Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Z-13/8 review request

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jcarne



Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

Hello everyone, first time poster here. I would love it if you guys would review my Z-13/8. Thanks in advance!

This diagram is Bob's Z-13/8 with VERY FEW modifications. I'll point them out in the pics below.

First here are the pics, sorry they are so big but I'm thinking this is the only way you will be able to read anything.

I am aware of how to size wires per AC 43.13. However, I went with what the manufacturer recommended instead
(which was always bigger than AC43.13 or right on). This is why I have at times two different gauges for the same circuit size.
Yes I know in most instances I can use 22 awg where I speced 20 awg. I already have plenty of both sizes so no worry there.

Would you all mind taking some time to look it over for any blatant errors? Mega thank you for taking the time.

First up is the top of the diagram where the backup B&C SD-8 is.
The changes here are the shunt and ANL positions. I have already
installed two ANL fuses on my firewall as I would prefer both battery
and alternator lines be protected. Many find it unnecessary which may
be the case but it's already done and installed. I have also removed the
shunt for the backup alternator because if I am ever running on it I will
know my e-bus is sized right for the current and I can simply monitor bus
voltage. If you REALLY think I need a shunt give me a good reason and I
may install one but at this time I don't see the point.

1 by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

Next up is the lower meatier part of the diagram. I eliminated the electronic
ignition and put in for mags instead. I know many like having a dedicated
start button but I really like the left mag also being your start switch. This method
is also wired such that the right mag must be off to send power to the starter. As far as
mag switches and the batt/alt switch they are locking toggles. The mags lock in off and
on with momentary up. The batt/alt switch locks in all three positions. All switches are
Honeywell TL series. You will also notice that I changed to a B&C main 60amp
alternator and eliminated the low voltage lamp since Dynon will do this on
its own. Also, the battery bus only has a cigarette USB plug and a dome
light on it. Finally, Bob shows a 20awg wire feeding the E-bus from the main
bus which seemed quite small to me. I up sized it to 14awg.

2 by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

On to the buses. Here is the main bus. I also tried to include any future
provisions such as the second EFIS even though I don't currently plan it.
The IFD-440 however is in the plan and I'm installing a tray for it now. You
will also notice the amp numbers on the right side of the description. This is
what I could find for MAXIMUM current draw on the device.

main by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

Now the E-bus. I really tried to minimize what I put on this to the essentials but really the end goal was to keep it below 7 ish amps
(which is why the xsponder is still there) So far the MAXIMUM current amounts add up to 7.35 amps not including the contactor
which is fairly low. (the master at this point would be off so don't worry about that 1 amp) At 2500 engine RPM by the B&C numbers
you should get about 7.6 amps. It's also worth noting that in my emergency checklist for this situation I would
unplug/turn off everything on the battery bus.

ebus by Jereme Carne, on Flickr

I also am posting the picture of my panel layout if that helps anyone.

FINAL PANEL by Jereme Carne, on Flickr
I posted this on another forum first and someone brought up two questions which could probably be answered here.

1. The e-bus is being fed with 2 15 amp fuses (one on the bat bus and one on the e-bus). Is this a mistake?
2. Can someone explain why there is a fusible link and a CB on the alt field circuit?

Seriously thanks to everyone who helps me look over this big part of my project. As always if you have questions or comments I welcome it all! Very Happy


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

On 8/28/2019 10:22 PM, jcarne wrote:
Quote:


Hello everyone, first time poster here. I would love it if you guys would review my Z-13/8. Thanks in advance!

This diagram is Bob's Z-13/8 with VERY FEW modifications. I'll point them out in the pics below.

First here are the pics, sorry they are so big but I'm thinking this is the only way you will be able to read anything.

I am aware of how to size wires per AC 43.13. However, I went with what the manufacturer recommended instead
(which was always bigger than AC43.13 or right on). This is why I have at times two different gauges for the same circuit size.
Yes I know in most instances I can use 22 awg where I speced 20 awg. I already have plenty of both sizes so no worry there.

Would you all mind taking some time to look it over for any blatant errors? Mega thank you for taking the time.

First up is the top of the diagram where the backup B&C SD-8 is.
The changes here are the shunt and ANL positions. I have already
installed two ANL fuses on my firewall as I would prefer both battery
and alternator lines be protected. Many find it unnecessary which may
be the case but it's already done and installed. I have also removed the
shunt for the backup alternator because if I am ever running on it I will
know my e-bus is sized right for the current and I can simply monitor bus
voltage. If you REALLY think I need a shunt give me a good reason and I
may install one but at this time I don't see the point.

(https://flic.kr/p/2h6xoGh)1 (https://flic.kr/p/2h6xoGh) by Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr

Next up is the lower meatier part of the diagram. I eliminated the electronic
ignition and put in for mags instead. I know many like having a dedicated
start button but I really like the left mag also being your start switch. This method
is also wired such that the right mag must be off to send power to the starter. As far as
mag switches and the batt/alt switch they are locking toggles. The mags lock in off and
on with momentary up. The batt/alt switch locks in all three positions. All switches are
Honeywell TL series. You will also notice that I changed to a B&C main 60amp
alternator and eliminated the low voltage lamp since Dynon will do this on
its own. Also, the battery bus only has a cigarette USB plug and a dome
light on it. Finally, Bob shows a 20awg wire feeding the E-bus from the main
bus which seemed quite small to me. I up sized it to 14awg.

(https://flic.kr/p/2h6zWqs)2 (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zWqs) by Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr

On to the buses. Here is the main bus. I also tried to include any future
provisions such as the second EFIS even though I don't currently plan it.
The IFD-440 however is in the plan and I'm installing a tray for it now. You
will also notice the amp numbers on the right side of the description. This is
what I could find for MAXIMUM current draw on the device.

(https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeK3)main (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeK3) by Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr

Now the E-bus. I really tried to minimize what I put on this to the essentials but really the end goal was to keep it below 7 ish amps
(which is why the xsponder is still there) So far the MAXIMUM current amounts add up to 7.35 amps not including the contactor
which is fairly low. (the master at this point would be off so don't worry about that 1 amp) At 2500 engine RPM by the B&C numbers
you should get about 7.6 amps. It's also worth noting that in my emergency checklist for this situation I would
unplug/turn off everything on the battery bus.

(https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeLf)ebus (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeLf) by Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr

I also am posting the picture of my panel layout if that helps anyone.

(https://flic.kr/p/2gV4VSZ)FINAL PANEL (https://flic.kr/p/2gV4VSZ) by Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr
I posted this on another forum first and someone brought up two questions which could probably be answered here.

1. The e-bus is being fed with 2 15 amp fuses (one on the bat bus and one on the e-bus). Is this a mistake?
2. Can someone explain why there is a fusible link and a CB on the alt field circuit?

Seriously thanks to everyone who helps me look over this big part of my project. As always if you have questions or comments I welcome it all! Very Happy

Quickie on the field circuit: The link protects the wire between the bus

to the breaker; otherwise a short in that wire would see the full fury
of available current on the bus. The CB is there so the overvoltage
module can trip it, opening the field circuit, if there's an overvoltage
fault in the regulator. The field circuit is one of the few circuits
where you might get a 'false positive' due to a short term transient, so
a single reset of the protection device could be warranted.

Philosophy (at least for most of us on this forum) is that virtually all
other activations of circuit protection should be analyzed on the
ground. Any item that's flight-critical should have a backup, meaning
that troubleshooting (circuit resetting) in flight is unnecessary.

Haven't looked closely at your ebus circuit yet, but a 15A  fuse is not
terribly robust, so a fault on the bus could conceivably blow both fuses
at once. Not saying to fuse bigger than the wire can stand, but you
might consider bigger feed wires and/or use circuit protection that has
a much longer time constant than a fuse (ANL type device, or my
preference: fusible link).

Welcome aboard!

Charlie
(like I promised...)

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1435
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

Two 15 amp fuses are not a mistake. Suppose that a short circuit blows the
battery fuse. Now what is going to stop high current from flowing through the diode?
I agree with you that a shunt is not needed. An ammeter is good for
troubleshooting. But fly the plane and save troubleshooting until on the
ground. The EFIS voltmeter is all that is needed to tell if the alternator is working or not.
I agree with Charlie that the 15 amp fuses are too small. When two fuses
are in series (main fuse and branch fuse), a hard short circuit could blow both
unless there is a very large difference in fuse sizes. Having fuses in series is usually not a good idea.
The ANL fuse for the main power bus is an unnecessary failure point. But
since you have already installed it, insulate it well. Try to eliminate potential
sparks after a forced landing.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Joe Gores
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.co
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:15 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

Jereme,

I'm a complete novice when it comes to the actual electronics involved,
so I'll leave it to Bob and the other experts to comment on those
aspects.

But I did notice on the e-bus diagram that your GPS is NOT wired to the
e-bus. If you're flying IFR (or at night), wouldn't the ability to
navigate be fairly critical at that point? Personally, I think I'd want
that on the e-bus, but maybe I'm nuts...

I also noticed you DO have the Garmin G5 on the e-bus. I'm sure you
know Garmin offers a backup battery, with up to 4 hours endurance. If
you include that battery in your plans, could you safely remove the G5
from the e-bus? I know it's a tiny load, but every little bit helps,
right?

Jim Parker


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

On 8/28/2019 10:56 PM, Charlie England wrote:
Quote:
On 8/28/2019 10:22 PM, jcarne wrote:
>
> <jeremejcarne(at)gmail.com>
>
> Hello everyone, first time poster here.  I would love it if you guys
> would review my Z-13/8.  Thanks in advance!
>
> This diagram is Bob's Z-13/8 with VERY FEW modifications.  I'll point
> them out in the pics below.
>
> First here are the pics, sorry they are so big but I'm thinking this
> is the only way you will be able to read anything.
>
> I am aware of how to size wires per AC 43.13.  However, I went with
> what the manufacturer recommended instead
> (which was always bigger than AC43.13 or right on).  This is why I
> have at times two different gauges for the same circuit size.
> Yes I know in most instances I can use 22 awg where I speced 20 awg. 
> I already have plenty of both sizes so no worry there.
>
> Would you all mind taking some time to look it over for any blatant
> errors?  Mega thank you for taking the time.
>
> First up is the top of the diagram where the backup B&C SD-8 is.
> The changes here are the shunt and ANL positions.  I have already
> installed two ANL fuses on my firewall as I would prefer both battery
> and alternator lines be protected.  Many find it unnecessary which may
> be the case but it's already done and installed.  I have also removed
> the
> shunt for the backup alternator because if I am ever running on it I
> will
> know my e-bus is sized right for the current and I can simply monitor
> bus
> voltage.  If you REALLY think I need a shunt give me a good reason and I
> may install one but at this time I don't see the point.
>
>   (https://flic.kr/p/2h6xoGh)1 (https://flic.kr/p/2h6xoGh) by Jereme
> Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr
>
> Next up is the lower meatier part of the diagram.  I eliminated the
> electronic
> ignition and put in for mags instead.  I know many like having a
> dedicated
> start button but I really like the left mag also being your start
> switch.  This method
> is also wired such that the right mag must be off to send power to
> the starter.  As far as
> mag switches and the batt/alt switch they are locking toggles. The
> mags lock in off and
> on with momentary up.  The batt/alt switch locks in all three
> positions.  All switches are
> Honeywell TL series.  You will also notice that I changed to a B&C
> main 60amp
> alternator and eliminated the low voltage lamp since Dynon will do
> this on
> its own.  Also, the battery bus only has a cigarette USB plug and a dome
> light on it.  Finally, Bob shows a 20awg wire feeding the E-bus from
> the main
> bus which seemed quite small to me.  I up sized it to 14awg.
>
>   (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zWqs)2 (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zWqs) by Jereme
> Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr
>
> On to the buses.  Here is the main bus.  I also tried to include any
> future
> provisions such as the second EFIS even though I don't currently plan
> it.
> The IFD-440 however is in the plan and I'm installing a tray for it
> now.  You
> will also notice the amp numbers on the right side of the
> description.  This is
> what I could find for MAXIMUM current draw on the device.
>
>   (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeK3)main (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeK3) by
> Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr
>
> Now the E-bus.  I really tried to minimize what I put on this to the
> essentials but really the end goal was to keep it below 7 ish amps
> (which is why the xsponder is still there)  So far the MAXIMUM
> current amounts add up to 7.35 amps not including the contactor
> which is fairly low.  (the master at this point would be off so don't
> worry about that 1 amp)  At 2500 engine RPM by the B&C numbers
> you should get about 7.6 amps.  It's also worth noting that in my
> emergency checklist for this situation I would
> unplug/turn off everything on the battery bus.
>
>   (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeLf)ebus (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeLf) by
> Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr
>
> I also am posting the picture of my panel layout if that helps anyone.
>
>   (https://flic.kr/p/2gV4VSZ)FINAL PANEL (https://flic.kr/p/2gV4VSZ)
> by Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on
> Flickr
> I posted this on another forum first and someone brought up two
> questions which could probably be answered here.
>
> 1. The e-bus is being fed with 2 15 amp fuses (one on the bat bus and
> one on the e-bus).  Is this a mistake?
> 2. Can someone explain why there is a fusible link and a CB on the
> alt field circuit?
>
> Seriously thanks to everyone who helps me look over this big part of
> my project.  As always if you have questions or comments I welcome it
> all!  Very Happy
>
Quickie on the field circuit: The link protects the wire between the
bus to the breaker; otherwise a short in that wire would see the full
fury of available current on the bus. The CB is there so the
overvoltage module can trip it, opening the field circuit, if there's
an overvoltage fault in the regulator. The field circuit is one of the
few circuits where you might get a 'false positive' due to a short
term transient, so a single reset of the protection device could be
warranted.

Philosophy (at least for most of us on this forum) is that virtually
all other activations of circuit protection should be analyzed on the
ground. Any item that's flight-critical should have a backup, meaning
that troubleshooting (circuit resetting) in flight is unnecessary.

Haven't looked closely at your ebus circuit yet, but a 15A  fuse is
not terribly robust, so a fault on the bus could conceivably blow both
fuses at once. Not saying to fuse bigger than the wire can stand, but
you might consider bigger feed wires and/or use circuit protection
that has a much longer time constant than a fuse (ANL type device, or
my preference: fusible link).

Welcome aboard!

Charlie
(like I promised...)
More stuff, as time permits & we see stuff. Apologies if info gets

duplicated from others' posts.

Should have mentioned wire sizes on the field circuit: 'rule of thumb'
around here is keeping wire size to minimum #22, for physical
durability/workability. So #22 fuse link>#18 wire>CB>#20>field. You can
drop to #20 after the CB because a 5A CB will protect #20 wire.

General 'fusing' (circuit protection) thinking: Always remember what the
devices are supposed to do, and ask whether they're proper and in the
proper location for the job. ex: Endurance bus feeds. The #13 wire from
the main bus to the endurance bus is unprotected, and fed by a #4 wire.
The 15A fuse at the alt feed point fuses the bus from that source, but
its job is to protect the *wire*, so it should be at the other end of
the wire. (Which means that it's not needed; you already have a 15A fuse
at the main bat bus (source) *and another* 15A fuse at the bat
contactor, feeding the main bat bus.) I'd consider using a fuse link at
the bat contactor to protect #14 wire, and ask whether you really need
additional fusing on the path to the endurance bus. Logic: Even if a
catastrophic failure takes out the link, the only extra losses would be
your dome light & cigarette plug.

Oh yeah; might be a good idea to ponder future actual use of the
cigarette plug. Most lighter sockets are set up for much higher currents
than 5A. One thing I've used mine for is 'quick & dirty' ground power
(plane is wired differently from your diagram, allowing the cig socket
to power the main bus without powering up the master contactor).  If you
ever think you'll need to charge the battery through the cig socket,
upsizing that wire & fuse might be worth considering.

Current shunts: My purchased -6 has one (rarely reads correctly due to
flaky fuse holders); my under-construction -7 will not have any. I was
an electronics tech in several previous lives, and very rarely saw any
use for an ammeter unless I was troubleshooting/repairing an
already-failed device. Trying to use one while literally 'on the fly'
makes zero sense to me. Devices in an a/c will either work correctly or
they won't. Current variations are way down the list of possible
troubleshooting methods to find a defective device while in flight
(like, don't even try). Flight critical devices should have backups;
non-flight-critical ones are...non-critical.

Charlie

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:20 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

On 8/29/2019 1:12 PM, Charlie England wrote:
Quote:
On 8/28/2019 10:56 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> On 8/28/2019 10:22 PM, jcarne wrote:
>>
>> <jeremejcarne(at)gmail.com>
>>
>> Hello everyone, first time poster here.  I would love it if you guys
>> would review my Z-13/8.  Thanks in advance!
>>
>> This diagram is Bob's Z-13/8 with VERY FEW modifications. I'll point
>> them out in the pics below.
>>
>> First here are the pics, sorry they are so big but I'm thinking this
>> is the only way you will be able to read anything.
>>
>> I am aware of how to size wires per AC 43.13.  However, I went with
>> what the manufacturer recommended instead
>> (which was always bigger than AC43.13 or right on).  This is why I
>> have at times two different gauges for the same circuit size.
>> Yes I know in most instances I can use 22 awg where I speced 20
>> awg.  I already have plenty of both sizes so no worry there.
>>
>> Would you all mind taking some time to look it over for any blatant
>> errors?  Mega thank you for taking the time.
>>
>> First up is the top of the diagram where the backup B&C SD-8 is.
>> The changes here are the shunt and ANL positions.  I have already
>> installed two ANL fuses on my firewall as I would prefer both battery
>> and alternator lines be protected.  Many find it unnecessary which may
>> be the case but it's already done and installed.  I have also
>> removed the
>> shunt for the backup alternator because if I am ever running on it I
>> will
>> know my e-bus is sized right for the current and I can simply
>> monitor bus
>> voltage.  If you REALLY think I need a shunt give me a good reason
>> and I
>> may install one but at this time I don't see the point.
>>
>>   (https://flic.kr/p/2h6xoGh)1 (https://flic.kr/p/2h6xoGh) by Jereme
>> Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr
>>
>> Next up is the lower meatier part of the diagram.  I eliminated the
>> electronic
>> ignition and put in for mags instead.  I know many like having a
>> dedicated
>> start button but I really like the left mag also being your start
>> switch.  This method
>> is also wired such that the right mag must be off to send power to
>> the starter.  As far as
>> mag switches and the batt/alt switch they are locking toggles. The
>> mags lock in off and
>> on with momentary up.  The batt/alt switch locks in all three
>> positions.  All switches are
>> Honeywell TL series.  You will also notice that I changed to a B&C
>> main 60amp
>> alternator and eliminated the low voltage lamp since Dynon will do
>> this on
>> its own.  Also, the battery bus only has a cigarette USB plug and a
>> dome
>> light on it.  Finally, Bob shows a 20awg wire feeding the E-bus from
>> the main
>> bus which seemed quite small to me.  I up sized it to 14awg.
>>
>>   (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zWqs)2 (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zWqs) by Jereme
>> Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr
>>
>> On to the buses.  Here is the main bus.  I also tried to include any
>> future
>> provisions such as the second EFIS even though I don't currently
>> plan it.
>> The IFD-440 however is in the plan and I'm installing a tray for it
>> now.  You
>> will also notice the amp numbers on the right side of the
>> description.  This is
>> what I could find for MAXIMUM current draw on the device.
>>
>>   (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeK3)main (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeK3) by
>> Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr
>>
>> Now the E-bus.  I really tried to minimize what I put on this to the
>> essentials but really the end goal was to keep it below 7 ish amps
>> (which is why the xsponder is still there)  So far the MAXIMUM
>> current amounts add up to 7.35 amps not including the contactor
>> which is fairly low.  (the master at this point would be off so
>> don't worry about that 1 amp)  At 2500 engine RPM by the B&C numbers
>> you should get about 7.6 amps.  It's also worth noting that in my
>> emergency checklist for this situation I would
>> unplug/turn off everything on the battery bus.
>>
>>   (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeLf)ebus (https://flic.kr/p/2h6zeLf) by
>> Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr
>>
>> I also am posting the picture of my panel layout if that helps anyone.
>>
>>   (https://flic.kr/p/2gV4VSZ)FINAL PANEL (https://flic.kr/p/2gV4VSZ)
>> by Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on
>> Flickr
>>
>>
>> I posted this on another forum first and someone brought up two
>> questions which could probably be answered here.
>>
>> 1. The e-bus is being fed with 2 15 amp fuses (one on the bat bus
>> and one on the e-bus).  Is this a mistake?
>> 2. Can someone explain why there is a fusible link and a CB on the
>> alt field circuit?
>>
>> Seriously thanks to everyone who helps me look over this big part of
>> my project.  As always if you have questions or comments I welcome
>> it all!  Very Happy
>>
> Quickie on the field circuit: The link protects the wire between the
> bus to the breaker; otherwise a short in that wire would see the full
> fury of available current on the bus. The CB is there so the
> overvoltage module can trip it, opening the field circuit, if there's
> an overvoltage fault in the regulator. The field circuit is one of
> the few circuits where you might get a 'false positive' due to a
> short term transient, so a single reset of the protection device
> could be warranted.
>
> Philosophy (at least for most of us on this forum) is that virtually
> all other activations of circuit protection should be analyzed on the
> ground. Any item that's flight-critical should have a backup, meaning
> that troubleshooting (circuit resetting) in flight is unnecessary.
>
> Haven't looked closely at your ebus circuit yet, but a 15A  fuse is
> not terribly robust, so a fault on the bus could conceivably blow
> both fuses at once. Not saying to fuse bigger than the wire can
> stand, but you might consider bigger feed wires and/or use circuit
> protection that has a much longer time constant than a fuse (ANL type
> device, or my preference: fusible link).
>
> Welcome aboard!
>
> Charlie
> (like I promised...)
More stuff, as time permits & we see stuff. Apologies if info gets
duplicated from others' posts.

Should have mentioned wire sizes on the field circuit: 'rule of thumb'
around here is keeping wire size to minimum #22, for physical
durability/workability. So #22 fuse link>#18 wire>CB>#20>field. You
can drop to #20 after the CB because a 5A CB will protect #20 wire.

General 'fusing' (circuit protection) thinking: Always remember what
the devices are supposed to do, and ask whether they're proper and in
the proper location for the job. ex: Endurance bus feeds. The #13 wire
from the main bus to the endurance bus is unprotected, and fed by a #4
wire. The 15A fuse at the alt feed point fuses the bus from that
source, but its job is to protect the *wire*, so it should be at the
other end of the wire. (Which means that it's not needed; you already
have a 15A fuse at the main bat bus (source) *and another* 15A fuse at
the bat contactor, feeding the main bat bus.) I'd consider using a
fuse link at the bat contactor to protect #14 wire, and ask whether
you really need additional fusing on the path to the endurance bus.
Logic: Even if a catastrophic failure takes out the link, the only
extra losses would be your dome light & cigarette plug.

Oh yeah; might be a good idea to ponder future actual use of the
cigarette plug. Most lighter sockets are set up for much higher
currents than 5A. One thing I've used mine for is 'quick & dirty'
ground power (plane is wired differently from your diagram, allowing
the cig socket to power the main bus without powering up the master
contactor).  If you ever think you'll need to charge the battery
through the cig socket, upsizing that wire & fuse might be worth
considering.

Current shunts: My purchased -6 has one (rarely reads correctly due to
flaky fuse holders); my under-construction -7 will not have any. I was
an electronics tech in several previous lives, and very rarely saw any
use for an ammeter unless I was troubleshooting/repairing an
already-failed device. Trying to use one while literally 'on the fly'
makes zero sense to me. Devices in an a/c will either work correctly
or they won't. Current variations are way down the list of possible
troubleshooting methods to find a defective device while in flight
(like, don't even try). Flight critical devices should have backups;
non-flight-critical ones are...non-critical.

Charlie
Oh, forgot: You can reduce the number of failure points in the primary

alt B lead path by moving its ANL tie point to the shunt side of the
other ANL. As drawn, the alt current must pass through both ANLs, and
all their related terminals, to get to the airframe's B+ circuit. Also,
*if* I'm reading the drawing correctly, the shunt in its current (pardon
the pun) position will show you the alt's charge current going into the
battery, but will not show you the total current output from the
alternator. If that's your goal, then nothing wrong with it. But since
the bus feed is before the shunt, the shunt won't see that load.
Remember, during normal ops, the alternator carries *all* the electrical
loads of the a/c; the battery is only supplying current when starting,
or after an alternator failure (or total loads exceed alternator
capacity & output voltage drops below battery voltage).

Charlie

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jcarne



Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

Quote:

to the breaker; otherwise a short in that wire would see the full fury
of available current on the bus. The CB is there so the overvoltage
module can trip it, opening the field circuit, if there's an overvoltage
fault in the regulator. The field circuit is one of the few circuits
where you might get a 'false positive' due to a short term transient, so
a single reset of the protection device could be warranted.

Philosophy (at least for most of us on this forum) is that virtually all
other activations of circuit protection should be analyzed on the
ground. Any item that's flight-critical should have a backup, meaning
that troubleshooting (circuit resetting) in flight is unnecessary.

Haven't looked closely at your ebus circuit yet, but a 15A  fuse is not
terribly robust, so a fault on the bus could conceivably blow both fuses
at once. Not saying to fuse bigger than the wire can stand, but you
might consider bigger feed wires and/or use circuit protection that has
a much longer time constant than a fuse (ANL type device, or my
preference: fusible link).

Welcome aboard!

Charlie
(like I promised...)

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Ok I don't think I can quote multiple posts at once. If that is not the case I would love to hear how to do it.

That description on the field circuit makes sense now Charlie. I am also in the camp that troubleshooting should be done on the ground. This is a big part of why I'm using fuses instead of CBs. I did not change the two 15 amp fuses to feed the e-bus from what Bob has drawn. The e-bus will be no more than 7-8 amps so I'm not sure up sizing is needed. However, I am by no means an expert here, I simply went with what Bob had on the drawing in that location.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcarne



Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

user9253 wrote:
Two 15 amp fuses are not a mistake. Suppose that a short circuit blows the
battery fuse. Now what is going to stop high current from flowing through the diode?
I agree with you that a shunt is not needed. An ammeter is good for
troubleshooting. But fly the plane and save troubleshooting until on the
ground. The EFIS voltmeter is all that is needed to tell if the alternator is working or not.
I agree with Charlie that the 15 amp fuses are too small. When two fuses
are in series (main fuse and branch fuse), a hard short circuit could blow both
unless there is a very large difference in fuse sizes. Having fuses in series is usually not a good idea.
The ANL fuse for the main power bus is an unnecessary failure point. But
since you have already installed it, insulate it well. Try to eliminate potential
sparks after a forced landing.


Ok I think I put out some confusion on the whole 15 amp fuse deal so let me lay it out more clearly.

Now that I look at my drawing there is actually 3 15 amp fuses to feed the E-bus. I added in an inline fuse between the battery and the battery bus. My reasoning being that I AM NOT going to mount my battery bus on the firewall but instead inside the cockpit, therefor I felt it necessary to protect the wire which will be longer than 6 inches. Now the way Bob has it drawn in one of his versions is off of the battery bus there is a 15 amp fuse that feeds to the e-bus where another 15 amp fuse connects the feed to the e-bus. That being said, I am all ears if there is a better way of doing this or if I simply need to upsize all them fuses? Could a guy not just do a fusible link off the battery side of the master relay instead of the 15 amp inline? This may be a better approach here.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcarne



Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.co wrote:
Jereme,

I'm a complete novice when it comes to the actual electronics involved,
so I'll leave it to Bob and the other experts to comment on those
aspects.

But I did notice on the e-bus diagram that your GPS is NOT wired to the
e-bus. If you're flying IFR (or at night), wouldn't the ability to
navigate be fairly critical at that point? Personally, I think I'd want
that on the e-bus, but maybe I'm nuts...

I also noticed you DO have the Garmin G5 on the e-bus. I'm sure you
know Garmin offers a backup battery, with up to 4 hours endurance. If
you include that battery in your plans, could you safely remove the G5
from the e-bus? I know it's a tiny load, but every little bit helps,
right?

Jim Parker


It is my understanding that the backup battery I will have on the Skyview will allow me to still navigate (I'm going to look into the manual on this one though so don't take my word for it). Is it legal for IFR work, no. If I'm only running on my e-bus for some reason in IFR do I care about the legality of it, heck no.

I would love to have the IFD-440 on the e-bus but I think it simply draws too much current. I'm only able to put about 8 amps on the e-bus.

You are correct on the G5 but I want my attitude indicators to have multiple power sources if I'm going to fly IFR. It is such a small load that it still seems worth it to me even despite having a battery backup. However, this is something I could move if needed.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1623
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

The Skyview will allow you to navigate IF you have either the Dynon 250
or 2020 GPS installed as its primary GPS source driving its moving map.
Totally selectable between Dynon GPS and IFD for navigation.

On 8/29/2019 5:15 PM, jcarne wrote:
Quote:


>
It is my understanding that the backup battery I will have on the Skyview will allow me to still navigate (I'm going to look into the manual on this one though so don't take my word for it). Is it legal for IFR work, no. If I'm only running on my e-bus for some reason in IFR do I care about the legality of it, heck no.

I would love to have the IFD-440 on the e-bus but I think it simply draws too much current. I'm only able to put about 8 amps on the e-bus.

You are correct on the G5 but I want my attitude indicators to have multiple power sources if I'm going to fly IFR. It is such a small load that it still seems worth it to me even despite having a battery backup. However, this is something I could move if needed.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=491128#491128











- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcarne



Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

Quote:
Charlie
Oh, forgot: You can reduce the number of failure points in the primary

alt B lead path by moving its ANL tie point to the shunt side of the
other ANL. As drawn, the alt current must pass through both ANLs, and
all their related terminals, to get to the airframe's B+ circuit. Also,
*if* I'm reading the drawing correctly, the shunt in its current (pardon
the pun) position will show you the alt's charge current going into the
battery, but will not show you the total current output from the
alternator. If that's your goal, then nothing wrong with it. But since
the bus feed is before the shunt, the shunt won't see that load.
Remember, during normal ops, the alternator carries *all* the electrical
loads of the a/c; the battery is only supplying current when starting,
or after an alternator failure (or total loads exceed alternator
capacity & output voltage drops below battery voltage).

Charlie

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Yes this is one thing I have gona back and forth on. It was either make the current from the alternator go through two ANL devices to charge the battery or only 1 to feed the bus. I'm not sure I follow the reduction in failure points. If you take the alt b lead to the shunt side of the lower ANL won't that result in the alt b lead having to go through two ANL devices to feed the bus? If the lower ANL tripped or failed wouldn't that also result in no battery or primary alt power to the bus?

The shunt in the current position is what I intended when I installed it. In the end I don't really see the shunt as that valuable of a tool so I'll keep it where it is I suppose.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcarne



Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

Kellym wrote:
The Skyview will allow you to navigate IF you have either the Dynon 250
or 2020 GPS installed as its primary GPS source driving its moving map.
Totally selectable between Dynon GPS and IFD for navigation.
Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=491128#491128


[/quote]

Kelly, thanks for the clarification. I will be running their GPS-2020


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcarne



Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

Ok I saved this one for last as there is a lot of GREAT info in this one Charlie.

Quote:

duplicated from others' posts.

Should have mentioned wire sizes on the field circuit: 'rule of thumb'
around here is keeping wire size to minimum #22, for physical
durability/workability. So #22 fuse link>#18 wire>CB>#20>field. You can
drop to #20 after the CB because a 5A CB will protect #20 wire. (understood)

General 'fusing' (circuit protection) thinking: Always remember what the
devices are supposed to do, and ask whether they're proper and in the
proper location for the job. ex: Endurance bus feeds. The #13 wire from
the main bus to the endurance bus is unprotected, and fed by a #4 wire. (I'm a bit confused on this last sentence. The main bus to e-bus feeder is 14 awg (which I upsized from Bob's 20awg as it seemed a bit small to me). If this is a mistake let me know.)
The 15A fuse at the alt feed point fuses the bus from that source, but
its job is to protect the *wire*, so it should be at the other end of
the wire. (Which means that it's not needed; you already have a 15A fuse
at the main bat bus (source) *and another* 15A fuse at the bat
contactor, feeding the main bat bus.) I'd consider using a fuse link at
the bat contactor to protect #14 wire, and ask whether you really need
additional fusing on the path to the endurance bus. Logic: Even if a
catastrophic failure takes out the link, the only extra losses would be
your dome light & cigarette plug. Ya you have summed up my confusion on this one pretty well. I am now thinking fuselink at the battery contactor but figured Bob had some sort of reason for the two fuses between the two buses.

Oh yeah; might be a good idea to ponder future actual use of the
cigarette plug. Most lighter sockets are set up for much higher currents
than 5A. One thing I've used mine for is 'quick & dirty' ground power
(plane is wired differently from your diagram, allowing the cig socket
to power the main bus without powering up the master contactor).  If you
ever think you'll need to charge the battery through the cig socket,
upsizing that wire & fuse might be worth considering. Oh how interesting, hadn't thought of that. I will ponder that one.

Current shunts: My purchased -6 has one (rarely reads correctly due to
flaky fuse holders); my under-construction -7 will not have any. I was
an electronics tech in several previous lives, and very rarely saw any
use for an ammeter unless I was troubleshooting/repairing an
already-failed device. Trying to use one while literally 'on the fly'
makes zero sense to me. Devices in an a/c will either work correctly or
they won't. Current variations are way down the list of possible
troubleshooting methods to find a defective device while in flight
(like, don't even try). Flight critical devices should have backups;
non-flight-critical ones are...non-critical. Totally agree, at this point I think the shunt is only there since I already have it installed.

Charlie

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


For anyone else that is interested here is my firewall and what I have to work with. There is a lot of time in "fireproofing" this bad boy which is why I'm not wanting to change anything on it.

firewall by Jereme Carne, on Flickr


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:03 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

Answers inserted; formatting is weird because I still get the list via
email.

On 8/29/2019 7:56 PM, jcarne wrote:
Quote:


Ok I saved this one for last as there is a lot of GREAT info in this one Charlie.
> duplicated from others' posts.
>
> Should have mentioned wire sizes on the field circuit: 'rule of thumb'
> around here is keeping wire size to minimum #22, for physical
> durability/workability. So #22 fuse link>#18 wire>CB>#20>field. You can
> drop to #20 after the CB because a 5A CB will protect #20 wire. (understood)
>
> General 'fusing' (circuit protection) thinking: Always remember what the
> devices are supposed to do, and ask whether they're proper and in the
> proper location for the job. ex: Endurance bus feeds. The #13 wire from
> the main bus to the endurance bus is unprotected, and fed by a #4 wire. (I'm a bit confused on this last sentence. The main bus to e-bus feeder is 14 awg (which I upsized from Bob's 20awg as it seemed a bit small to me). If this is a mistake let me know.)
> The 15A fuse at the alt feed point fuses the bus from that source, but
> its job is to protect the *wire*, so it should be at the other end of
> the wire. (Which means that it's not needed; you already have a 15A fuse
> at the main bat bus (source) *and another* 15A fuse at the bat
> contactor, feeding the main bat bus.) I'd consider using a fuse link at
> the bat contactor to protect #14 wire, and ask whether you really need
> additional fusing on the path to the endurance bus. Logic: Even if a
> catastrophic failure takes out the link, the only extra losses would be
> your dome light & cigarette plug.

Quote:
> Ya you have summed up my confusion on this one pretty well. I am now thinking fuselink at the battery contactor but figured Bob had some sort of reason for the two fuses between the two buses.
I confess I hadn't pulled up z13-8 to see the original configuration.

Looking at it now, I think Bob's logic is: #14 from bat contactor to bat
bus is unfused because of 6" rule; it would need protection (fuselink?)
if the bat bus is remoted, as you thought. I think the 'ebus15A' fuse
feeding S704-1>etc protects the downstream wire (other side of relay)
from the battery. The #20 fuselink from endur-bus to that wire protects
the wire from current supplied through the diode from the main bus. I
confess I don't know why he used #20 link to protect #14 wire, unless
he's looking at protecting the #16 going to the main bus. I missed the
6" rule for the main>endur-bus wire; no need for protection if 6" rule
is observed in your install.
Quote:
>
>
> Oh yeah; might be a good idea to ponder future actual use of the
> cigarette plug. Most lighter sockets are set up for much higher currents
> than 5A. One thing I've used mine for is 'quick & dirty' ground power
> (plane is wired differently from your diagram, allowing the cig socket
> to power the main bus without powering up the master contactor).  If you
> ever think you'll need to charge the battery through the cig socket,
> upsizing that wire & fuse might be worth considering.

Quote:
> Oh how interesting, hadn't thought of that. I will ponder that one.

Quote:
> Current shunts: My purchased -6 has one (rarely reads correctly due to
> flaky fuse holders); my under-construction -7 will not have any. I was
> an electronics tech in several previous lives, and very rarely saw any
> use for an ammeter unless I was troubleshooting/repairing an
> already-failed device. Trying to use one while literally 'on the fly'
> makes zero sense to me. Devices in an a/c will either work correctly or
> they won't. Current variations are way down the list of possible
> troubleshooting methods to find a defective device while in flight
> (like, don't even try). Flight critical devices should have backups;
> non-flight-critical ones are...non-critical.

Quote:
> Totally agree, at this point I think the shunt is only there since I already have it installed.

Quote:
>
>
> Charlie
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

For anyone else that is interested here is my firewall and what I have to work with. There is a lot of time in "fireproofing" this bad boy which is why I'm not wanting to change anything on it.

(https://flic.kr/p/TiyRKL)firewall (https://flic.kr/p/TiyRKL) by Jereme Carne (https://www.flickr.com/photos/151084592(at)N02/), on Flickr



- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

On 8/29/2019 7:37 PM, jcarne wrote:
Quote:

> Charlie
> Oh, forgot: You can reduce the number of failure points in the primary
>
> alt B lead path by moving its ANL tie point to the shunt side of the
> other ANL. As drawn, the alt current must pass through both ANLs, and
> all their related terminals, to get to the airframe's B+ circuit. Also,
> *if* I'm reading the drawing correctly, the shunt in its current (pardon
> the pun) position will show you the alt's charge current going into the
> battery, but will not show you the total current output from the
> alternator. If that's your goal, then nothing wrong with it. But since
> the bus feed is before the shunt, the shunt won't see that load.
> Remember, during normal ops, the alternator carries *all* the electrical
> loads of the a/c; the battery is only supplying current when starting,
> or after an alternator failure (or total loads exceed alternator
> capacity & output voltage drops below battery voltage).
>
> Charlie
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Yes this is one thing I have gona back and forth on. It was either make the current from the alternator go through two ANL devices to charge the battery or only 1 to feed the bus. I'm not sure I follow the reduction in failure points. If you take the alt b lead to the shunt side of the lower ANL won't that result in the alt b lead having to go through two ANL devices to feed the bus? If the lower ANL tripped or failed wouldn't that also result in no battery or primary alt power to the bus?

The shunt in the current position is what I intended when I installed it. In the end I don't really see the shunt as that valuable of a tool so I'll keep it where it is I suppose.
You're right; I got a little cross-eyed looking across the split in the

print. Smile You do still have the issue of only measuring battery charge
current, omitting measurement of bus loads from measurement. The z13-8
design has the bus fed directly from the master contactor, so the shunt
measures all alternator output. Your choice on how to wire that, but
even the FAA considers the master contactor to be protection for the bus
wire.

Z13-8 protects the shunt in addition to the alt B-lead by placing the
protection at the battery end (start contactor) of the B-lead. Remember,
the alternator can't hurt the wire; we're protecting the wire (and
shunt) from the battery. I just use a soldered-in fuselink for the
B-lead, with no shunt, eliminating the multiple failure points created
by the shunt terminals & shunt.

I confess that I really like soldered-in fuselinks, in places that will
only blow after a (low probability) catastrophic fault. I trust my
soldering (old school electronics tech) more than any other connection
method for areas that should never need to be touched again.

Charlie


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
jcarne



Joined: 28 Aug 2019
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 review request Reply with quote

Quote:

You're right; I got a little cross-eyed looking across the split in the
print. Smile You do still have the issue of only measuring battery charge
current, omitting measurement of bus loads from measurement. The z13-8
design has the bus fed directly from the master contactor, so the shunt
measures all alternator output. Your choice on how to wire that, but
even the FAA considers the master contactor to be protection for the bus
wire.

Z13-8 protects the shunt in addition to the alt B-lead by placing the
protection at the battery end (start contactor) of the B-lead. Remember,
the alternator can't hurt the wire; we're protecting the wire (and
shunt) from the battery. I just use a soldered-in fuselink for the
B-lead, with no shunt, eliminating the multiple failure points created
by the shunt terminals & shunt.

I confess that I really like soldered-in fuselinks, in places that will
only blow after a (low probability) catastrophic fault. I trust my
soldering (old school electronics tech) more than any other connection
method for areas that should never need to be touched again.

Charlie


Haha no worries Charlie. I think you have gotten through my thick skull on this one. I was unaware that the ANL fuses are really there to protect from the battery (although I am aware that circuit protection is for the wiring). In addition, you are correct on the shunt placement and what it measures. I don't see the need to have bus current other than a "cool" factor but maybe I'm wrong.

So this leads me to three possibilities that I would like to run by you. As I understand it right now I will have a shunt that is unprotected from the battery as well as more failure points in the unprotected string (seems like an extremely low risk in my mind but I'm electron challenged and it's still a risk nevertheless) Here are the options (that I can think of):
1. Keep my setup as is (in the firewall pic I sent previously) and install a hall effect sensor on the bus feed line if I really wanted feeder current. This still leaves the shunt unprotected from the battery.

2. Eliminate the shunt as shown on my firewall and either move it or install a hall effect sensor upstream of my ANL limiters. This method would seem to solve most of it but will leave two blank bolts on my firewall and require a longer copper bar to connect my contactor to the ANL limiters.

3. Wire/run bar to my ANL limiters and then take the main bus feed off of the shunt. This methoud would probably be the easiest but it would look weird and the placement of the two ANL devices and shunt would look weird.
Anyways, let me know what you think.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group