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Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

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sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

Hi guys, just wanted to let you all know about an incident I had today that could have been prevented. I flew down to Mesquite NV. last Thursday and was getting ready to fly back today.  As I was loading and getting ready to fly back to Salt Lake City, I took out the eye bolts for the tie downs. I then loaded two people in the back with luggage.  The plane was pointed slightly up hill and then both me and my friend stepped on the step and the plane rocked back.  I got off but the plane continued to fall back and the tail hit the ground.  It slightly bent the bottom fuselage skin at the very rear and cracked the rear fiberglass fairing on the rudder.  I will have to replace it and repaint it.  It really isn't a big deal but I'm going to replace the whole fiberglass peice. There would be no scratches or damage at all if I would have left the rear tie down in.  It would have hit the ground.  

I never thought it would rock back but it did.  It was on a slope and the wind was blowing pretty hard that pushed the rear of the plane down even more.  

 

Moral of the story:  Put the eye bolt in and keep it there. Don't be like me and worry about the .0345256395734 mph that you lose with the eye bolt. You can still take out the wing bolts.  

 

Scott Schmidt

N104XP - 72 hours



________________________________

ddddsp1(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

Scott, 

I was just at mesquite..........did you fly down to golf WOLF CREEK?  What a great golf course.  While we were playing a nice VLJ flew in as the airport is almost ON the course.  When 805HL is done I figure I can get to Mesquite in 4 hours.........play golf and fly home.   Sorry to hear about the incident.  I guess getting someone in the front seat before loading all the WINNINGS from the casino in the baggage compartment is a must when leaving Nevada!   LOL 

DEAN 40449 



________________________________________________________________________

 Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!

    [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

Scott, my heart goes out to you.



Randy must have known that, cause the first time I boarded N610RV he was

quick to point out that two humans (of my ballast) cannot mount the

RV-10 aircraft at the same point in time.  



Builders Note:  Only one POB on any given step at the same point in

time.  Share the excitement of loading for a flight - one at a time.



Trivia from the latest FAA AC43.13-2A, Chapter Three - Page 14, Section

38. When installed, the 3/8-16 UNC eyebolt (not provided in the kit) has

a frontal area of about 0.4231875 sq. inches and using the formula from

the AC43.13-1B that would make the factors in Drag = .000327 * Area *

velocity squared.  So at that magic 208 mph, your drag might have been

as high as 5.986972368 pounds.  That's no light bag of potatoes for us

Hot Rodders.  Now what formulation did you use to convert drag factor

into lost mph at cruise?  How are the headers working out?  Do you have

any input on Grand Rapids vs. Chelton yet?  Isn't your engine an

Aerosport?



Hope the repair goes quickly and your painter is as good at Spot Work as

complete repaint.  I am waiting for Sun N' Fun and a Grand Champion

RV-10. May you have gentle breezes, light tailwinds and clear skies into

the spring.



John Cox

#40600



--

sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

We flew down Thursday and went over Grand Canyon again.  We landed at the Grand Canyon airport in 25 knot winds.  We golfed both courses at Oasis. I've played Wolfcreek before and loved it.   What a great weekend, 70 degrees and no wind or clouds.  If any of you ever fly down the local Mesquite auto rental company will come and pick you up.  You then can leave the car at the airport when you leave and they will come and pick it up.

 

I wish my winnings were the issue.  Played three card poker and did alright but I didn't win the bazzillion dollars I was hoping for. 

 

Well, it was time to do some things on plane I've been holding off on. I'm going to add the oxygen system and finish the headliner while I'm working on the rudder.  I'm also going to add a rudder trim while I have it off and have to repaint it. 

 

-Scott Schmidt

N104XP - 72 hours



________________________________



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of ddddsp1(at)juno.com

Sent: Sun 12/10/2006 10:53 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt



Scott,



I was just at mesquite..........did you fly down to golf WOLF CREEK?  What a great golf course.  While we were playing a nice VLJ flew in as the airport is almost ON the course.  When 805HL is done I figure I can get to Mesquite in 4 hours.........play golf and fly home.   Sorry to hear about the incident.  I guess getting someone in the front seat before loading all the WINNINGS from the casino in the baggage compartment is a must when leaving Nevada!   LOL



DEAN 40449



________________________________________________________________________



<http://www.aeroelectric.com/> 

<http://www.buildersbooks.com/> 



<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>

flysrv10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:21 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

Thanks for the "heads-up".

Do not archive

 Rob Kermanj



 



On Dec 11, 2006, at 12:21 AM, Scott Schmidt wrote:

[quote]Hi guys, just wanted to let you all know about an incident I had today that could have been prevented. I flew down to Mesquite NV. last Thursday and was getting ready to fly back today.  As I was loading and getting ready to fly back to Salt Lake City, I took out the eye bolts for the tie downs. I then loaded two people in the back with luggage.  The plane was pointed slightly up hill and then both me and my friend stepped on the step and the plane rocked back.  I got off but the plane continued to fall back and the tail hit the ground.  It slightly bent the bottom fuselage skin at the very rear and cracked the rear fiberglass fairing on the rudder.  I will have to replace it and repaint it.  It really isn't a big deal but I'm going to replace the whole fiberglass peice. There would be no scratches or damage at all if I would have left the rear tie down in.  It would have hit the ground.  

I never thought it would rock back but it did.  It was on a slope and the wind was blowing pretty hard that pushed the rear of the plane down even more.  

Moral of the story:  Put the eye bolt in and keep it there. Don't be like me and worry about the .0345256395734 mph that you lose with the eye bolt. You can still take out the wing bolts.  

Scott Schmidt

N104XP - 72 hours

________________________________



<winmail.dat>



[b]

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:52 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

I too had the same problem when my buddy Bob K. and  I both got on the step at the same time.  I replaced my rudder bottom  fairing with nutplates and screws instead of riveting it back on.  Still  have to paint but with my White/Red/Black paint job it doesn't look real bad  still unpainted.

  

 I am not at all sure that leaving the eye bolt in  will solve the problem because the angle may still get the rear tail lens and  rear tip of the bottom fairing even with the eye bolt.  It won't happen to  me a second time but like a lot of other things it is just one of those little  items in the learning curve.

  

 I removed the dam on the front of the baffles the  blocks the air to the two front cylinders (as per Tim Olson's recommendation)  and the flight yesterday dropped the CHT on the two front cylinders by 40  degrees each and brought them both in line with the other four  cylinders.

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

    [quote][b]

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

Looks like this one deserves a mention in a page about flying

the RV-10.  I just added it to my tips area and changed "Flight Testing 

Info" to "RV-10 Flying and Flight Testing Info".  Hopefully future

builders will stumble upon it if we don't discuss it often enough here.



For what it's worth, I have always made it a point to only board one

person at a time ever since Jesse posted his post about his OSH

tail strike a couple OSH's ago.  I've never had it tip back on loading,

even with rear passengers, but I've either quickly climbed up and

stood in the doorway on the wing, or waited on the ground until the

other boarding person on the other side has made it to the wing.

The awareness should be enough to prevent the problem, but we

haven't discussed this too often so it's easy to see how it would

be missed.

And Russ, I'm glad to hear that yet another person is seeing better

temps with that air dam cut or removed.



I've still not yet removed mine, but trimmed it very far down and more

shaped like the cylinder head:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/maintenance/20061022/RV200611090001.html



This weekend I went flying to gather a little temperature data for

an upcoming meeting, and the temps were fairly well balanced.

The middle cylinders are the coolest.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying



Russell Daves wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I too had the same problem when my buddy Bob K. and I both got on the 

 step at the same time.  I replaced my rudder bottom fairing with 

 nutplates and screws instead of riveting it back on.  Still have to 

 paint but with my White/Red/Black paint job it doesn't look real bad 

 still unpainted.

  

 I am not at all sure that leaving the eye bolt in will solve the problem 

 because the angle may still get the rear tail lens and rear tip of the 

 bottom fairing even with the eye bolt.  It won't happen to me a second 

 time but like a lot of other things it is just one of those little items 

 in the learning curve.

  

 I removed the dam on the front of the baffles the blocks the air to the 

 two front cylinders (as per Tim Olson's recommendation) and the flight 

 yesterday dropped the CHT on the two front cylinders by 40 degrees each 

 and brought them both in line with the other four cylinders.

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV

  

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

If your plane ever hits the tie down ring on the tail be sure to

carefully check for internal damage.  This has happened on many

certified aircraft and the damage is hard to detect without close

internal inspection.  There is lots of support structure for the tail

feathers back there.



Tom Deutsch

#40545  Almost ready to paint

 

--

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

Scott,  

   

I know how that feels, although we always leave the bolt in.  I posted on the list about a year ago that this could happen.  In fact, it happened while taxiing at OSH ’05 after a flight that drained the tanks, with the plane full (I am sure some of you remember seeing the busted rear light on N256H).  When loading the plane full, it is best to fill the co-pilot seat first, then the back seats.  We have seen this in 2 planes now, so ALL should take note that this is possible.  

   

Do not archive.  

     

Jesse Saint  

I-TEC, Inc.  

jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)  

www.itecusa.org  

W: 352-465-4545  

C: 352-427-0285  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 12:21 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt  

  

       

Hi guys, just wanted to let you all know about an incident I had today that could have been prevented. I flew down to Mesquite NV. last Thursday and was getting ready to fly back today.  As I was loading and getting ready to fly back to Salt   Lake City, I took out the eye bolts for the tie downs. I then loaded two people in the back with luggage.  The plane was pointed slightly up hill and then both me and my friend stepped on the step and the plane rocked back.  I got off but the plane continued to fall back and the tail hit the ground.  It slightly bent the bottom fuselage skin at the very rear and cracked the rear fiberglass fairing on the rudder.  I will have to replace it and repaint it.  It really isn't a big deal but I'm going to replace the whole fiberglass peice. There would be no scratches or damage at all if I would have left the rear tie down in.  It would have hit the ground.    

    

I never thought it would rock back but it did.  It was on a slope and the wind was blowing pretty hard that pushed the rear of the plane down even more.    

    

   

    

Moral of the story:  Put the eye bolt in and keep it there. Don't be like me and worry about the .0345256395734 mph that you lose with the eye bolt. You can still take out the wing bolts.    

  

    

   

    

Scott Schmidt  

    

N104XP - 72 hours  

        

  

  

     

  

--

 12/8/2006 12:53 PM

  

  

--

 12/8/2006 12:53 PM

     [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

Tom, do you also have serial number #40405?



John Cox

#40600

Do not archive



--

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

If on a flat surface, leaving the bolt in will prevent hitting the tail light.  Uneven surfaces could cause a problem, as in our experience at OSH.  Also, soft surfaces like grass would be uncertain, because the bolt could easily sink in with very much pressure, allow other parts to hit.  

     

Jesse Saint  

I-TEC, Inc.  

jesse(at)itecusa.org (jesse(at)itecusa.org)  

www.itecusa.org  

W: 352-465-4545  

C: 352-427-0285  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves

 Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 5:51 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt  

  

     

I too had the same problem when my buddy Bob K. and I both got on the step at the same time.  I replaced my rudder bottom fairing with nutplates and screws instead of riveting it back on.  Still have to paint but with my White/Red/Black paint job it doesn't look real bad still unpainted.  

    

   

    

I am not at all sure that leaving the eye bolt in will solve the problem because the angle may still get the rear tail lens and rear tip of the bottom fairing even with the eye bolt.  It won't happen to me a second time but like a lot of other things it is just one of those little items in the learning curve.  

    

   

    

I removed the dam on the front of the baffles the blocks the air to the two front cylinders (as per Tim Olson's recommendation) and the flight yesterday dropped the CHT on the two front cylinders by 40 degrees each and brought them both in line with the other four cylinders.  

    

   

    

Russ Daves  

    

N710RV  

    

   

    

DO NOT ARCHIVE  

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     --  Release Date: 12/8/2006 12:53 PM 

  

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 12/8/2006 12:53 PM

     [quote][b]

deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

No not mine



Tom Deutsch, 

 



--

sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

John, I didn't really calculate the drag from the eye bolt.  I was just

guessing.  I'm sure it isn't enough to even worry about though.  



So far the ceramic coated headers have been great.  I haven't observed

any advantages and haven't seen any disadvantages.  



My engine is an Aerosport and everything seems to be working great.  I

cut down the baffles on the fronts of the cylinders and really saw an

increase on the cooling.  I still need to cut down my #1 a little more.

Typically I have 360 on #1, 345 on #2, #3 and #4 are around 315 and #5

and #6 are around 330 when I'm cruising at 19.5 inches, 2380 RPM and the

OAT is around 30 degrees. My oil temp is around 165 at that OAT.  It

starts great hot or cold.  I really like the Lightspeed electronic

ignition.  



I don't have much to report on the Cheltons vs. the Grand Rapids yet.  I

still have not been able to get my magnetometer to work on the Grand

Rapids.  I think this then causes some other problems with the moving

map.  I have not been at all impressed with the AHRS on the Grand Rapids

yet either.  It is only completely level 50% of the time at this point.

Most of that is my fault though.  It usually takes 2:30 seconds to align

and I don't have the patience.  The Cheltons have been bullet proof on

that.  No matter what angle the plane is sitting, I can be moving or

sitting, it is always dead on.  The only issue I have with the Chelton's

right now is the GPS antenna.  The Crossbow antenna is under my rear

fairing near the Vertical Stab and I lose signal quite often.  I would

never try an IFR approach until I upgrade it to the PinPoint AHRS.  The

Chelton's are absolutely amazing when it comes to linking with the

autopilot as well.  I like the engine page much better on the Grand

Rapids though.  I have been spending my time learning the Cheltons and

haven't given the Grand Rapids a fair shake.  But if I had to pick one,

the Chelton's by far appear to be more reliable, look nicer and are

easier to work.  Just getting the Grand Rapids to GOTO an airport is not

nearly as easy as the Cheltons.  I am going to figure out my

magnetometer issue over the next couple of weeks.  Once I get everything

working on both I will fly with both, shoot some approaches with both,

and get back to you all.



As for the Grand Champion John, I hate to disappoint but I don't have

it.  I've been to Oshkosh 12 years in a row and have looked at the Grand

Champions and the guys who just miss and the difference between the

Grand  Champion and second place is 5000 hours.  The Glasair Grand

Champion (a few years ago) I think spent something like 9000 hours

building his.  It takes 6000 - 10000 hours to build a Grand Champion.  I

have 3000 hours in mine and it is nice and looks great but I never built

it to be a show winner.  I just wanted a nice looking plane that didn't

look "home-made" (as my friends wife calls it). I also plan to fly too

much to ever keep it a show winner.  I have been flying now for 58 days

and I have 75.4 hours on the hobbs.  I already have a few chips on the

paint around the doors and I have one spot around my pilot window where

my fiberglass tape didn't hold up and I have a 6" crack in the paint at

the joint between the window and the door. So far I've been able to

prevent the crack everywhere else that a few people have been getting at

the joint between the window and the fiberglass with a 1" strip of light

fiberglass cloth.  The only way to fix that is to redo the door but I

have way too much fun flying. Maybe I'll fix that if I have a couple of

weeks of bad flying weather.  I keep scaring my wife by telling her that

we have almost used up 5% of the engine in the first two months of

flying.  



I'll get back to you on the EFIS systems when I feel like I know both of

them much better.  



Scott Schmidt

sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com

--

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:17 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

See inline...



Scott Schmidt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I don't have much to report on the Cheltons vs. the Grand Rapids yet.  I

 still have not been able to get my magnetometer to work on the Grand

 Rapids.  I think this then causes some other problems with the moving

 map.  I have not been at all impressed with the AHRS on the Grand Rapids

 yet either.  It is only completely level 50% of the time at this point.

 Most of that is my fault though.  It usually takes 2:30 seconds to align

 and I don't have the patience.  The Cheltons have been bullet proof on

 that.  No matter what angle the plane is sitting, I can be moving or

 sitting, it is always dead on.  The only issue I have with the Chelton's

 right now is the GPS antenna.  The Crossbow antenna is under my rear

 fairing near the Vertical Stab and I lose signal quite often.  I would

 never try an IFR approach until I upgrade it to the PinPoint AHRS.  The

 Chelton's are absolutely amazing when it comes to linking with the

 autopilot as well.  I like the engine page much better on the Grand

 Rapids though.  I have been spending my time learning the Cheltons and

 haven't given the Grand Rapids a fair shake.  But if I had to pick one,

 the Chelton's by far appear to be more reliable, look nicer and are

 easier to work.  Just getting the Grand Rapids to GOTO an airport is not

 nearly as easy as the Cheltons.  I am going to figure out my

 magnetometer issue over the next couple of weeks.  Once I get everything

 working on both I will fly with both, shoot some approaches with both,

 and get back to you all.

 


	


That antenna location is pretty far from ideal, I hate to say.  If

you get the antenna from D2AV that you'll use with the pinpoint,

or even work a deal with them so you can buy that antenna, and get

a credit when your pinpoint ships, then your options get much better.

It's interesting that the stinkin' little antenna was actually what

was spec'd by your current AHRS manufacturer.  You really want to

give that thing a good view from the sky.  I saw Russ's reply, but

what he doesn't know is that your AHRS isn't under the panel, so

your best cable length would actually be if you do like me and just

mount that antenna forward on the aluminum section of tailcone.

The same antenna will work for the pinpoint as the crossbow.  You

do need to get a short 2' SMA to TNC cable, which I have contact

info for if you need.  But once you do that, your GPS situation will

be great. I've actually never once lost GPS signal, and that's with

either AHRS system.

 	  Quote: 	
		   As for the Grand Champion John, I hate to disappoint but I don't have

 it.  I've been to Oshkosh 12 years in a row and have looked at the Grand

 Champions and the guys who just miss and the difference between the

 Grand  Champion and second place is 5000 hours.  The Glasair Grand

 Champion (a few years ago) I think spent something like 9000 hours

 building his.  It takes 6000 - 10000 hours to build a Grand Champion.  I

 have 3000 hours in mine and it is nice and looks great but I never built

 it to be a show winner.  I just wanted a nice looking plane that didn't

 look "home-made" (as my friends wife calls it). I also plan to fly too

 much to ever keep it a show winner.  I have been flying now for 58 days

 and I have 75.4 hours on the hobbs.  I already have a few chips on the

 paint around the doors and I have one spot around my pilot window where

 my fiberglass tape didn't hold up and I have a 6" crack in the paint at

 the joint between the window and the door. So far I've been able to

 prevent the crack everywhere else that a few people have been getting at

 the joint between the window and the fiberglass with a 1" strip of light

 fiberglass cloth.  The only way to fix that is to redo the door but I

 have way too much fun flying. Maybe I'll fix that if I have a couple of

 weeks of bad flying weather.  I keep scaring my wife by telling her that

 we have almost used up 5% of the engine in the first two months of

 flying.  


	


Well, your plane looks like you did nicer than me on a few things, but

I know exactly how you feel.  You're more pilot than builder, and your

plane is more "ultra-cool-transportation" than "don't touch me and

stand back while while my owner polishes me endlessly" to you.  I've

got rock chips in the paint, and the usual wear and tear you'd expect

at 180 hours, but it's been way more fun flying it than just sitting

in the chair admiring it.  To me, the true beauty of the plane can

only be seen from the front seats, when you're blasting through the

clouds to clear skies above....or when you're cruising above some of

the beautiful locations on our earth while moving 170kts.  When I

see people get obsessed over the shape of the interior door handles

and things like that, I just chuckle.   When I'm flying the plane,

I don't even notice the door handles.  It's what's in front of

your eyes and out your windows that matters.  I'm just glad to see

you're getting lots of use out of your plane, and that you still

report back here to us.



Safe Flying, Scott!

Tim



[quote] 

 I'll get back to you on the EFIS systems when I feel like I know both of

 them much better.  

 

 Scott Schmidt

 sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com

 

 

 --

sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

Tim, I was under the impression the from Direct 2 Avionics that the

Pinpoint GPS antenna was not compatible with the Crossbow.  I really

want to put a standard aircraft GPS antenna next to my Garmin 430

antenna then I know the problem will be fixed.  I was told the baud rate

was different between the Pinpoint and Crossbow antenna.  I will give

them a call today.  



Scott Schmidt

sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com



--

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: Rear Tie Down Eye Bolt

The antenna I'm using with my pinpoint right now is the one

that came with my GNS-480.  They have basically identical

specs.  My GNS480 is using a combo antenna.  Baud rate

wouldn't be a proper term, but gain or voltage would be

something to watch for.   At any rate, I'm sure that the

pinpoint antenna would work with that crossbow.  I have

used the same antenna that I am today, with both systems.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Scott Schmidt wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Tim, I was under the impression the from Direct 2 Avionics that the

 Pinpoint GPS antenna was not compatible with the Crossbow.  I really

 want to put a standard aircraft GPS antenna next to my Garmin 430

 antenna then I know the problem will be fixed.  I was told the baud rate

 was different between the Pinpoint and Crossbow antenna.  I will give

 them a call today.  

 

 Scott Schmidt

 sschmidt(at)ussynthetic.com

 

 --

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