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Help with FS Wing Gap Seal

 
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slingshot003



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 17
Location: FL USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

¬¬¬I purchased a FS KXP which has a permanently mounted lexon gap seal that bolts into place. The builder never unfolded the plane, but I will be. I purchased some clear vinyl & Velcro to make a new gap seal. Presently the leading edge of the wings rest on & nearly touch the hoop that is above the pilot’s head when the pins are in place. Here are my questions:

1) How far back under the wing is the gap seal suppose to go?
2) With the leading edge of wing almost touching the hoop, does the gap seal go under the hoop or is it somehow held in place on top of the hoop & then the wings folded on top of the gap seal? Either way, I am six feet tall & with a helmet, I would be nearly touching it or maybe even slightly above the hoop height. Anyone have this problem?
3) Complicating things, the full length windshield rests on the top front edge of the hoop for support against the wind pressure. It is only secured to the nose cone. This setup may be incompatible with folding the folding wing process. My hoop doesn’t have any of the tabs that allow the windshield side supports which run to the nosecone like many of the Firestars have.
I eventually want to go to a full enclosure for the front. But for now, I would like to just come up with a gap seal that will allow me to fly for awhile. Any suggestions would be appreciated. –Richard Swiderski


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George Alexander



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 236
Location: SW Florida

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

slingshot003 wrote:
¬¬¬I purchased a FS KXP …….

. s . n . i . p .

Here are my questions:

. s . n . i . p .

…... I am six feet tall & with a helmet, I would be nearly touching it or maybe even slightly above the hoop height. Anyone have this problem?

. s . n . i . p .

–Richard Swiderski


Richard: I had an Original FS with an aluminum/polycarbonate gap seal that went a little over a foot back on the bottom side. I am 6' 2+" with a fairly long torso. A friend had a similar situation (not as tall but a longer torso) in his Original FS. I think Dennis Souder came up with a solution (which I copied). Cut a hole in the underside of the gap seal big enough to receive an inverted 10" aluminum pie pan. That was deep enough to give you an additional 1" plus head room. The angled sides of the pie pan didn't offer any significant restriction for head movement.

The best picture I could find is attached. Not very clear but you can see that the top of my helmet is above the bottom surface of the wing.

Good luck!


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rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1359
Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:33 am    Post subject: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

I've attached several pictures of the gap seal/windshield fairing that I built of composites for a MK IIIX. Gives you the general idea of what and how I fit and built it. If you need more I can provide pictures to try and answer questions.

Rick
On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 2:39 PM slingshot003 <i2bxtn(at)gmail.com (i2bxtn(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "slingshot003" <i2bxtn(at)gmail.com (i2bxtn(at)gmail.com)>

¬¬¬I purchased a FS KXP which has a permanently mounted lexon gap seal that bolts into place.  The builder never unfolded the plane, but I will be.  I purchased some clear vinyl & Velcro to make a new gap seal.  Presently the leading edge of the wings rest on & nearly touch the hoop that is above the pilot’s head when the pins are in place.  Here are my questions:

1)      How far back under the wing is the gap seal suppose to go?
2)      With the leading edge of wing almost touching the hoop, does the gap seal go under the hoop or is it somehow held in place on top of the hoop & then the wings folded on top of the gap seal?  Either way, I am six feet tall & with a helmet, I would be nearly touching it or maybe even slightly above the hoop height.   Anyone have this problem?
3)      Complicating things, the full length windshield rests on the top front edge of the hoop for support against the wind pressure.  It is only secured to the nose cone.  This setup may be incompatible with folding the folding wing process.  My hoop doesn’t have any of the tabs that allow the windshield side supports which run to the nosecone like many of the Firestars have.
I eventually want to go to a full enclosure for the front.  But for now, I would like to just come up with a gap seal that will allow me to fly for awhile.  Any suggestions would be appreciated. –Richard Swiderski




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Richard Pike



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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Location: Blountville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

Here are the gap seal plans for the MKIII, the lengths are about the same, obviously the width is different. The gap seal starts on sheet 30.
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html

The idea of riveting an upside down aluminum pan to the underside of the front part sounds really good.

Here is the underside of the front of ours - I am 5' 10" and it is a tight fit with a helmet. W/O the helmet it is a lot easier.


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slingshot003



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
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Location: FL USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal. Do any of you with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you just fold the wings into it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rests on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2". With the center section mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the front of the gap seal & prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin. If the wing is first folded all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shield sticking above he center section hoop blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In order for this to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been put on after the gap seal was installed. Maybe I am missing something here?

I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield flush with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physically attached to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to handle any wind side loads as when crabbing.

I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air. I will do full or semi-full enclosure down the road. Any ideas out there? -Richard Swiderski


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rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:17 pm    Post subject: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

Richard, I don't think you can get there from here. It's just the geometry of the way the wing swings. What you might consider is having the wings butt up against the gap seal rather than having them slide into it. Use some sailplane gap seal tape when the plane is all rigged. That's the solution I used on the Mk IIIX.

Rick
On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:25 PM slingshot003 <i2bxtn(at)gmail.com (i2bxtn(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "slingshot003" <i2bxtn(at)gmail.com (i2bxtn(at)gmail.com)>

Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal.  Do any of you with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you just fold the wings into it?  As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rests on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2".  With the center section mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the front of the gap seal & prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin.  If the wing is first folded all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shield sticking above he center section hoop blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In order for this to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been put on after the gap seal was installed.  Maybe I am missing something here?

I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield flush with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physically attached to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to handle any wind side loads as when crabbing.

I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air.  I will do full or semi-full enclosure down the road.  Any ideas out there? -Richard Swiderski




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185




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http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg



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rascaljohn



Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:01 pm    Post subject: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

The wing’s leading edge has a 1-1/2” tube that extends about 6” past the inboard rib and into the center section leading edge on my fire star llTalking with Kolb they said that the 6” extension was not critical to the wing and could be shortened (or cut flush with the inboard wing rib) to allow easier wing folding.
Call them to verify that fact, I found l
Could fold the wing without shortening. Top section of my center gap seal is non removable and the wing can slowly swing into position
with Velcro strip to seal and prevent chafing. They overlap about 1”

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 22, 2019, at 8:09 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Richard, I don't think you can get there from here. It's just the geometry of the way the wing swings. What you might consider is having the wings butt up against the gap seal rather than having them slide into it. Use some sailplane gap seal tape when the plane is all rigged. That's the solution I used on the Mk IIIX.

Rick
On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:25 PM slingshot003 <i2bxtn(at)gmail.com (i2bxtn(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "slingshot003" <i2bxtn(at)gmail.com (i2bxtn(at)gmail.com)>

Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap seal. Do any of you with a rigid gap seal have it set up so it stays in place & you just fold the wings into it? As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rests on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1 1/2". With the center section mounted, the wing leading edge tubes hit the front of the gap seal & prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin. If the wing is first folded all the way forward & pinned, then the wind shield sticking above he center section hoop blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In order for this to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been put on after the gap seal was installed. Maybe I am missing something here?

I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the wind shield flush with the top of the hoop, but since the wind shield is not physically attached to the hoop (only to the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to handle any wind side loads as when crabbing.

I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the air. I will do full or semi-full enclosure down the road. Any ideas out there? -Richard Swiderski




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185




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http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:13 pm    Post subject: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

I can save somebody a lot of wasted time on this.

I spent MONTHS screwing around trying to build center section fairings and seals that stayed in place as you unfold the wings, hoping to make the wings just seal against the gap seal automatically. I had one that butted up against the wing root ribs, I had one where the wings slid underneath the gap seal, that needed a special "shoehorn" tool to guide the wing under the seal. I modified all of these three or four times, scratched my head and modified some more. I'm not kidding when I say that several months were spent on this, trying to come up with something.

The short answer is that it is a difficult puzzle to solve, because there are several parts or components that physically or geometrically conflict with each other. And then on top of that, the Kolb was designed so that the gap seal is supported by the wings... there is little or no solid structure in the RIGHT place to permanently mount the gap seal forward of the spar carry through.

My installation was further complicated by having a non-standard engine, which had parts and pieces that were shaped differently than the Rotax, including three oil lines that "penetrated" through the gap seal and required delicate cutouts and removable pieces.

So affter all those months and piles of discarded parts, I went back to a relatively simple piece of .016 bent aluminum that attached to the wing with Velcro. After everything I learned, I can say that the Kolb wing folding design makes it very VERY time consuming and challenging to make a center gap seal that stays in place and the wings just unfold and automatically seal against.

At the end of the day, the original design shown on the plans (for the Firestar it is a piece of lexan or plexiglas held in place with velcro) will be the easiest way by far.

I can hear John H laughing all the way from Alabama Smile

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/22/19, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2019, 8:09 PM

Richard, I don't
think you can get there from here. It's just the
geometry of the way the wing swings. What you might consider
is having the wings butt up against the gap seal rather than
having them slide into it. Use some sailplane gap seal tape
when the plane is all rigged. That's the solution I used
on the Mk IIIX.
Rick
On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 5:25
PM slingshot003 <i2bxtn(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
--> Kolb-List message
posted by: "slingshot003" <i2bxtn(at)gmail.com>



Thanks to all who sent replies. I attached a pic of my gap
seal.  Do any of you with a rigid gap seal have it set up
so it stays in place & you just fold the wings into
it?  As you can see from my picture, the wind shield rests
on top of the center section hoop and continues up about 1
1/2".  With the center section mounted, the wing
leading edge tubes hit the front of the gap seal &
prevents the wing from mating with its anchoring pin.  If
the wing is first folded all the way forward & pinned,
then the wind shield sticking above he center section hoop
blocks the gap seal from being inserted. In order for this
to have worked, I am thinking the wind shield must have been
put on after the gap seal was installed.  Maybe I am
missing something here?



I might be able to use this gap seal if I cut the top of the
wind shield flush with the top of the hoop, but since the
wind shield is not physically attached to the hoop (only to
the nose cone) it might not be secure enough to handle any
wind side loads as when crabbing.



I am looking for a quick fix so I can get this into the
air.  I will do full or semi-full enclosure down the
road.  Any ideas out there? -Richard Swiderski









Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487185#487185









Attachments:



http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_160.jpg

http://forums.matronics.com//files/lexon_gap_seal_163.jpg







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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:04 am    Post subject: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

Who? Me?

Not me. I've also been down that road. Sometimes we have to see for ourselves before we give up.

I wish I still had that drive I had way back then to experiment and get "stuff" done.

So much to do. So little time. Go have fun and don't worry about it. Wink

john h
MKIII
Titus, Alabama



I can hear John H laughing all the way from Alabama Smile

Bill Berle


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Richard Pike



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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Location: Blountville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

Cut off the top part of the windshield that projects higher than the hoop.
Make up a piece of aluminum that can replace the top of the windshield that you just cut off. Shape it to seal the area above the windshield to the gap seal. Maybe put some velcro on it where it touches the gap seal, if necessary.
Get some blind nuts like these or similar and put about three of them on the inside of the hoop. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/anchornutsmk1000.php?clickkey=3026140
Install the wings, install the gap seal, install the new windshield top piece that you just made, and then put in some screws to hold the windshield and windshield top piece securely to the hoop. You have added one small step to the assembly process, but you made a lot of other things simpler because now you can put the gap seal on after the wings are on.


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slingshot003



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 17
Location: FL USA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

Richard Pike,

Your suggestion is the only logical solution if I am to keep the full length windshield without any major modifications, regardless if I keep the lexon gap seal or go with a fabric or vinyl one. I may just weld 3 tabs to the bottom of the hoop and rivet the shortened windshield to the tabs, then just velcro something to seal the gap between the windshield and the gap seal. This would get me flying until I commit to a full enclosure design. -Richard Swiderski


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:01 am    Post subject: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

Been years Richard, since we stopped by to see your Geo powered Kolb and custom built trailer. Glad to see you’re into it. G Aman

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Jan 24, 2019, at 1:11 PM, slingshot003 <i2bxtn(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Richard Pike,

Your suggestion is the only logical solution if I am to keep the full length windshield without any major modifications, regardless if I keep the lexon gap seal or go with a fabric or vinyl one. I may just weld 3 tabs to the bottom of the hoop and rivet the shortened windshield to the tabs, then just velcro something to seal the gap between the windshield and the gap seal. This would get me flying until I commit to a full enclosure design. -Richard Swiderski




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=487235#487235











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slingshot003



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 17
Location: FL USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Help with FS Wing Gap Seal Reply with quote

Gary,

thanks for the kind words. It is exciting to being close to flying again. -Richard S


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