch to help diagnose the problem and suggest a proper fix?
Thank you.
Sebastien
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1944
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
The most likely problem is the voltage regulator.
Read this thread, especially post number 6 by Mike Miller.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=80487
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
Joe Gores |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 429
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:56 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Joe,
Regarding the link you posted on Van's, it ends with the following statement:
"Installing a higher output (non Rotax) regulator may shift the next failure to another component, maybe the alternator $tator coil$."
I don't understand how this could be. I thought that the output (low, medium, high, etc) was determined by the dynamo, and that the regulator-rectifier merely took what it was given and transformed it (regulate) into what the 12v system needs. I further thought that adding a regulator capable of handling higher output would simply mean that the regulator would be stressed more lightly. Do you agree with the poster's statement? I am interested because I replaced the "Rotax regulator" (actually Ducati) with the Silent Hektik.
Ken
On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 6:11 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
The most likely problem is the voltage regulator.
Read this thread, especially post number 6 by Mike Miller.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=80487
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480762#480762
===========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
At 09:54 AM 6/10/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | Joe,
Regarding the link you posted on Van's, it ends with the following statement:
"Installing a higher output (non Rotax) regulator may shift the next failure to another component, maybe the alternator $tator coil$."
I don't understand how this could be. I thought that the output (low, medium, high, etc) was determined by the dynamo, and that the regulator-rectifier merely took what it was given and transformed it (regulate) into what the 12v system needs. I further thought that adding a regulator capable of handling higher output would simply mean that the regulator would be stressed more lightly. Do you agree with the poster's statement? I am interested because I replaced the "Rotax regulator" (actually Ducati) with the Silent Hektik.
Ken |
It kind of depends on the cause for original failure.
The PM/RR power systems are not as gently current
limited as their wound-field cousins on cars. Further,
the PM alternators are not as easily cooled . . . they
tend to be tightly enclosed with respect to air movement.
The Rectifier/Regulator products) for which I'm privy
to schematics) do not include electronically derived
current limiting.
Given these two conditions, both the alternator
and rectifier regulator are subject to the effects
of over heat brought on by sustained overloading.
Overloaded operations can be realized by any
combination of system loads and battery
recharging loads. Assuming that the designer
has not inadvertently expected too much from
the alternator to run electrowhizzies, then
battery recharge demands from a badly dischared
battery might just stack on top of each other
for an interval long enough to smoke something.
The Ducatti rectifier-regulator supplied with
Rotax 9xx engines has been notoriously weak in
the knees. There have been numerous rectifier-
regulators with more robust designs, Silent
Hektik being a noteworthy example.
The statement in question has some validity
in that a builder that has suffered multiple
Ductatti failures may indeed suffer alternator
failures after upgrading the rectifier-regulator.
This is because failures due to persistent overloading
will open the weakest link in the chain . . . in
the original case, a Ducatti R-R. Beef up that
link and a different link may become vulnerable.
The prophylactic against such failures is
crew implementation of current limiting with
the aid of an alternator loadmeter.
[img]cid:.0[/img]
I've got a couple dozen of these instruments left over
from the AEC9007 days. These can be paired with an appropriate
shunt to show read time loads on the PM/RR system.
[img]cid:.1[/img]
Sort term operations at or above 100 percent would
be okay, like to recharge a battery that has started
the engine and then supported electrowhizzies out to
the departure runway.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
108.44 KB |
| Viewed: |
20108 Time(s) |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
223.33 KB |
| Viewed: |
20108 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1944
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Ken,
While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do disagree with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can damage alternator windings. But the total current is determined by the load, not by the regulator. I do not think that the Silent Hektik regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap John Deere regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8" aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate. A thermocouple attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157 degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
Joe Gores |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:34 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
| Quote: |
Sort term operations at or above 100 percent would
be okay, like to recharge a battery that has started
the engine and then supported electrowhizzies out to
the departure runway. |
I was remiss in the omission of a second
prophylactic which is load analysis confirmed
by experience which shows the PM/RR system is not
going to be overtaxed by predicted, normal
operations. If you have verified that normal
ops loads are within system ratings, then
failures can be assumed to be caused by
abnormal conditions like lack of regulator
robustness, attempting to recharge a really
depleted battery during flight ops, shorted
cell in battery, etc.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Joe, do you have a part number for the John Deere regulator that will replace the Ducati?
Thank you
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Ken,
While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do disagree with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can damage alternator windings. But the total current is determined by the load, not by the regulator. I do not think that the Silent Hektik regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap John Deere regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8" aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate. A thermocouple attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157 degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480768#480768
====================================
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:39 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Just looking at the Silent Hektik website and it seems to say that it regulates between 13 and 14.2 V. Wouldn't this be totally inappropriate (way too low) for lead acid and especially AGM batteries? Or can it be set anywhere from 13 to 14.2? 14.2 still wouldn't be ideal for Odyssey but it is within their specs.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 09:54 AM 6/10/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | Joe,
Regarding the link you posted on Van's, it ends with the following statement:
"Installing a higher output (non Rotax) regulator may shift the next failure to another component, maybe the alternator $tator coil$."
I don't understand how this could be. I thought that the output (low, medium, high, etc) was determined by the dynamo, and that the regulator-rectifier merely took what it was given and transformed it (regulate) into what the 12v system needs. I further thought that adding a regulator capable of handling higher output would simply mean that the regulator would be stressed more lightly. Do you agree with the poster's statement? I am interested because I replaced the "Rotax regulator" (actually Ducati) with the Silent Hektik.
Ken |
It kind of depends on the cause for original failure.
The PM/RR power systems are not as gently current
limited as their wound-field cousins on cars. Further,
the PM alternators are not as easily cooled . . . they
tend to be tightly enclosed with respect to air movement.
The Rectifier/Regulator products) for which I'm privy
to schematics) do not include electronically derived
current limiting.
Given these two conditions, both the alternator
and rectifier regulator are subject to the effects
of over heat brought on by sustained overloading.
Overloaded operations can be realized by any
combination of system loads and battery
recharging loads. Assuming that the designer
has not inadvertently expected too much from
the alternator to run electrowhizzies, then
battery recharge demands from a badly dischared
battery might just stack on top of each other
for an interval long enough to smoke something.
The Ducatti rectifier-regulator supplied with
Rotax 9xx engines has been notoriously weak in
the knees. There have been numerous rectifier-
regulators with more robust designs, Silent
Hektik being a noteworthy example.
The statement in question has some validity
in that a builder that has suffered multiple
Ductatti failures may indeed suffer alternator
failures after upgrading the rectifier-regulator.
This is because failures due to persistent overloading
will open the weakest link in the chain . . . in
the original case, a Ducatti R-R. Beef up that
link and a different link may become vulnerable.
The prophylactic against such failures is
crew implementation of current limiting with
the aid of an alternator loadmeter.
[img]cid:.0[/img]
I've got a couple dozen of these instruments left over
from the AEC9007 days. These can be paired with an appropriate
shunt to show read time loads on the PM/RR system.
[img]cid:.1[/img]
Sort term operations at or above 100 percent would
be okay, like to recharge a battery that has started
the engine and then supported electrowhizzies out to
the departure runway.
Bob . . .
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
108.44 KB |
| Viewed: |
20102 Time(s) |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
223.33 KB |
| Viewed: |
20102 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 429
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:46 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Thx Bob and Joe.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:35 AM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Joe, do you have a part number for the John Deere regulator that will replace the Ducati?
Thank you
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Ken,
While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do disagree with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can damage alternator windings. But the total current is determined by the load, not by the regulator. I do not think that the Silent Hektik regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap John Deere regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8" aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate. A thermocouple attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157 degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480768#480768
===========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:00 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
If it's the easy failure then great but I really don't know how to tell the difference between a gen failure and a regulator failure. My regulator is $12 so I keep a spare and would just swap that out. I guess your first line of attack should be as you said: inspect all the wiring you can find for an obvious break / bad ground / short / loose connector / unplugged wire. Give each PIDG connector a strong pull to see if it comes apart. You should be able to hold the connector in one hand and pull the other wire pretty much as hard as you can (it should support a 50 pound pull no problem).
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Thx Bob and Joe.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:35 AM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Joe, do you have a part number for the John Deere regulator that will replace the Ducati?
Thank you
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Ken,
While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do disagree with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can damage alternator windings. But the total current is determined by the load, not by the regulator. I do not think that the Silent Hektik regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap John Deere regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8" aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate. A thermocouple attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157 degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480768#480768
===========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:02 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Whoops, sorry all, wrong address for the last email.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | If it's the easy failure then great but I really don't know how to tell the difference between a gen failure and a regulator failure. My regulator is $12 so I keep a spare and would just swap that out. I guess your first line of attack should be as you said: inspect all the wiring you can find for an obvious break / bad ground / short / loose connector / unplugged wire. Give each PIDG connector a strong pull to see if it comes apart. You should be able to hold the connector in one hand and pull the other wire pretty much as hard as you can (it should support a 50 pound pull no problem).
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Thx Bob and Joe.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:35 AM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Joe, do you have a part number for the John Deere regulator that will replace the Ducati?
Thank you
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Ken,
While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do disagree with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can damage alternator windings. But the total current is determined by the load, not by the regulator. I do not think that the Silent Hektik regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap John Deere regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8" aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate. A thermocouple attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157 degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480768#480768
===========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
|
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:48 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
At 01:01 PM 6/10/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | Whoops, sorry all, wrong address for the last email.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
If it's the easy failure then great but I really don't know how to tell the difference between a gen failure and a regulator failure. My regulator is $12 so I keep a spare and would just swap that out. I guess your first line of attack should be as you said: inspect all the wiring you can find for an obvious break / bad ground / short / loose connector / unplugged wire. Give each PIDG connector a strong pull to see if it comes apart. You should be able to hold the connector in one hand and pull the other wire pretty much as hard as you can (it should support a 50 pound pull no problem). |
the fist like of attack in any failure resolution
is to make measurements. In the case of PM alternator
rectifier-regulator systems, we know that the output
of the alternator is an AC voltage that is proportional
to engine RPM. We also know that the device is electrically
simple . . . an array of windings of wire on a stator.
No brushes.
So to start with, get out an ohmmeter and look
at the resistance of the windings. Make a measurement
between the two or three wires that come out of the
device. The readings will be quite low . . . under
one ohm. His is where a low resistance ohmmeter
described in the 'Connection and discussed on
these pages would be handy.
The resistance between any two wires of a three
phase alternator should be nearly identical.
Variations between pairs suggests shorted turns
on the stator windings. If the alternator is
a single phase, then the ohmmeter test only
tells you that there is continuity . . . shorted
turns would be revealed only by knowing what
the resistance of the new, undamaged coil.
Then measure from the windings to engine
crankcase. This reading should always be
'infinite' . . . meaning that it's too high
for your instrument to measure. Usually
in excess of 20,000,000 ohms.
You could make an AC measurement of voltage at
the output wires with the engine running.
Idle RPM is fine. Knowing what the voltage is
for a new, known good alternator is a handy
thing to know.
Assuming all the above produces no hint
of a fault, then the only thing left is the
rectifier-regulator. We know that the Ducatti
product is not robust. For a solid state
device not to operate for the lifetime of the
airplane is a pretty rare condition in the
automotive world. The thing has a poor demonstrated
track record in aviation . . . no doubt similarly
poor in the motorcycle world from which I think
it hails.
There are dozens of PMA/RR systems on various
sport and utility vehicles where the RR is
no doubt beefier than the Rotax Ducatti offering.
You are at little risk for trying one of them . . .
A John Deere product has been mentioned. I think
it's similar to the device favored by the Corvair
conversions crowd . . . there's a 30A PMA/RR
system they favor.
The most common problem with the constellation
of off the shelf RR products is lack of adjustability
for regulation set point. Listers have complained
about the less than ideal charging voltage offered
by various 'bricks' with no adjusting screws.
The core principals for evaluating normal
performance and/or trouble shooting are MEASUREMENTS.
Lord Kelvin once opined: "I often say that when you can
measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers,
you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it,
when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of
a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of
knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced
to the stage of science, whatever the matter may be."
Having the tools with which to explore 'the numbers'
in a system that functions well are keys to discovering
how to make it work better . . . or to repair the
thing when it quits. As the honorable Lord Kelvin
suggests, the numbers are foundations for understanding
how things work.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:51 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Thank you for the reply Bob. I thought that the normal Rotax system was a generator, not an alternator. Is this correct?
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 1:53 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 01:01 PM 6/10/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | Whoops, sorry all, wrong address for the last email.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
|
If it's the easy failure then great but I really don't know how to tell the difference between a gen failure and a regulator failure. My regulator is $12 so I keep a spare and would just swap that out. I guess your first line of attack should be as you said: inspect all the wiring you can find for an obvious break / bad ground / short / loose connector / unplugged wire. Give each PIDG connector a strong pull to see if it comes apart. You should be able to hold the connector in one hand and pull the other wire pretty much as hard as you can (it should support a 50 pound pull no problem).
the fist like of attack in any failure resolution
is to make measurements. In the case of PM alternator
rectifier-regulator systems, we know that the output
of the alternator is an AC voltage that is proportional
to engine RPM. We also know that the device is electrically
simple . . . an array of windings of wire on a stator.
No brushes.
So to start with, get out an ohmmeter and look
at the resistance of the windings. Make a measurement
between the two or three wires that come out of the
device. The readings will be quite low . . . under
one ohm. His is where a low resistance ohmmeter
described in the 'Connection and discussed on
these pages would be handy.
The resistance between any two wires of a three
phase alternator should be nearly identical.
Variations between pairs suggests shorted turns
on the stator windings. If the alternator is
a single phase, then the ohmmeter test only
tells you that there is continuity . . . shorted
turns would be revealed only by knowing what
the resistance of the new, undamaged coil.
Then measure from the windings to engine
crankcase. This reading should always be
'infinite' . . . meaning that it's too high
for your instrument to measure. Usually
in excess of 20,000,000 ohms.
You could make an AC measurement of voltage at
the output wires with the engine running.
Idle RPM is fine. Knowing what the voltage is
for a new, known good alternator is a handy
thing to know.
Assuming all the above produces no hint
of a fault, then the only thing left is the
rectifier-regulator. We know that the Ducatti
product is not robust. For a solid state
device not to operate for the lifetime of the
airplane is a pretty rare condition in the
automotive world. The thing has a poor demonstrated
track record in aviation . . . no doubt similarly
poor in the motorcycle world from which I think
it hails.
There are dozens of PMA/RR systems on various
sport and utility vehicles where the RR is
no doubt beefier than the Rotax Ducatti offering.
You are at little risk for trying one of them . . .
A John Deere product has been mentioned. I think
it's similar to the device favored by the Corvair
conversions crowd . . . there's a 30A PMA/RR
system they favor.
The most common problem with the constellation
of off the shelf RR products is lack of adjustability
for regulation set point. Listers have complained
about the less than ideal charging voltage offered
by various 'bricks' with no adjusting screws.
The core principals for evaluating normal
performance and/or trouble shooting are MEASUREMENTS.
Lord Kelvin once opined: "I often say that when you can
measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers,
you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it,
when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of
a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of
knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced
to the stage of science, whatever the matter may be."
Having the tools with which to explore 'the numbers'
in a system that functions well are keys to discovering
how to make it work better . . . or to repair the
thing when it quits. As the honorable Lord Kelvin
suggests, the numbers are foundations for understanding
how things work.
Bob . . .
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1944
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
It seems that generator, alternator, and dynamo have all been used interchangeably. I prefer to use dynamo. Rotax literature calls it a generator. Many Americans call it an alternator. The important thing is to understand how it works. Permanent magnets attached to a spinning engine flywheel move past stationary coils of wire resulting in induced alternating current.
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
Joe Gores |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:22 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Oh, well that explains a lot. I thought it was a "generator" with brushes making DC current.
Thank you Joe. Any luck on a part number or a way to determine an appropriate John Deere regulator?
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:24 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
It seems that generator, alternator, and dynamo have all been used interchangeably. I prefer to use dynamo. Rotax literature calls it a generator. Many Americans call it an alternator. The important thing is to understand how it works. Permanent magnets attached to a spinning engine flywheel move past stationary coils of wire resulting in induced alternating current.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480790#480790
====================================
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:04 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
At 11:21 AM 6/11/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | | Oh, well that explains a lot. I thought it was a "generator" with brushes making DC current. |
The only place brushed generators are used these
days is on turbine engines where the motor that
starts the engine becomes a generator when the
engine is running.
If it's a piston engine, the power source will
be some form of alternator. When the alternator
is built into the engine, it will generally be
a Permanent Magnet device. On the 912/914 Rotax
engines . . .
[img]cid:.0[/img]
A stator assembly (9) carries the power generation
windings along with special coils that power dual
ignition system. These windings are 'charged' by
magnets in a flywheel hub (1 on the crankshaft.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
103.68 KB |
| Viewed: |
19997 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:13 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
A DC Generator uses SLIP-RINGS.
A AC Generator uses a COMMUTATOR.
BRUSHES are used on both applications.
A ALTERNATOR develops AC and then it is RECTIFIED to DC using Diodes.
Why? Because it is more efficient and cost wise more practical to create AC an rectify it to DC.
There are way too many definitions of a DYNOMOTOR.
Some were mechanically driven.
Some were electrically driven.
Some were driven at 400 Hz with a DC output.
Some used a Mechanical Multi-vibrator to produce AC to drive it and then it had a DC output via Slip-Rings.
Today the term has changed to include DYNAMETER aka DYNO which are used to determine Horse Power.
Barry
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 12:21 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Oh, well that explains a lot. I thought it was a "generator" with brushes making DC current.
Thank you Joe. Any luck on a part number or a way to determine an appropriate John Deere regulator?
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:24 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
It seems that generator, alternator, and dynamo have all been used interchangeably. I prefer to use dynamo. Rotax literature calls it a generator. Many Americans call it an alternator. The important thing is to understand how it works. Permanent magnets attached to a spinning engine flywheel move past stationary coils of wire resulting in induced alternating current.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480790#480790
===========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1944
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Search eBay for AM101406 or MIA881279
Chances are that the $20 ones are the same as the more expensive ones.
Note that the terminals are arraigned in a different order than the Ducati. The mounting holes are also spaced differently. Be sure to use heat conductive grease on the mounting base to carry heat away.
| Quote: | | Any luck on a part number or a way to determine an appropriate John Deere regulator? |
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
_________________
Joe Gores |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cluros(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:28 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
Thank you Joe and thank you all. I think we now have a good plan for tackling this problem.
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:15 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
Search eBay for AM101406 or MIA881279
Chances are that the $20 ones are the same as the more expensive ones.
Note that the terminals are arraigned in a different order than the Ducati. The mounting holes are also spaced differently. Be sure to use heat conductive grease on the mounting base to carry heat away.
> Any luck on a part number or a way to determine an appropriate John Deere regulator?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480794#480794
====================================
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
retasker
Joined: 31 Dec 2016
Posts: 7
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:57 am Post subject: Rotax Charging System |
|
|
When talking about automotive or aviation devices, it is the AC generator (alternator) that uses slip rings and a DC generator that uses a commutator. The AC generator creates DC with diodes. A DC
generator creates DC using the commutator to feed the same polarity to the output as the rotor rotates.
Dick Tasker
FLYaDIVE wrote:
| Quote: | A DC Generator uses SLIP-RINGS.
A AC Generator uses a COMMUTATOR.
BRUSHES are used on both applications.
A ALTERNATOR develops AC and then it is RECTIFIED to DC using Diodes.
Why? Because it is more efficient and cost wise more practical to create AC an rectify it to DC.
There are way too many definitions of a DYNOMOTOR.
Some were mechanically driven.
Some were electrically driven.
Some were driven at 400 Hz with a DC output.
Some used a Mechanical Multi-vibrator to produce AC to drive it and then it had a DC output via Slip-Rings.
Today the term has changed to include DYNAMETER aka DYNO which are used to determine Horse Power.
Barry
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 12:21 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com <mailto:cluros(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
Oh, well that explains a lot. I thought it was a "generator" with brushes making DC current.
Thank you Joe. Any luck on a part number or a way to determine an appropriate John Deere regulator?
On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 8:24 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com <mailto:fransew(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
It seems that generator, alternator, and dynamo have all been used interchangeably. I prefer to use dynamo. Rotax literature calls it a generator. Many Americans call it an alternator.
The important thing is to understand how it works. Permanent magnets attached to a spinning engine flywheel move past stationary coils of wire resulting in induced alternating current.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480790#480790 <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480790#480790>
===========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ <http://www.matronics.com/>Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com <http://wiki.matronics.com>
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ <http://www.matronics.com/>contribution
===========
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
