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[OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

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art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:07 am Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

This is somewhat off-topic but I figure y'all know a lot about airplanes so you might have opinions about avionics, too.

I reserved space in my panel for a Garmin 430 WAAS or a Garmin 650. Now that Oshkosh is upon us, perhaps I can save a few pennies on an IFR-certified GPS that will fit in that hole. It doesnâ€™t have to be a Garmin; that is just the size hole that I cut when I did the rest of the panel.



What suggestions do you have, both for equipment and vendor?



Â  Â  -- Art Z.

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

alec(at)alecmyers.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:23 pm Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

Iâ€™m fond of the Avidyne IFD series 



On Jul 13, 2019, at 08:05, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This is somewhat off-topic but I figure y'all know a lot about airplanes so you might have opinions about avionics, too.

I reserved space in my panel for a Garmin 430 WAAS or a Garmin 650. Now that Oshkosh is upon us, perhaps I can save a few pennies on an IFR-certified GPS that will fit in that hole. It doesnâ€™t have to be a Garmin; that is just the size hole that I cut when I did the rest of the panel.



What suggestions do you have, both for equipment and vendor?



    -- Art Z.

-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

mike(at)vision499.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:22 pm Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

Hello Art

 

If I remember correctly you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL was WAAS certified.

 

Not sure if this was your question or whether you wanted something in addition to Â your system

 

Keep well

 

Mike

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Alec Myers

Sent: July 13, 2019 3:18 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

 

Iâ€™m fond of the Avidyne IFD series 

On Jul 13, 2019, at 08:05, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

This is somewhat off-topic but I figure y'all know a lot about airplanes so you might have opinions about avionics, too.



 



I reserved space in my panel for a Garmin 430 WAAS or a Garmin 650. Now that Oshkosh is upon us, perhaps I can save a few pennies on an IFR-certified GPS that will fit in that hole. It doesnâ€™t have to be a Garmin; that is just the size hole that I cut when I did the rest of the panel.



What suggestions do you have, both for equipment and vendor?



 



    -- Art Z.



 



-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/



Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19



	


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art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:07 am Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

Mike,

Yes, I have an MGL system and their latest GPS, the SP-12, has the necessary certifications to be an ADS-B source. Rainier has posted the details but they were so detailed that my eyes glazed over while reading them. The bottom line is that the SP-12 is certified but the GPS which is integrated into the EFIS is significantly more accurate. Go figure.

I am seeking a navigation radio with a GPS receiver that I can use for flying IFR so I want both the necessary certifications andÂ the database with approaches, SIDs, STARs, etc. And I want a proven user interface that someone else has already designed and debugged. I am willing to do a lot of experimenting but, when I am in the clouds, I want to minimize my risk and workload.

The MGL SP-12 is only GPS receiver, though. It lacks a front panel display, database, etc etc etc, so it won't meet my needs.

Â  Â  -- Art Z.

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 11:37 PM <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello Art

Â 

If I remember correctly you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL was WAAS certified.

Â 

Not sure if this was your question or whether you wanted something in addition to Â your system



	


-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

gfarek(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:30 am Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

No, hot GRT ,



Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 16, 2019, at 11:21 PM, <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)> <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->

Hello Art

 

If I remember correctly you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL was WAAS certified.

 

Not sure if this was your question or whether you wanted something in addition to  your system

 

Keep well

 

Mike

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Alec Myers

Sent: July 13, 2019 3:18 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

 

Iâ€™m fond of the Avidyne IFD series 

On Jul 13, 2019, at 08:05, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

This is somewhat off-topic but I figure y'all know a lot about airplanes so you might have opinions about avionics, too.



 



I reserved space in my panel for a Garmin 430 WAAS or a Garmin 650. Now that Oshkosh is upon us, perhaps I can save a few pennies on an IFR-certified GPS that will fit in that hole. It doesnâ€™t have to be a Garmin; that is just the size hole that I cut when I did the rest of the panel.



What suggestions do you have, both for equipment and vendor?



 



    -- Art Z.



 



-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/



Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19



	




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Michael Wynn

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 148
Location: San Ramon, CA

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:06 am Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

Hi Art, 

 

  I installed a GTN 650 in my RV8 when they first came out.  Could not be happier with the unit.  It is simple and intuitive to use.  Data updates are expensive, but that is the nature things aviation.

  

 

  Michael Wynn

  RV8

  Livermore, CA

 

 

  --

_________________
Michael Wynn
RV 8
San Ramon, CA

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 232

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:29 am Post subject: Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

I had the IFR GPS from GRT but they didn't have the software updated. So I went looking for a GNS400W (or 400 that I would upgrade).  For the same price I was finding them, Tim and Approach FastStack got me a brand new GTN625.



Took me a while to get used to the different UI, but it's pretty nice.

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:59 am Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

As Art points out, there are radical differences between a 'WAAS certified GPS' as a position source for ADSB, and an IFR certified GPS navigation radio. As far as I know, there are no experimental EFIS systems that are approved for IFR *navigation*. Perfectly fine to use them as flight instruments in IFR conditions, but until the FAA modifies their rules, you still need an IFR certified GPS navigator (complete with certified, up to date databases, approaches, etc) for IFR GPS navigation in the USA. I've seen some rumors that FAA might be considering an easing on that rule, so that non-certified GPS could be used for IFR, similar to non-TSO VOR/ILS receivers, but haven't heard of any official change.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 7:12 AM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Mike,

Yes, I have an MGL system and their latest GPS, the SP-12, has the necessary certifications to be an ADS-B source. Rainier has posted the details but they were so detailed that my eyes glazed over while reading them. The bottom line is that the SP-12 is certified but the GPS which is integrated into the EFIS is significantly more accurate. Go figure.

I am seeking a navigation radio with a GPS receiver that I can use for flying IFR so I want both the necessary certifications andÂ the database with approaches, SIDs, STARs, etc. And I want a proven user interface that someone else has already designed and debugged. I am willing to do a lot of experimenting but, when I am in the clouds, I want to minimize my risk and workload.

The MGL SP-12 is only GPS receiver, though. It lacks a front panel display, database, etc etc etc, so it won't meet my needs.

Â  Â  -- Art Z.

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 11:37 PM <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Hello Art

Â 

If I remember correctly you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL was WAAS certified.

Â 

Not sure if this was your question or whether you wanted something in addition to Â your system



	


-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:03 pm Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

Hey Art, 

       

       Don't know your budget, but an IFR rated friend replaced his       Garmin 430 with an Avidyne 440. Slide-in replacement for the 430,       and he says that it's got a much better user interface and some       really nice features that 'anticipate' the next segment when       flying a procedure. 

       

       At the time, they were offering a very attractive trade-in deal       for 430s, which I suppose won't help you much. 

       

       Charlie

       

       On 7/17/2019 1:53 PM, Charlie England wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                         As Art points           out, there are radical differences between a 'WAAS certified           GPS' as a position source for ADSB, and an IFR certified GPS           navigation radio. As far as I know, there are no experimental           EFIS systems that are approved for IFR *navigation*. Perfectly           fine to use them as flight instruments in IFR conditions, but           until the FAA modifies their rules, you still need an IFR           certified GPS navigator (complete with certified, up to date           databases, approaches, etc) for IFR GPS navigation in the USA.           I've seen some rumors that FAA might be considering an easing           on that rule, so that non-certified GPS could be used for IFR,           similar to non-TSO VOR/ILS receivers, but haven't heard of any           official change.

       

       

                On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 7:12           AM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

         

          	  Quote: 	
		                                         Mike,

               

               

               Yes,                 I have an MGL system and their latest GPS, the SP-12, has                 the necessary certifications to be an ADS-B source.                 Rainier has posted the details but they were so detailed                 that my eyes glazed over while reading them. The bottom                 line is that the SP-12 is certified but the GPS which is                 integrated into the EFIS is significantly more accurate.                 Go figure.

               

               

               I                 am seeking a navigation radio with a GPS receiver that I                 can use for flying IFR so I want both the necessary                 certifications andÂ the database with approaches,                 SIDs, STARs, etc. And I want a proven user interface                 that someone else has already designed and debugged. I                 am willing to do a lot of experimenting but, when I am                 in the clouds, I want to minimize my risk and workload.

               

               

               The                 MGL SP-12 is only GPS receiver, though. It lacks a front                 panel display, database, etc etc etc, so it won't meet                 my needs.

               

               

               Â                  Â  -- Art Z.

             

             

                            On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at                 11:37 PM <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)>                 wrote:

               

                	  Quote: 	
		                                                           

Hello Art                     

Â                      

If I remember correctly                         you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the                         MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL                         was WAAS certified.                     

Â                      

Not sure if this was your                         question or whether you wanted something in                         addition to Â your system                   

                 

               	
             

             

             

             -- 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/                                                                                    Love the                                             stranger for you yourselves                                             were strangers in Egypt. Deut.                                           10:19

                                       

                                     

                                   

                                 

                               

                             

                           

                         

                       

                     

                   

                 

               

             

           

         	
       

     	
     

       	 		 			 				 			 		 		 			

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art(at)zemon.name
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:25 pm Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

Charlie,

I am definitely considering the Avidyne IFD 440. I have a friend with one in his RV10 and he really likes it.

I am also considering the new Garmin GPS 175 and then add a second comm radio and call it done. (I already have a VOR/ILS/GS nav radio.)

Â  Â  Â -- Art Z.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 4:19 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		                     Hey Art, 

       

       Don't know your budget, but an IFR rated friend replaced his       Garmin 430 with an Avidyne 440. Slide-in replacement for the 430,       and he says that it's got a much better user interface and some       really nice features that 'anticipate' the next segment when       flying a procedure.Â 



	


-- 

https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/Love the stranger for you yourselves were strangers in Egypt. Deut. 10:19

fly4grins(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:08 am Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Charlie et al-

It's been a while since I had my fingers in this stuff, but isn't the requirement for certificated GPS only for terminal operations?Â  IIRC, experimental GPS is fine for en route, but some other means is required for finding the runway. 	
TIAÂ

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:51 am Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

I'm not IFR rated, and it's been weeks since I stayed in *any* hotel, so I'm not qualified to answer that. But my layman's understanding is that you can ask ATC for a 'heading' to fly direct to your IFR destination, and they'd wink, nod, & give you the clearance. Many years ago, my airline pilot Swift partner used to do that with a VFR LORAN receiver. Wouldn't be the same thing as actually filing GPS-direct, but has the same effect.Â 

You could be right about experimentals; I just haven't heard about it.

Charlie

On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 8:15 AM GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com (fly4grins(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Charlie et al-

It's been a while since I had my fingers in this stuff, but isn't the requirement for certificated GPS only for terminal operations?Â  IIRC, experimental GPS is fine for en route, but some other means is required for finding the runway. 	
TIAÂ

jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:37 am Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

I'm IFR rated, but only in helicopters (thanks, Uncle Sam!), but haven't

flown IFR in 35+ years.  However, I do read a lot, and I probably have

stayed in a Holiday Inn at least once in the past year...  



So here's the AIM section [AIM 1-1-17(b)(2)] that explains the rules:  

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap1_section_1.html



And here's what that paragraph says:  



Authorization to conduct any GPS operation under IFR requires:



(1) GPS navigation equipment used for IFR operations must be approved in

accordance with the requirements specified in Technical Standard Order

(TSO) TSO-C129(), TSO-C196(), TSO-C145(), or TSO-C146(), and the

installation must be done in accordance with Advisory Circular AC

20-138, Airworthiness Approval of Positioning and Navigation Systems.

Equipment approved in accordance with TSO-C115a does not meet the

requirements of TSO-C129. Visual flight rules (VFR) and hand-held GPS

systems are not authorized for IFR navigation, instrument approaches, or

as a principal instrument flight reference.



Jim Parker

------

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:21 am Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

There are more benefits to an actual IFR certified GPS. If you are 

flying victor airways you are stuck with the published MEA. If you go 

off-route, i.e. direct, you are limited to the controller's MEA, which 

isn't published. IF you have an IFR GPS lower minimum altitudes are 

published, often 1-2000 ft lower here in the West.

You can't file to navigate IFR by anything but certified 

equipment...which means VOR/localizer in the lower 48 states in most 

cases. In the flat lands you can easily ask for a vector on a specific 

heading and usually get it. IF your destination, or any alternate you 

need to divert to has a VOR/LOC/ILS, fine, but all the smaller airports 

are limited pretty much to GPS, or VOR with high minimums.

Most approach and departure facilities have strict routing in and out of 

the area, that they need you on. Usually airways on departures, and 

unpublished arrival "gates" in between airways. So, most anything works 

enroute, but in the terminal environment, when ever the weather makes 

them busy, they don't have time for hand holding.

On 7/18/2019 6:37 AM, Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm not IFR rated, and it's been weeks since I stayed in *any* hotel, so 

 I'm not qualified to answer that. But my layman's understanding is that 

 you can ask ATC for a 'heading' to fly direct to your IFR destination, 

 and they'd wink, nod, & give you the clearance. Many years ago, my 

 airline pilot Swift partner used to do that with a VFR LORAN receiver. 

 Wouldn't be the same thing as actually filing GPS-direct, but has the 

 same effect.

 

 You could be right about experimentals; I just haven't heard about it.

 

 Charlie

 

 On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 8:15 AM GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com 

 <mailto:fly4grins(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

 

         Hi Charlie et al-

         It's been a while since I had my fingers in this stuff, but

         isn't the requirement for certificated GPS only for terminal

         operations?Â  IIRC, experimental GPS is fine for en route, but

         some other means is required for finding the runway.

 

     TIA

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

argoldman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:12 pm Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

Greetings all,

  

 

  On a different but related subject,

 

  

 

  Assume a Garmin GNS 430W talking to a Dynon Skyview through an ARINC 429 device, and ADSB in and out

 

  What, if anything is necessary for the EAB builder to get it certified for IFR (enroute and approach) use as well as ADSB certification/verification?--- or can we just go fly in the system?

  Thanks in advance

  Rich

 

   

 

   

 

  --

jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:21 pm Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

If the "Operating Limitations" document that was issued to you by the

FAA (DAR?) include the IFR approval, you can just go fly.  If not, you

have to petition for a new Operating Limitations" document to be issued

that does include that wording.  



Odds are that the FAA will want a DAR sign-off.  But given what you have

in your plane, that should be just a formality.  (Assuming, of course,

you already meet the VFR Day/Night requirements as well, since those are

prerequisites to IFR approval.)



Jim Parker



------

argoldman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:49 pm Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

Thanks, Somewhere in the back of my mind is that there is a procedure that you have to go through to verify that the adsb is operating correctly. Plane not flying yet-- almost done (15 years).

  

 

  Rich

 

   

 

   

 

  --

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:20 pm Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

This comes up from time to time. Most operating limitations in the past 

15 years require the 91.205(b) Day VFR equipment, and then state that to 

fly at night VFR you must meet 91.205(c) and to fly IFR must meet 91.205 

(d) requirements. Of course you have to altimeter certified to IFR 

standards and static system that meets the leak down requirements. 

Everything else is dependent on the airspace you will fly in, what 

ground nav equipment you will utilize, etc. GPS certification is by the 

manufacturer and the manufacturer's instructions.

Essentially, there is no airframe certification requirement, it is the 

certification of required equipment that is to be installed.

ADSB is not an IFR requirement, it is an airspace requirement. You have 

to install ADS-B equipment that meets the performance requirements of 

the TSO. Certification is same as transponder, plus it is wise to get 

the email report that it is working correctly.

As for sign off....none required, but because some of the equipment 

install may be considered "major" under your operating limitations, you 

may need to place a call to the FSDO to get how many hours they want you 

to do Phase I testing of the changed equipment. You will spend more than 

they required learning any IFR GPS.



On 7/18/2019 1:57 PM, jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.com wrote:

[quote] 

 

 If the "Operating Limitations" document that was issued to you by the

 FAA (DAR?) include the IFR approval, you can just go fly.  If not, you

 have to petition for a new Operating Limitations" document to be issued

 that does include that wording.

 

 Odds are that the FAA will want a DAR sign-off.  But given what you have

 in your plane, that should be just a formality.  (Assuming, of course,

 you already meet the VFR Day/Night requirements as well, since those are

 prerequisites to IFR approval.)

 

 Jim Parker

 

 

 

 ------

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:34 pm Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

It depends....if you are talking a new 1090ES transponder/ADSB, or 

adding a UAT ADSB to existing currently certified transponder. There is 

certification of any transponder, at install and every 2 years. Doesn't 

hurt anything but your wallet to have avionics shop do a ramp check and 

certify the transponder/encoder for VFR. ADSB is separate.

You need to ensure that all of the parameter programing is correct, for 

tail number, aircraft size and speed. Then you fly in "rule airspace"

which can be under/over Class C or Class B "mode C 3o mile radius" or 

just go up to 10,000 feet most anywhere not real close to mountains.

Then request a report via email. You don't have to do it, but if you 

don't, and something isn't right, you will get a letter telling you that 

you aren't meeting requirements.



On 7/18/2019 3:48 PM, argoldman(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks, Somewhere in the back of my mind is that there is a procedure 

 that you have to go through to verify that the adsb is operating 

 correctly. Plane not flying yet-- almost done (15 years)Disappointed.

 

 Rich

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

donjohnston

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 232

Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:25 am Post subject: Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

 	  argoldman(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Thanks, Somewhere in the back of my mind is that there is a procedure that you have to go through to verify that the adsb is operating correctly. Plane not flying yet-- almost done (15 years).

   -- 	




I used this to verify my ADS-B install. 



https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/paprrequest.aspx

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