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Tires, wheels and brakes?

 
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13brv3



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:40 am    Post subject: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

Greetings,

I'm working on an old Slingshot, and it currently has Van-K 6"x4" aluminum wheels, and MCP hydraulic brakes. These seem like quality items, and I have no problem with either, other than the fact that I'd prefer split hub wheels to these one piece wheels.

The problem is the tires. They're ancient, and really low quality Duro tires that appear to be for mowers? The size is 15 6.00-6. The wheels don't allow the use of tubes, and aircraft tires in this size are rarely tubeless. I think there are a few, but they're over $300 each, and for that price, I'd rather just replace the wheels and brakes (if needed) to get split hubs.

Question 1- Is there a good quality tubeless tire that will fit these wheels? I will be operating almost entirely from paved strips. I'm very hesitant to run lawnmower tires on a plane, since I'd hate to have to explain to the FAA why I installed tires like that if there's an accident involving one of them. Duro, Carlisle, and some others exist in a 15x6.00-6 size, but even the 4ply doesn't inspire confidence.

Question 2- If there's no reasonably priced tire for these wheels, is there a reasonably priced tire/wheel/hydraulic brake package that uses aircraft tires? I was looking at Black Max, but those seem to have the same issue as what I have, except that they do offer split hubs. Their tires are Carlisle, and I'm not sure if you could use a tube and aircraft tire with the Black Max wheels.

Thanks,
Rusty


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

An a&p friend brought me a pair of Citrabria tube type  6x6 'take-offs' that I installed on the BlackMax one peice wheels on Tracy's Twinstar. No tubes and no air added in almost 2 years.
Charlie
On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:42 PM, 13brv3 <13brv3(at)gmail.com (13brv3(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "13brv3" <13brv3(at)gmail.com>Greetings,I'm working on an old Slingshot, and it currently has Van-K 6"x4" aluminum wheels, and MCP hydraulic brakes. These seem like quality items, and I have no problem with either, other than the fact that I'd prefer split hub wheels to these one piece wheels. The problem is the tires. They're ancient, and really low quality Duro tires that appear to be for mowers? The size is 15 6.00-6. The wheels don't allow the use of tubes, and aircraft tires in this size are rarely tubeless. I think there are a few, but they're over $300 each, and for that price, I'd rather just replace the wheels and brakes (if needed) to get split hubs.Question 1- Is there a good quality tubeless tire that will fit these wheels? I will be operating almost entirely from paved strips. I'm very hesitant to run lawnmower tires on a plane, since I'd hate to have to explain to the FAA why I installed tires like that if there's an accident involving one of them. Duro, Carlisle, and some others exist in a 15x6.00-6 size, but even the 4ply doesn't inspire confidence. Question 2- If there's no reasonably priced tire for these wheels, is there a reasonably priced tire/wheel/hydraulic brake package that uses aircraft tires? I was looking at Black Max, but those seem to have the same issue as what I have, except that they do offer split hubs. Their tires are Carlisle, and I'm not sure if you could use a tube and aircraft tire with the Black Max wheels. Thanks,RustyRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488906#488906http://wiki.matronics.com[/url]http://www.matronics.com/contribution


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Rex Rodebush



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 203
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

The Carlisle tires are junk. They are made for golf carts. Kolb originally supplied them on my Xtra. I replaced them with Goodyear Aircraft tires. They are expensive but worth the money in my opinion. I use Matco split rims and went with two Matco calipers on each wheel. I also use tubes. Very happy with the results.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:17 pm    Post subject: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

I don't spend money I don't need to, that is why I have a VW on my MKIII. I have been flying the Carlisle tires since I got them with my Kolb kit. They have served me well. They do shake a bit till I touch the brakes after take off and that maybe is a need for balancing? I have had a few flats from leaking Matco wheels and a few pinched tubes but that isn't the fault of the tires. Most of my flying has been off grass so I haven't had much wear. A few years ago I moved from my own grass strip to a real airport with paved runways so now my tires need to be replaced but that is 26 years of service. Will you get better service from aircraft tires?? I don't like paying insurance and a bunch of lawyers that add no value to aircraft parts.
As usual worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 4:51 PM Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>

The Carlisle tires are junk.  They are made for golf carts.  Kolb originally supplied them on my Xtra.  I replaced them with Goodyear Aircraft tires.  They are expensive but worth the money in my opinion.  I use Matco split rims and went with two Matco calipers on each wheel.  I also use tubes. Very happy with the results.




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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:34 pm    Post subject: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

To expand on this (I was previously typing on my phone), the tires are 6.00-6, standard fare on most small/mid size certified a/c, and were removed from the Citabria at annual due to wear (only a hint of tread groove still showing). Intended for tube operation on split wheels. I mounted them on the one-piece wheels on the Kolb without any tubes. I've probably added air to my RV's tube type, split rim tires 3 or 4 times since installing the Kolb tires, and have never added air to the Kolb. I really didn't know if running them tubeless would work, but it seems that as long as the tire (and its bead) and the rim are both in good shape, they'll hold air for a looong time.

If 6.00-6 tires will fit your rims, it might be worth taking a shot at picking up a couple of freebies, like I did. A busy maintenance shop likely has several pairs lying around.

Charlie

On 4/23/2019 2:17 PM, Charlie England wrote:

Quote:
An a&p friend brought me a pair of Citrabria tube type  6x6 'take-offs' that I installed on the BlackMax one peice wheels on Tracy's Twinstar. No tubes and no air added in almost 2 years.


Charlie
On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:42 PM, 13brv3 <13brv3(at)gmail.com (13brv3(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "13brv3" <13brv3(at)gmail.com> (13brv3(at)gmail.com)

Greetings,

I'm working on an old Slingshot, and it currently has Van-K 6"x4" aluminum wheels, and MCP hydraulic brakes. These seem like quality items, and I have no problem with either, other than the fact that I'd prefer split hub wheels to these one piece wheels.

The problem is the tires. They're ancient, and really low quality Duro tires that appear to be for mowers? The size is 15 6.00-6. The wheels don't allow the use of tubes, and aircraft tires in this size are rarely tubeless. I think there are a few, but they're over $300 each, and for that price, I'd rather just replace the wheels and brakes (if needed) to get split hubs.

Question 1- Is there a good quality tubeless tire that will fit these wheels? I will be operating almost entirely from paved strips. I'm very hesitant to run lawnmower tires on a plane, since I'd hate to have to explain to the FAA why I installed tires like that if there's an accident involving one of them. Duro, Carlisle, and some others exist in a 15x6.00-6 size, but even the 4ply doesn't inspire confidence.

Question 2- If there's no reasonably priced tire for these wheels, is there a reasonably priced tire/wheel/hydraulic brake package that uses aircraft tires? I was looking at Black Max, but those seem to have the same issue as what I have, except that they do offer split hubs. Their tires are Carlisle, and I'm not sure if you could use a tube and aircraft tire with the Black Max wheels.

Thanks,
Rusty



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13brv3



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

Thanks for all the comments. I pretty much expected opinions to vary from- use anything that holds air, to use only certified tires.

I understand the Carlisle (and other cheap tires) tend to have balance issues, and balance weights will likely end up in the prop as part of Murphy's law of pusher engines. Other than the fact that they don't rate them for speed, the 4 ply Carlisles seem sufficient for the Slingshot. The path of least (effort and financial) resistance would be to try a pair, and since they're only $23 each from Amazon, I might just do that.

BlackMax told me they don't make wheels for tubes, but they do have a 6x6 wheel that has the hole in the center, where it would be on a normal split rim. It's a one piece wheel.

Desser said they have a Aero Classic tubeless tire for $226 each. Sounds like it's a Cirrus tire. It's 6 ply, which is way overkill, and from what I understand the higher ply tires are very hard to mount on one piece wheels. BTW, I always wondered why most aircraft tires need tubes from how well the beads tend to seal. I guess the split in the rim is the typical reason. It might be worth trying some cheap 6x6 aircraft tires without the tubes on the one-piece wheels.

Finally, there's Matco, which may be an option, but they have so many confusing types on their page that I eventually give up after staring at it for a while.

Thanks,
Rusty


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

Rusty, I’ve basically ran those very brands for many years. Your worry is not realistic. I now run Black Max brakes and one piece wheels. I have two sets , 6”inch wide for my booney tires 15 X 6 and 6X4 Aero something from Aircraft Spruce for paved runways. There rated for 70 mph.
Both set are mounted tubeless. I’ve never in 34 years of flying ultralights had a blowout.
Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Apr 23, 2019, at 1:40 PM, 13brv3 <13brv3(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Greetings,

I'm working on an old Slingshot, and it currently has Van-K 6"x4" aluminum wheels, and MCP hydraulic brakes. These seem like quality items, and I have no problem with either, other than the fact that I'd prefer split hub wheels to these one piece wheels.

The problem is the tires. They're ancient, and really low quality Duro tires that appear to be for mowers? The size is 15 6.00-6. The wheels don't allow the use of tubes, and aircraft tires in this size are rarely tubeless. I think there are a few, but they're over $300 each, and for that price, I'd rather just replace the wheels and brakes (if needed) to get split hubs.

Question 1- Is there a good quality tubeless tire that will fit these wheels? I will be operating almost entirely from paved strips. I'm very hesitant to run lawnmower tires on a plane, since I'd hate to have to explain to the FAA why I installed tires like that if there's an accident involving one of them. Duro, Carlisle, and some others exist in a 15x6.00-6 size, but even the 4ply doesn't inspire confidence.

Question 2- If there's no reasonably priced tire for these wheels, is there a reasonably priced tire/wheel/hydraulic brake package that uses aircraft tires? I was looking at Black Max, but those seem to have the same issue as what I have, except that they do offer split hubs. Their tires are Carlisle, and I'm not sure if you could use a tube and aircraft tire with the Black Max wheels.

Thanks,
Rusty




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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

Naturally I would jump in with my scrounging method...The local AP/IA gives me tires..They are pulls but many have a lot of wear left. Herb
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 6:16 PM, 13brv3 <13brv3(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:


Thanks for all the comments. I pretty much expected opinions to vary from use anything that holds are, to use only certified tires.

I understand the Carlisle (and other cheap tires) tend to have balance issues, and balance weights will likely end up in the prop as part of Murphy's law of pusher engines. Other than the fact that they don't rate them for speed, the 4 ply Carlisles seem sufficient for the Slingshot. The path of least (effort and financial) resistance would be to try a pair, and since they're only $23 each from Amazon, I might just do that.

BlackMax told me they don't make wheels for tubes, but they do have a 6x6 wheel that has the hole in the center, where it would be on a normal split rim. It's a one piece wheel.

Desser said they have a Aero Classic tubeless tire for $226 each. Sounds like it's a Cirrus tire. It's 6 ply, which is way overkill, and from what I understand the higher ply tires are very hard to mount on one piece wheels. BTW, I always wondered why most aircraft tires need tubes from how well the beads tend to seal. I guess the split in the rim is the typical reason. It might be worth trying some cheap 6x6 aircraft tires without the tubes on the one-piece wheels.

Finally, there's Matco, which may be an option, but they have so many confusing types on their page that I eventually give up after staring at it for a while.

Thanks,
Rusty

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:21 pm    Post subject: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

Quote:
To balance tires i got this this idea from Nick Casara.   


Instead of using stick on weights inside the rim.    I took a  tubeless tire patch  taped it on the light  side of the tread till the tire would Ballance.     Un mounted the tire  mount the patch on the inside of the tire tread.  
Remount the tire using talcum powder to keep the tube  from sticking to the patch.   Keep the bead of the tire free of talc.
Balanced tire with no visible weights to fall off.
Just mark the tire, rim and tube so final assembly is the same as when first tested.
Boyd Young
Mkiii  Utah


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Rex Rodebush



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 203
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

Just to give a little background on my experience with Carlisle tires. I had about 140 landings (on pavement) with the ones furnished by Kolb. The Cord was showing so I replaced them with another set of Carlisle's. After installing on the rims I added about 6 oz. of weight on one and it still would not balance. I then noticed that the runout on that tire was well over 1/2 inch in one spot. I think the cord was overlaped too much (made in China). I also had a very difficult time seating the tire on the rim due to poor manufacturing tolerances. I decided to run it anyway and see if it was a problem. At a very, very fast taxi it was hardly noticeable. At a normal taxi speed it was like going over a 1/2 +" high speed bump and was in resonance with the landing gear. Very bouncy, not good.

I then replaced them with Goodyear 8.00-6 tires. They seated on the rims very nicely and had no noticeable runout. They are also 6 ply where the Carlisle's had 4 ply. The downside is that the Goodyears are about 2.3# heaver per tire and of course the high cost. Anyway, we'll see how long they last. My landings are much slower and better now so that should help.


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Rex Rodebush



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: Branson West area, Missouri

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

I forgot to add that the Goodyear tires required very little balance weights. I think I used about 3/4 oz on one and a little more on the other. Not sure it they really needed it but decided to balance them anyway.

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13brv3



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:16 am    Post subject: Re: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

Thanks again. I like the wheels and brakes, so I'm going to try one of the less expensive aircraft tires, but without the tube. I have to believe that's a better option than the Carlisle, and hardly any more expensive.

Thanks,
Rusty


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13brv3



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:19 am    Post subject: Re: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

After some further research, it appears the Van-K wheels I have are actually two piece rims, not one-piece. All their current videos show the welded one-piece wheels, so I overlooked the bolt-together rims that were also on their site. I'll know for sure when I take them apart, but certainly I'll need new o-rings for the center, and valve stems. This will make mounting the tires much easier.

Thanks again,
Rusty


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:13 pm    Post subject: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

On 4/24/2019 8:19 AM, 13brv3 wrote:
Quote:


After some further research, it appears the Van-K wheels I have are actually two piece rims, not one-piece. All their current videos show the welded one-piece wheels, so I overlooked the bolt-together rims that were also on their site. I'll know for sure when I take them apart, but certainly I'll need new o-rings for the center, and valve stems. This will make mounting the tires much easier.

Thanks again,
Rusty

If they don't have the smaller dia recess in the center of the rim, it

would certainly be tough (impossible?) to mount a tire without splitting
the wheel. My one piece BlackMax wheels have a deep recess, just like
automotive tires. It was relatively easy to mount my tires. How wide
are your rims? IIRC, mine are close to 6" between the rims.

Charlie

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13brv3



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Tires, wheels and brakes? Reply with quote

ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:


If they don't have the smaller dia recess in the center of the rim, it
would certainly be tough (impossible?) to mount a tire without splitting
the wheel. My one piece BlackMax wheels have a deep recess, just like
automotive tires. It was relatively easy to mount my tires. How wide
are your rims? IIRC, mine are close to 6" between the rims.

Charlie


Hopefully I won't have to find out. These wheels are 4" wide.

I did learn a few "facts" about tube type tires that don't seem to match the reports I've read here. In theory, tube type tires are to be designed with pin hole leaks, rather than being sealed. The idea is that no air can get trapped between the tube and tire. I asked Desser if that was really still true, mentioning the reports of people using them with no tubes, and no leaks. I haven't heard back from them yet.

The cheapest tubeless aircraft tire I can find is made by Goodyear, at about $160 each. They're 6 ply, which is overkill, and I'd be afraid they'd be too hard to mount if the wheels were one piece, but if they're really two piece, I'll probably get a set of these and have no nagging concerns about tires in the future.

Rusty


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