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Thoughts on Upgrades

 
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pdukor1(at)tampabay.rr.co
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:51 am    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

I am new to the list, but was impressed by the plane at the Sebring
Show last weekend. in any case how about a constant speed prop like
the Airmaster (or whatever brand) which is already set up for the
3300? Seems to me the plane and pilot win in better fuel economy,
longer range and improved performance numbers from takeoff to landing.
Yeah, it is more money, I know, but I think it is the missing link to
make this a very happy rocket.

Paul dukor
Sarasota, Florida


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pete(at)flylightning.net
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

We've tried the Airmaster. To our surprise it resulted in a substantial
decrease in cruise performance. The explanation was that the Warp Drive
blades are great for speeds up to 140 knots but hit the wall above that.

We are hoping that Sensenich will get their in flight adjustable up and
running soon with the ZK blade profile that works so well with the 3300
Jabiru.

Pete

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pdukor1(at)tampabay.rr.co
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:42 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

Whoda thunk that!
Thanks for the quick reply since I was still agonizing over it and
planning a spot on the panel for the controller!
Paul

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Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:30 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

My understanding is that constant speed props dont make for faster airspeeds; only

1) better takeoff thrust
2) more weight
3) more money
4) possible better economy since it allows for higher "lugging power" at lower prop speeds that a prop optimosed for top speed.

If there is a radical difference between stall speeds and top speed, changing prop speeds can make a difference in fuel burn and keep the prop from cavitating at static/early takeoff.

But generally you need in excess of 150 hp for it to be worth it....which is why Piper and Cessna havent messed with putting one on the Cessna 150 or the Piper 140 Cherokee.

I suspect the best prop deal for the Lightning is simply the lightest wooden fixed pitch one that will allow
3300 rpm at WOT.

But I could be wrong.......

Doug Koenigsberg

In a message dated 1/22/2007 5:44:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, pdukor1(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:
Quote:

Quote:
I am new to the list, but was impressed by the plane at the
Sebring
Show last weekend. in any case how about a constant speed prop
like
the Airmaster (or whatever brand) which is already set up for the
3300? Seems to me the plane and pilot win in better fuel economy,
longer range and improved performance numbers from takeoff to
landing.
Yeah, it is more money, I know, but I think it is the missing link
to
make this a very happy rocket.




[quote][b]


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N1BZRich(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

In a message dated 1/22/2007 7:39:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:
Quote:
I suspect the best prop deal for the Lightning is simply the lightest wooden fixed pitch one that will allow
3300 rpm at WOT.



[quote][b]


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lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

Doug,
Re pitch change allowing faster cruise speeds....

We have a Hoffmann 3 position variable pitch prop on
our 80hp Dimona motorglider. Fine for takeoff, course
for cruise and feather for gliding engine off. The
prop is ground adjustable for pitch variations in any
of these settings.

In fine, the Limbach engine provides a rate of climb
of around 400'-450'fpm (at) 55kts. It would rapidly
approach and exceed red line of 3200rpm (3000-3200rpm
continuous for <5mins permitted on takeoff) beyond
60kts IAS even in climb.

Resetting the pitch to cruise provides an IAS of
85-90kts (at) 2700rpm. In our case at least the pitch
variation does make a big difference to cruise speed
achieved.

As an aside, I am amazed at just how small a variation
in pitch there is between our fine and course
settings. Observing the pitch change from outside the
cockpit while someone in it alters the settings, the
change is barely discernable.

Laurie
Sydney
--- Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:

My understanding is that constant speed props dont
make for faster
airspeeds; only

1) better takeoff thrust
2) more weight
3) more money
4) possible better economy since it allows for
higher "lugging power" at
lower prop speeds that a prop optimosed for top
speed.

If there is a radical difference between stall
speeds and top speed,
changing prop speeds can make a difference in fuel
burn and keep the prop from
cavitating at static/early takeoff.

But generally you need in excess of 150 hp for it to
be worth it....which is
why Piper and Cessna havent messed with putting one
on the Cessna 150 or the
Piper 140 Cherokee.

I suspect the best prop deal for the Lightning is
simply the lightest wooden
fixed pitch one that will allow
3300 rpm at WOT.

But I could be wrong.......

Doug Koenigsberg

In a message dated 1/22/2007 5:44:41 PM Eastern
Standard Time,
pdukor1(at)tampabay.rr.com writes:


> I am new to the list, but was impressed by the
plane at the
> Sebring
> Show last weekend. in any case how about a
constant speed prop
> like
> the Airmaster (or whatever brand) which is already
set up for the
> 3300? Seems to me the plane and pilot win in
better fuel economy,
> longer range and improved performance numbers from
takeoff to
> landing.
> Yeah, it is more money, I know, but I think it is
the missing link
> to
> make this a very happy rocket.
>







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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

In a message dated 1/22/2007 7:39:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:
Quote:
I suspect the best prop deal for the Lightning is simply the lightest wooden fixed pitch one that will allow
3300 rpm at WOT.


I agree with Doug on this. With the Lightning's low stall speed, short takeoff roll, and good rate of climb, why not just put on a prop that will do as Doug says - the lightest wooden fixed pitch one that will allow 3300 rpm at WOT. Even with this so called "cruise / speed prop" on the Lightning the take off roll is still very short, the climb rate is still very good, and the low stall speed allows for relatively slow approaches. Therefore, with the right cruise prop installed the Lightning can operate out of short runways and still "go like stink". In my book, the simplest answer is normally the best plan.  Cheaper, lighter, foolproof.
And besides, are we really talking about a constant speed prop (one that uses engine oil as the hydraulic media to keep the prop at a constant set rpm), or one that has a variable pitch control from the cockpit and is electrically operated by the pilot to change pitch and might need lots of attention to keep a constant rpm. Kind of like the old electric props on the older Bonanzas. Sensenich showed me a pre-production model of this type of hub at Oshkosh two years ago.  It looked good, but is going to be costly. I think you will probably be able to buy four or five Sensenich fixed pitch props for the price of one of these. Just my $.02 worth. Your mileage may vary.
Blue Skies,
Buz
[quote][b]


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lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:28 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

On re-reading my post it could seem that I'm
advocating a variable pitch prop for the Lightning. On
the contrary, as Buz has well described, I don't
believe the benefits would outway the losses in terms
of cost, weight and complexity.

I'll be going for a ground adjustable fixed pitch prop
for my Lightning when the time comes for me to order
my kit.
Laurie


--- N1BZRich(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:

In a message dated 1/22/2007 7:39:41 P.M. Eastern
Standard Time,
Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:

I suspect the best prop deal for the Lightning is
simply the lightest wooden
fixed pitch one that will allow
3300 rpm at WOT.



I agree with Doug on this. With the
Lightning's low stall speed, short
takeoff roll, and good rate of climb, why not just
put on a prop that will do
as Doug says - the lightest wooden fixed pitch one
that will allow 3300 rpm
at WOT. Even with this so called "cruise / speed
prop" on the Lightning the
take off roll is still very short, the climb rate
is still very good, and the
low stall speed allows for relatively slow
approaches. Therefore, with the
right cruise prop installed the Lightning can
operate out of short runways
and still "go like stink". In my book, the
simplest answer is normally the
best plan. Cheaper, lighter, foolproof.
And besides, are we really talking about a
constant speed prop (one that
uses engine oil as the hydraulic media to keep the
prop at a constant set
rpm), or one that has a variable pitch control from
the cockpit and is
electrically operated by the pilot to change pitch
and might need lots of attention
to keep a constant rpm. Kind of like the old
electric props on the older
Bonanzas. Sensenich showed me a pre-production
model of this type of hub at
Oshkosh two years ago. It looked good, but is
going to be costly. I think you
will probably be able to buy four or five Sensenich
fixed pitch props for the
price of one of these. Just my $.02 worth. Your
mileage may vary.
Blue Skies,
Buz




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Kayberg(at)AOL.COM
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

Laurie,

I know you have already responded to Buz and agree at least in principle with both of us, but I want to just note that the Limbach is a fine motor, but different in design....as well as only 2/3 the horsepower of the 3300 Jabiru. Not to mention it is bolted to a motorglider. I suspect the weights of both aircraft are similar, as well as the engines.  In fact, the Limbach may be slightly heavier.

Without that prop, you really cannot motorglide, of course. Or at least not nearly as well.

Ryan has been amusing himself lately by shutting the Jabiru engine down and gliding from significant distances away from the field to see how well he can glide/practice engine-outs. It really is quite substantial.   The suggested 17:1 glide ratio is not far off. I suspect you are closer to 25:1 Our skills dont include soaring just yet, even tho we are near a good ridge to practice on.

But It really is about the horsepower.

Doug Koenigberg


In a message dated 1/22/2007 8:01:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com writes:
Quote:

Doug,
Re pitch change allowing faster cruise speeds....

We have a Hoffmann 3 position variable pitch prop on
our 80hp Dimona motorglider. Fine for takeoff, course
for cruise and feather for gliding engine off. The
prop is ground adjustable for pitch variations in any
of these settings.

In fine, the Limbach engine provides a rate of climb
of around 400'-450'fpm (at) 55kts. It would rapidly
approach and exceed red line of 3200rpm (3000-3200rpm
continuous for <5mins permitted on takeoff) beyond
60kts IAS even in climb.

Resetting the pitch to cruise provides an IAS of
85-90kts (at) 2700rpm. In our case at least the pitch
variation does make a big difference to cruise speed
achieved.

As an aside, I am amazed at just how small a variation
in pitch there is between our fine and course
settings. Observing the pitch change from outside the
cockpit while someone in it alters the settings, the
change is barely discernable.

Laurie
Sydney
--- Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:



[quote][b]


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lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:29 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

Thnx Doug,
The 17:1 glide ratio was one thing that had caught my
eye. Not so much from the perspective of shutting down
and attempting to soar the Lightning but more as
indicative of how aerodynamically clean the airframe
must be. The polar curve for the aircraft would be
interesting though. Anyone have any idea of the
Lightning's best glide speed ie at which speed it
achieves 17:1 and the subsequent sink rate?
Laurie
--- Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:

Laurie,

I know you have already responded to Buz and agree
at least in principle
with both of us, but I want to just note that the
Limbach is a fine motor, but
different in design....as well as only 2/3 the
horsepower of the 3300 Jabiru.
Not to mention it is bolted to a motorglider. I
suspect the weights of
both aircraft are similar, as well as the engines.
In fact, the Limbach may be
slightly heavier.

Without that prop, you really cannot motorglide, of
course. Or at least not
nearly as well.

Ryan has been amusing himself lately by shutting the
Jabiru engine down and
gliding from significant distances away from the
field to see how well he can
glide/practice engine-outs. It really is quite
substantial. The suggested
17:1 glide ratio is not far off. I suspect you are
closer to 25:1 Our
skills dont include soaring just yet, even tho we
are near a good ridge to
practice on.

But It really is about the horsepower.

Doug Koenigberg


In a message dated 1/22/2007 8:01:05 PM Eastern
Standard Time,
lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com writes:


Doug,
Re pitch change allowing faster cruise speeds....

We have a Hoffmann 3 position variable pitch prop on
our 80hp Dimona motorglider. Fine for takeoff,
course
for cruise and feather for gliding engine off. The
prop is ground adjustable for pitch variations in
any
of these settings.

In fine, the Limbach engine provides a rate of
climb
of around 400'-450'fpm (at) 55kts. It would rapidly
approach and exceed red line of 3200rpm
(3000-3200rpm
continuous for <5mins permitted on takeoff) beyond
60kts IAS even in climb.

Resetting the pitch to cruise provides an IAS of
85-90kts (at) 2700rpm. In our case at least the pitch
variation does make a big difference to cruise speed
achieved.

As an aside, I am amazed at just how small a
variation
in pitch there is between our fine and course
settings. Observing the pitch change from outside
the
cockpit while someone in it alters the settings,
the
change is barely discernable.

Laurie
Sydney
--- Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:







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lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

Doug,
just in case you aren't already aware of it, shock
cooling is a major source of premature cylinder head
failure. Its something to be very mindful of if
shutting down midflight.

We fitted a LCD shock cooling alert to the Super cub
that I flew towing gliders for many years and it was
invaluable. We also had one fitted to another
motorglider which had cowl flaps just in case adequate
checks weren't carried out.

Its not so much the absolute temp changes but the rate
of cooling which is critical. Initial power reductions
should be very minor and incremental. We gradually
pull power back over several minutes until the CHT is
quite low before shutting down. Something to keep in
mind with the Lightning.

Sure is nice to be able to shutdown and glide those
last 50 miles from a good cruising level even when no
lift is available!
Laurie

--- Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:

Quote:

Laurie,

I know you have already responded to Buz and agree
at least in principle
with both of us, but I want to just note that the
Limbach is a fine motor, but
different in design....as well as only 2/3 the
horsepower of the 3300 Jabiru.
Not to mention it is bolted to a motorglider. I
suspect the weights of
both aircraft are similar, as well as the engines.
In fact, the Limbach may be
slightly heavier.

Without that prop, you really cannot motorglide, of
course. Or at least not
nearly as well.

Ryan has been amusing himself lately by shutting the
Jabiru engine down and
gliding from significant distances away from the
field to see how well he can
glide/practice engine-outs. It really is quite
substantial. The suggested
17:1 glide ratio is not far off. I suspect you are
closer to 25:1 Our
skills dont include soaring just yet, even tho we
are near a good ridge to
practice on.

But It really is about the horsepower.

Doug Koenigberg


In a message dated 1/22/2007 8:01:05 PM Eastern
Standard Time,
lozhoffman(at)yahoo.com writes:


Doug,
Re pitch change allowing faster cruise speeds....

We have a Hoffmann 3 position variable pitch prop on
our 80hp Dimona motorglider. Fine for takeoff,
course
for cruise and feather for gliding engine off. The
prop is ground adjustable for pitch variations in
any
of these settings.

In fine, the Limbach engine provides a rate of
climb
of around 400'-450'fpm (at) 55kts. It would rapidly
approach and exceed red line of 3200rpm
(3000-3200rpm
continuous for <5mins permitted on takeoff) beyond
60kts IAS even in climb.

Resetting the pitch to cruise provides an IAS of
85-90kts (at) 2700rpm. In our case at least the pitch
variation does make a big difference to cruise speed
achieved.

As an aside, I am amazed at just how small a
variation
in pitch there is between our fine and course
settings. Observing the pitch change from outside
the
cockpit while someone in it alters the settings,
the
change is barely discernable.

Laurie
Sydney
--- Kayberg(at)aol.com wrote:







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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

One of the things that I am going to try to do is to determine the
coefficient of drag on the Lightning before and after my modifications.
Quote:
From that I can give you a better guess at how much performance gains I can
get out of the speed mods. I'll also do the glide testing to verify data.

I'll have use of an instrumentation package to record the inflight data and
can download that into the laptop when I get down. Should be interesting.
Brian W.

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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 44
Location: Peachtree City, GA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Upgrades Reply with quote

Wouldn't an Angle of Attack indicator tell you the best glide speed, or do I understand the things all wrong?
Rolling Eyes


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