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HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes Reply with quote

Bill
Prop selection and reduction ratios are a tough one. When I installed my redrive VW on my MKIIIC had PowerFin and the redrive manufacture willing to work with me. The redrive guy sent me five different ratios at no cost to me. PowerFin cut my wide cord three blade 72 inch prop down to 71 inch for free. I also had the same engine turning a direct drive 60 inch prop. I got more then twice the thrust and more speed going to a redrive VW. All my VWs turn 3200 RPM at cruise and my redrive ratio is 1.61 giving app 2000 RPM at the prop. What I think I have learned is that the larger the diameter prop you have the more static thrust you will get (until the tips go supersonic) but with the same HP you will have a limit of top speed. I cut my prop from 72" to 71" figuring could  increase the pitch to get more climb and top speed but it didn't work that way I think I lost both speed and climb. So it is a tough issue.
Also if you flip your redrive your center of thrust rises but is it that bad if the tips of you prop are the same distance or less from the boom tube? In one configuration I had a 7"+ clearance for my 72" prop from the boom tube and it was dangerous. Solo it wasn't too bad but with a passenger I couldn't pitch up to get off the ground at full power, running out of runway I pulled power and up I went. Once I got some more airspeed it was OK, but landing was a bit of white knuckle. I got serious and designed prototype for Kolb VW mount.
Not sure this helps but worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 8:37 PM George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)>

Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller? They’ve apparently been out of business for a couple of years. Their reputation seems to be somewhat questionable.
George H
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
>
> I do not have an Ivoprop, I have an Arplast prop from France. I need the Arplast because I need a large blade area (wide chord) to absorb 58HP within a diameter and RPM restriction. I have a 3.47 to 1 gearbox on the engine. The prop RPM is so slow that I need all the area I can get to absorb that power. If I had the 2.58 gearbox I would be able to turn a 64 inch Ivo or Warp Drive prop at higher RPM like most Kolbs.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 11/19/18, Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.ch (Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.ch)> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
> To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 3:26 PM
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by:
> Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.ch (Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.ch)>
>
> Again Bill...do not recall whether you
> have an Ivo prop...Likely you know the diff between ul
> versions and medium ones...I tried to install a three blade
> 60 inch medium on a Firefly only to have it bog down at abt
> 4400 rpms...447 engine..Simply cannot remove enough pitch...
> It could be that a ul prop might work with most of the pitch
> dialed in...definitely would not be ideal however..Herb
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Monday, November 19, 2018 4:58 PM,
> John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
> wrote:
>
>> --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: "John Hauck" jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)
>>
>> Apologize for what?
>>
>> Again....if it was me, I wouldn't
> just try increased propeller pitch to see what
> happens.....I'd try to concentrate on propping the aircraft
> correctly. Do it right and no matter what the results you
> will know it is propped correctly. After getting the prop
> pitch correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check
> that off your list and "really" discover and correct another
> problem. If not....burn it.
>>
>> Did you ever check static thrust
> to see how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
> Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you are
> getting normal power out of your rig. Anyhow...that's the
> way it looks from Gantt International Airport, Titus,
> Alabama.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>> Anyway, I apologize if I created
> abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers.
> I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller
> pitch and see if that makes any significant difference. If
> that doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a
> larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I
> may think about burning it...
>>
>> Bill Berle
>>
>
>
>
> Support Your Lists This Month --
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>     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes Reply with quote

Rick N/Kolbers:

Reminds me of my first take off after I repowered from an 80 to a 100 hp 912.  Normally, I'd go full throttle, roll a short ways through 30 mph and ease back on the stick.  That is what I did with my brand new engine, but the MKIII was stuck to the sod.  Coming back further on the stick didn't help.  It was not going to fly.  Instinctively, I slacked off the power a tad and Miss P'fer lifted right off like she was supposed to.  Muscle memory from the 80 was working with the high thrust line increase in pusher power.  Took a little while to adjust to this new behavior, but is a good example of what the big lever up top is doing to the aircraft.  I believe it takes more power in the pusher than in the tractor configuration.  The Ultrastar was more efficient because it was a low pusher.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama



From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 8:42 PM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes


Bill



Prop selection and reduction ratios are a tough one. When I installed my redrive VW on my MKIIIC had PowerFin and the redrive manufacture willing to work with me. The redrive guy sent me five different ratios at no cost to me. PowerFin cut my wide cord three blade 72 inch prop down to 71 inch for free. I also had the same engine turning a direct drive 60 inch prop. I got more then twice the thrust and more speed going to a redrive VW. All my VWs turn 3200 RPM at cruise and my redrive ratio is 1.61 giving app 2000 RPM at the prop. What I think I have learned is that the larger the diameter prop you have the more static thrust you will get (until the tips go supersonic) but with the same HP you will have a limit of top speed. I cut my prop from 72" to 71" figuring could increase the pitch to get more climb and top speed but it didn't work that way I think I lost both speed and climb. So it is a tough issue.



Also if you flip your redrive your center of thrust rises but is it that bad if the tips of you prop are the same distance or less from the boom tube? In one configuration I had a 7"+ clearance for my 72" prop from the boom tube and it was dangerous. Solo it wasn't too bad but with a passenger I couldn't pitch up to get off the ground at full power, running out of runway I pulled power and up I went. Once I got some more airspeed it was OK, but landing was a bit of white knuckle. I got serious and designed prototype for Kolb VW mount.



Not sure this helps but worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC





On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 8:37 PM George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:

--> Kolb-List message posted by: George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)>

Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller? They’ve apparently been out of business for a couple of years. Their reputation seems to be somewhat questionable.
George H
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

I do not have an Ivoprop, I have an Arplast prop from France. I need the Arplast because I need a large blade area (wide chord) to absorb 58HP within a diameter and RPM restriction. I have a 3.47 to 1 gearbox on the engine. The prop RPM is so slow that I need all the area I can get to absorb that power. If I had the 2.58 gearbox I would be able to turn a 64 inch Ivo or Warp Drive prop at higher RPM like most Kolbs.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/19/18, Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.ch (Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.ch)> wrote:

Subject: RE: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Monday, November 19, 2018, 3:26 PM

--> Kolb-List message posted by:
Pfatchantz <Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.ch (Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.ch)>

Again Bill...do not recall whether you
have an Ivo prop...Likely you know the diff between ul
versions and medium ones...I tried to install a three blade
60 inch medium on a Firefly only to have it bog down at abt
4400 rpms...447 engine..Simply cannot remove enough pitch...
It could be that a ul prop might work with most of the pitch
dialed in...definitely would not be ideal however..Herb


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Monday, November 19, 2018 4:58 PM,
John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
wrote:

> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: "John Hauck" jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)
>
> Apologize for what?
>
> Again....if it was me, I wouldn't
just try increased propeller pitch to see what
happens.....I'd try to concentrate on propping the aircraft
correctly. Do it right and no matter what the results you
will know it is propped correctly. After getting the prop
pitch correct, if that doesn't help, at least you can check
that off your list and "really" discover and correct another
problem. If not....burn it.
>
> Did you ever check static thrust
to see how it compares with a Firestar that flies normally?
Takes thrust to push an airplane. I don't think you are
getting normal power out of your rig. Anyhow...that's the
way it looks from Gantt International Airport, Titus,
Alabama.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> Anyway, I apologize if I created
abig mystery that is annoying or perplexing to the Kolbers.
I'm going to try one more flight with increased propeller
pitch and see if that makes any significant difference. If
that doesn't work I will flip the gearbox and borrow a
larger propeller and try that. If that doesn't work THEN I
may think about burning it...
>
> Bill Berle
>



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes Reply with quote

I’m amazed that the Powerfin “B”blade isn’t wide enough for your needs? Or is it that they don’t make a 72”diameter prop? You may have sideline your project until you can afford that new or used gearbox. It seems your choice of engines is the main problem. Actually that’s not really fair. HKS is a good engine. The gearbox is the problem. Larry C.,seems to think your mean problem now is “to much weight.” Pilot+Aircraft.
George H.
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com

Do Not Archive

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Nov 19, 2018, at 9:00 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:






Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller? They’ve apparently been out of
business for a couple of years. Their reputation seems to be somewhat questionable.
------------------

Perhaps some of the Kolb list can suggest the correct propeller, to meet THESE SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS:

1) My engine will only spin the propeller at 1675 RPM at max continuous power (gearbox limit)
2) The propeller diameter has to be 65 inches or less (tail boom interference)
3) The propeller can have only two or three blades (wing fold interference)

I have taken these specific parameters and called the major prop manufacturers... Ivo, Warp, Powerfin, Prince, Ultra-Prop, Whirlwind. Every one of them has said that it will be very difficult to make a lot of thrust at that slow RPM with a 65 inch diameter prop, and all of them said that their prop blades are not wide enough (blade area) for those conditions. They said I would need some other brand of propeller with a very wide blade chord.

So I looked and found that the Arplast company made one style of propeller with very wide chord blades, to use with high gear reduction ratios, in order to make thrust in a smaller diameter with less noise for European noise regulations. I managed to find a used one and buy it,a nd that is the prop onmy airplane now.

So if I am obviously not making enough thrust with this wide-chord Arplast propeller, how am I going to make any more thrust with a propeller that is narrower (less blade choord) in the same diameter? Tell me if I am thinking incorrectly here. I think I need a larger diameter propeller to solve the thrust problem, regardless of what brand of prop I am using.

But if I turn the gearbox around, I can remove the 65 inch diameter limitation, and run a larger prop, then I can run ANY good prop... Ivo, Warp, Powerfin, and probably make a lot more thrust than I am making now.






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mojavjoe



Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes Reply with quote

BILL it's not much more difficult to remove the wings then it is to fold them and I'm sure you could rig up a jig so you could do it quickly and by your self. Then you could have the four blades your gear reduction was designed for.
Joe
Quote:
On November 19, 2018 at 9:00 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:







Well Bill I hope your not looking for another Arplast propeller? They’ve apparently been out of
business for a couple of years. Their reputation seems to be somewhat questionable.
------------------

Perhaps some of the Kolb list can suggest the correct propeller, to meet THESE SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS:

1) My engine will only spin the propeller at 1675 RPM at max continuous power (gearbox limit)
2) The propeller diameter has to be 65 inches or less (tail boom interference)
3) The propeller can have only two or three blades (wing fold interference)

I have taken these specific parameters and called the major prop manufacturers... Ivo, Warp, Powerfin, Prince, Ultra-Prop, Whirlwind. Every one of them has said that it will be very difficult to make a lot of thrust at that slow RPM with a 65 inch diameter prop, and all of them said that their prop blades are not wide enough (blade area) for those conditions. They said I would need some other brand of propeller with a very wide blade chord.

So I looked and found that the Arplast company made one style of propeller with very wide chord blades, to use with high gear reduction ratios, in order to make thrust in a smaller diameter with less noise for European noise regulations. I managed to find a used one and buy it,a nd that is the prop onmy airplane now.

So if I am obviously not making enough thrust with this wide-chord Arplast propeller, how am I going to make any more thrust with a propeller that is narrower (less blade choord) in the same diameter? Tell me if I am thinking incorrectly here. I think I need a larger diameter propeller to solve the thrust problem, regardless of what brand of prop I am using.

But if I turn the gearbox around, I can remove the 65 inch diameter limitation, and run a larger prop, then I can run ANY good prop... Ivo, Warp, Powerfin, and probably make a lot more thrust than I am making now.






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johngilpin



Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 91
Location: 004

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:51 am    Post subject: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes Reply with quote

My FireFly came with a 447 and C-box 3:1 ratio, so the prop was a big three-blade job that wouldn't fit in the trailer. So I just removed the prop each time. Socket in electric drill and torque wrench handy only took a couple of minutes each time. Maybe you could consider a 4-blade used that way....
I did that for quite awhile until I could find a B-box. With 2.58 ratio and two-blade prop it went better but more vibration and noise....
Have you done a good 4-way GPS run to check the ASI?? GPS readings don't have any real value unless you do a complete 360 circuit on a steady day.....


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racerjerry



Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 190
Location: Deer Park, NY

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes Reply with quote

Bill, have you verified ignition timing is correct? That could explain a lot of things.

Also, you were concerned about getting your Firestar up on its nose. The Firestar's main wheels are located well reward as compared to most other taildraggers. I believe this makes the airplane less twitchy; however it can nose over more easily. BUT, the only times I had this happen is when getting stuck in tall grass or mud and trying to power out using the engine to unstick.

For lazy people like me nose bowls and nose art are temporary expendable items.
Jerry King


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes Reply with quote

The timing is electronically controlled by two black boxes, one for each ignition system. No adjustment, no possibility of errors.

My aircraft has significantly longer gear legs than any other Firestar. So because of the mounting angle, this puts the wheels a little further forward than they wouuldotherwise be. It is controllable for someone with previous taildragger experience, but probably not as easy and gentle as the stock Kolb.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 11/20/18, racerjerry <gnking2(at)verizon.net> wrote:

Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018, 10:24 AM


"racerjerry" <gnking2(at)verizon.net>

Bill, have you verified ignition timing
is correct?  That could explain a lot of things.

Also, you were concerned about getting
your Firestar up on its nose.  The Firestar's main
wheels are located well reward as compared to most other
taildraggers.  I believe this makes the airplane less
twitchy; however it can nose over more easily.  BUT,
the only times I had this happen is when getting stuck in
tall grass or mud and trying to power out using the engine
to unstick.

For lazy people like me nose bowls and
nose art are temporary expendable items. 


Jerry King

--------
Jerry King




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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=485356#485356






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Eugene Zimmerman



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 386

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar FLIGHT TEST resumes Reply with quote

Bill,I have a 670 Rotax Rick engine with a 4/1 ratio C box on a Mark 3 Classic. It has a 3 blade 64” Ivo MEDIUM prop. I have derated my 670 by lowering the compression ratio to produce no more than 80hp (at) 6500 rpm. 6500rpm divided by 4 gives me 1625 prop rpm on climb out. I cruise easy (at) 4500-5200 engine rpm, 1125-1300 prop rpm (at) 55-65 MPH

I believe you could get optimum performance from your engine and gear box with an IVO medium prop.
Quote:
On Nov 19, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
I do not have an Ivoprop, I have an Arplast prop from France. I need the Arplast because I need a large blade area (wide chord) to absorb 58HP within a diameter and RPM restriction. I have a 3.47 to 1 gearbox on the engine. The prop RPM is so slow that I need all the area I can get to absorb that power. If I had the 2.58 gearbox I would be able to turn a 64 inch Ivo or Warp Drive prop at higher RPM like most Kolbs.


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