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Back-Up Battery

 
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nickc(at)mtaonline.net
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject: Back-Up Battery Reply with quote

Kolbers,

I am considering a Battery back up system, and wondering if anyone has experience with TCW Technologies?

Thanks,

Nick Cassara
Palmer, Alaska 99645

607AK


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rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1359
Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject: Back-Up Battery Reply with quote

Nick, Try the Aeroelectric Connection also on Matronics.

Rick
On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:45 PM Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)>

Kolbers,

I am considering a Battery back up system, and wondering if anyone has experience with TCW Technologies?

Thanks,

Nick Cassara
Palmer, Alaska 99645

607AK

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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:56 pm    Post subject: Back-Up Battery Reply with quote

Good advice; that is the ultimate source for electrical info.

Having said that, quite a few RV-x drivers use them.

Having said *that*, do you mind telling us how you'll be using it (beyond the obvious 'backup')? There may be less expensive alternatives.

Charlie

On 2/11/2019 7:42 PM, Richard Girard wrote:

Quote:
Nick, Try the Aeroelectric Connection also on Matronics.

Rick


On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:45 PM Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net (nickc(at)mtaonline.net)>

Kolbers,

I am considering a Battery back up system, and wondering if anyone has experience with TCW Technologies?

Thanks,

Nick Cassara
Palmer, Alaska 99645


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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:21 am    Post subject: Back-Up Battery Reply with quote

Well Nick, I installed a Aerovoltz iron lithium ion battery in my Firestar last year. The battery is very small and light 1.3 lbs. I use it as my primary battery. It starts my Hirth 2702 without a problem. The battery is relatively inexpensive, they come in variety of different sizes. I did also order the special balancing charger. I highly recommend this system. I bought it from Aircraft Spruce. They actually had the best price.
George Helton
Firestar, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Feb 11, 2019, at 6:44 PM, Nick Cassara <nickc(at)mtaonline.net> wrote:



Kolbers,

I am considering a Battery back up system, and wondering if anyone has experience with TCW Technologies?

Thanks,

Nick Cassara
Palmer, Alaska 99645

607AK






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Jerry-TS-MkII



Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 51
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Back-Up Battery Reply with quote

Hey guys...
Just to add some generic info about li-ion batteries and their care and feeding. Unlike lead-acid or ni-cad or ni-mh, lithium-ion cells are more critical of under voltage, over-voltage, or over-current. Most cells have a protective device that does not allow them to go below a certain cut-off voltage, or to be charged too high. But for starting a engine, most of those high capacity cells do not include that same protection device. If charged over 4.2v per cell, they can be damaged. If allowed to discharge below 3.3 they can also be damaged. Most consider 3.6-3.7 as a minimum cut-off. A pack can be assembled with high discharge cells using 18650 size, with up to 20-30A max current per string. IE 3 cells in series will net 11.1 - 12.6 volts. Multiple parallel sets can boost the current. But.. you will want to add a circuit which protects them, both in discharge and re-charge voltage, and to keep each group of cells balanced, and the discharge current within limits.

The use of a diode, feeding a aux pack into the buss will keep it "out of the circuit" until the main battery drops enough that the aux is .5-.6v above it.. where the diode will then begin to conduct and provide current. That DOES NOT charge the cells however, as the diode is a one way device. And another factor, is that if your primary circuit or buss has a high drain problem or failure, THAT needs to be isolated first. Otherwise your back-up battery won't last very long. Some will use 2 packs that are switched so that one is charged.. while the other is active in circuit. Both can be used in parallel with high power diodes, for starting purposes.

Up-side to li-ion.. they do have a long life when not in use. Ni-cads and Ni-Mh are both much worse at self discharge, and ni-cads bad about "memory" of not cycled fully. But none of the new high density technologies are without their particulars. Lithium polymer just tend to catch on fire if mistreated. Jerry


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baberdk



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 53
Location: East Moline, Il

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:30 am    Post subject: Back-Up Battery Reply with quote

Good info on Lithium batteries. Also, they need to have the cells "balanced". They only charge until the cell with the most charge is charged and only discharge until the cell with the least cell is discharged. If there is a great difference between the cells it will seem like the capacity is reduced so it is a good idea to balance the cells on the ground to increase capacity. We only need the battery to use the starting motor but it is a nice back-up if the charging system fails. The Rotax has two ignition systems that are independent from the charging system and each other so I haven't heard of ignition failures as much as fuel problems. Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries.

Respectfully,
Dennis Baber
Cape Coral, Fl
baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)
305-814-7218
Stay Curious 


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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject: Back-Up Battery Reply with quote

I installed a Aerovoltz iron lithium battery in my redrive VW powered Kolb MKIIIC in the summer of 2014. The battery has provided great service. The plane sits all winter while I'm in Florida and shows no measurable discharge. I take my balancing charger out to the plane every spring and check the battery cell balance. So far the voltages are within .1 volts and the balance charger can't improve that balance. These LiFe batteries don't seem to catch fire but they don't like to be over charged so I monitor the voltage while flying. Areovoltz has published a advisory to not use their batteries with some Rotax charging systems that have caused a battery melt down. The battery weighs 10lbs less than my old lead acid batteries and has lasted one year longer so far. 
Denny I don't understand what you are trying to say "Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries"
Rick Neisen
Redrive WV Powered MKIIIC
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 9:32 AM Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Good info on Lithium batteries. Also, they need to have the cells "balanced". They only charge until the cell with the most charge is charged and only discharge until the cell with the least cell is discharged. If there is a great difference between the cells it will seem like the capacity is reduced so it is a good idea to balance the cells on the ground to increase capacity. We only need the battery to use the starting motor but it is a nice back-up if the charging system fails. The Rotax has two ignition systems that are independent from the charging system and each other so I haven't heard of ignition failures as much as fuel problems. Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries.

Respectfully,
Dennis Baber
Cape Coral, Fl
baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)
305-814-7218
Stay Curious 





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Jerry-TS-MkII



Joined: 23 Aug 2017
Posts: 51
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Back-Up Battery Reply with quote

Reference cell balancing:
A small PC board is included in most serious "cordless" applications. Multi-function. During discharge, it measures the total output current, and limits that. Much like a active resettable fuse. Most are not adjustable, but instead selected for the particular application current. Cells can be assembled in parallel to boost current capacity, but that is not ideal, unless each has it's own current control, and tied together with high current diodes. Still basically in parallel, but also protected. And each cell voltage is monitored, and if one cell is higher than others, a small leakage current is established, that lowers the high cell voltage. It is minimal loss. The device also watches the minimum total voltage and will shut it down, if too low.

During charge, the charging current and profile is regulated, AND the cells are kept balanced, again by slight current bypass, for any cells which are too high.

If you simply take a rectified alternator output it will always be higher voltage than the peak system battery voltage, to charge it to the max. (approx 13.8 for lead acid). With any of the high energy density cells, the charge regime is very specific for the type of chemistry being charged. So that is why the above control board is used (required), to charge properly, from a poorly regulated engine source. And also why one pack can be "on-line" while the other is charging unencumbered to it's proper maximum voltage and rate. With most of these cells having a voltage of about 4 volts.. 3 cells will never be higher than 12.6V. If a diode is used, that will drop .5-.6 volts so the 3 cells will supply 12.1 max, down to 10.5. Some equipment can stand the higher voltage provided by 4 cells (16.8 minus .5-.6 for 16.2 max). A starter motor would probably be fine with the slightly higher voltage. Electronic devices are usually regulated internally but.. look at the specs before proceeding.

Switching supplies can be used to boost or drop the battery voltage.. but that adds significant complexity and cost for the high current applications.

The battery control boards are mass produced, and rather inexpensive. Each will have specific cell count, and output current range.
Jerry


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capedavis(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:10 pm    Post subject: Back-Up Battery Reply with quote

George 2Which aerovoltz battery do you have and what did t cost ? Thank u Chris

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 14, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I installed a Aerovoltz iron lithium battery in my redrive VW powered Kolb MKIIIC in the summer of 2014. The battery has provided great service. The plane sits all winter while I'm in Florida and shows no measurable discharge. I take my balancing charger out to the plane every spring and check the battery cell balance. So far the voltages are within .1 volts and the balance charger can't improve that balance. These LiFe batteries don't seem to catch fire but they don't like to be over charged so I monitor the voltage while flying. Areovoltz has published a advisory to not use their batteries with some Rotax charging systems that have caused a battery melt down. The battery weighs 10lbs less than my old lead acid batteries and has lasted one year longer so far.
Denny I don't understand what you are trying to say "Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries"
Rick Neisen
Redrive WV Powered MKIIIC
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 9:32 AM Denny Baber <baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Good info on Lithium batteries. Also, they need to have the cells "balanced". They only charge until the cell with the most charge is charged and only discharge until the cell with the least cell is discharged. If there is a great difference between the cells it will seem like the capacity is reduced so it is a good idea to balance the cells on the ground to increase capacity. We only need the battery to use the starting motor but it is a nice back-up if the charging system fails. The Rotax has two ignition systems that are independent from the charging system and each other so I haven't heard of ignition failures as much as fuel problems. Dead stick landings are usually affected more by stalling than the wings falling off so I think practice is more important than three batteries.

Respectfully,
Dennis Baber
Cape Coral, Fl
baberdk(at)gmail.com (baberdk(at)gmail.com)
305-814-7218
Stay Curious







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