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pequeajim



Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

Well fellows, I am happy to report that tonight I received a committment from a buyer that they are buying my Murphy Rebel!

This leaves the door open for the purchase of a new aircraft. I am 99% decided on the Lightning. I still have not flown it, or sat in one of the newer versions and want to do so before making a commitment. Additionally, I will need to plan out my finances accordingly to be sure I can coplete the aircraft in a timely manner.

If you guys don't mind, I have a few basic ownership questions for you.

What are the general insurance costs? (I have about 170 hours flight time)
What is a realistic time to complete with builder assist?
Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville, or do the sales centers have enough experience with this new design? I live in central PA and I was impressed with Green Landings.

What type of other questions would you want answered before you buy?

Thanks for your help. This list is refreshingly open and informative.

Jim Langley


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cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:51 pm    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

Jim- Great news about you selling your plane.
Congrats! I can answer one of your ?'s. I talked to
Jim Nelson at Falcon Insurance and was told insurance
was about 4K a year if I remember correctly, and I
have only 70 hours. He said that because the Lightning
is essentially an Esqual hybrid, it has a proven
safety record and is therefore easily and
inexpensively insurable. Charles
--- pequeajim <pequeajim(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

<pequeajim(at)gmail.com>

Well fellows, I am happy to report that tonight I
received a committment from a buyer that they are
buying my Murphy Rebel!

This leaves the door open for the purchase of a new
aircraft. I am 99% decided on the Lightning. I
still have not flown it, or sat in one of the newer
versions and want to do so before making a
commitment. Additionally, I will need to plan out
my finances accordingly to be sure I can coplete the
aircraft in a timely manner.

If you guys don't mind, I have a few basic ownership
questions for you.

What are the general insurance costs? (I have about
170 hours flight time)
What is a realistic time to complete with builder
assist?
Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville,
or do the sales centers have enough experience with
this new design? I live in central PA and I was
impressed with Green Landings.

What type of other questions would you want answered
before you buy?

Thanks for your help. This list is refreshingly
open and informative.

Jim Langley




Read this topic online here:


http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90003#90003

Quote:








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pequeajim



Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback Charles. I would expect a little less on the insurance since I have more time, but do not know what that figure might be. By the time the aircraft is flying, I would expect to be over 200 hours.

BTW, it would be great to have it done for Oshkosh!


On 1/23/07, Charles Dewey <cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com (cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Lightning-List message posted by: Charles Dewey <cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com (cdewey6969(at)yahoo.com)>

Jim- Great news about you selling your plane.
Congrats! I can answer one of your ?'s. I talked to
Jim Nelson at Falcon Insurance and was told insurance
was about 4K a year if I remember correctly, and I
have only 70 hours. He said that because the Lightning
is essentially an Esqual hybrid, it has a proven
safety record and is therefore easily and
inexpensively insurable. Charles
--- pequeajim < pequeajim(at)gmail.com (pequeajim(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Lightning-List message posted by: "pequeajim"
<pequeajim(at)gmail.com (pequeajim(at)gmail.com)>

Well fellows, I am happy to report that tonight I
received a committment from a buyer that they are
buying my Murphy Rebel!

This leaves the door open for the purchase of a new
aircraft. I am 99% decided on the Lightning. I
still have not flown it, or sat in one of the newer
versions and want to do so before making a
commitment. Additionally, I will need to plan out
my finances accordingly to be sure I can coplete the
aircraft in a timely manner.

If you guys don't mind, I have a few basic ownership
questions for you.

What are the general insurance costs? (I have about
170 hours flight time)
What is a realistic time to complete with builder
assist?
Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville,
or do the sales centers have enough experience with
this new design? I live in central PA and I was
impressed with Green Landings.

What type of other questions would you want answered
before you buy?

Thanks for your help. This list is refreshingly
open and informative.

Jim Langley


Read this topic online here:


http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90003#90003

Quote:


browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List

Web Forums!




[b]


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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:42 pm    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

Jim,
Congratulations on the sale of your Rebel.  Deciding on your new airplane will be an exciting time. I am sure many on this list will be happy to "help" with your decision. Now to take a "stab" at your questions.

What are the general insurance costs? (I have about 170 hours flight time)
Flying time is only part of the equation. Do you want in flight hull coverage as well as liability?  How much hull coverage do you want? Will the airplane be hangared? I have 31BZ hangared and insured for $85K and a million liability. I have somewhere between 6 and 7 thousand hours and the cost is about $1700 a year.

What is a realistic time to complete with builder assist?
A lot depends on your schedule, but plan on about three weeks of your time in Shelbyville (don't know about Green "Acres") plus about that much time for their painter also - so plan on at least 6 weeks to get to the FAA inspection.

Should I consider the builder assist in Shelbyville, or do the sales centers have enough experience with this new design? I live in central PA and I was impressed with Green Landings.
You will find great people in both places. I have not seen the Green "Acres" facilities, but I know the guys and they have one flying and at least one building. Talk to both places about schedules, paint shops, avionics experience, etc., and what the local FAA or DAR is like. How quickly will the local FAA/DAR respond to your inspection request? Do both places charge the same amount for the builders assist? Will you be flying your time off at their place? If so, what is the local flying test area like as far as terrain and emergency landing places? What about motel accommodations / cost in each area. If it matters, ask what there is to do in the local on weekends or when you are not busy building.

What type of other questions would you want answered before you buy?
What does your secretary look like? Just kidding. I think we covered the main concerns. Others will likely have good suggestions as well.

Jim, it will probably be a while until they have a demonstrator flying to take prospective Lightning buyers for a flight. I would be happy to take you for a flight in 31BZ. I have taken other Lightning buyers for demo flights. We can do that in Virginia or the next time I am in SYI - probably early February. My Esqual is modified with Lightning parts and is pretty close to the prototype in performance. But I will admit the Lightning flys better - slightly faster, slightly more aileron and rudder authority, and more stable on final.

Blue Skies,
Buz


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:21 am    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

Great answers Buzz: The insurance costs you quote are right in line with what it costs me to insure the Bonanza. Jim, it may pay you to check with someone besides Falcon. I found about 10 years ago that other agents may be several hundred dollars cheaper (and still are)

Buzz, I was told at the Expo in Sebring that one could put a Lightning together for about $65,000. But from what you have said, it appears that it will cost at least 75 and probably closer to 85,000?
It appears that I may be able to sell the Bonanza, but I will have a real problem if the cost is so high.
I definitely like and want the Lightning, but cost is a real bugaboo!
Lynn
[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:17 am    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

Actually I think that the cost of the Hobbs machine I was told was closer to
$56k. I think that Buz was saying that he insured it for more because if he
were to resale the airplane now that it is complete and has the bugs worked
out it'd be worth that much more. It really comes down to avionics in the
longrun as you basically have one choice of engine and the airframe costs
are the same. Brian W.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

Lynn,
Up until about two years ago, I had all of my airplanes insured with AVEMCO. When they opted out of insuring experimentals is when EAA went to Falcon as their "official" insurer. AVEMCO did continue to insure my Pitts since I had been with them for so long, but when I finished the Esqual they did not want to take on any other experimental aircraft. I still have my Cub with AVEMCO as they were much cheaper than Falcon on it. In fact over the years when I had three airplanes insured with AVEMCO they were normally at least a thousand dollars cheaper on the total insurance bill. My M-35 Bonanza was a past Oshkosh and Sun-N-Fun champion and I had it covered for $85K, the J-3 Cub Sport was a past antique champion as well and it was covered for $30K, and the Pitts was covered for $30. AVEMCO at the time had an EAA discount if you were a member, a chapter discount if you were in a local EAA chapter, and a multi-plane discount since you can only fly one at a time. With my flying time the total bill on all three was only around $2500 - a great price. Every few years I would try to get a quote from other companies and, as I said above, the other companies could never come close to AVEMCO's coverages and price.  Too bad they don't still do experimentals.
Falcon will actually give you two quotes, one with the EAA association benefits, and another without. I think the two numbers actually come from different providers. Remember, Falcon is an agency and look for coverages from other insurers. AVEMCO, on the other hand, is the insurer itself. You can certainly shop around and maybe find experimental coverage cheaper, but the Falcon agents do seem to understand the experimental market and the types of aircraft. Falcon is also the insurer for the American Bonanza Society and the International Aerobatic Club (division of EAA).
One other thought on insurance. If possible, talk to others that have had claims with any company you are considering and see how they were treated. Over a period of 15 years or so, I had two bird strikes with the Bonanza. The first one was coming home from Oshkosh - hit a bird on the left nose gear door in the landing pattern in Ohio. The next, many years later, was in my local area and was a seagull hit on the nose bowl. AVEMCO was great in both cases, quick to be sure my airplane was brought back to original condition and that I was happy, and also covering other expenses that I had while it was being fixed. And no, I don't work for AVEMCO. Just a happy customer. Just my $.02, your mileage may vary.
Lynn, as to cost to build, I think you can put an Lightning together for somewhere around $55K if you use "round dial" instruments and build it at home. Plan on the ball park figure of $65K if you use the builder assist. The price goes up from these numbers as you upgrade your instrument panel and add things like auto pilot, etc. My panel has all the bells and whistles with a great auto pilot, but it is all experimental equipment. If you go the certified equipment route it is easy to perhaps have more in the panel than you have in the engine/airframe. And remember my airframe has numerous mods that added time and dollars, and a really nice interior. All of these run the overall price up. The standard Lightning kit includes all of the mods that I did, so you are covered there when you buy the kit. (Note: the Lightning kit is at about $10K less than the Esqual kit and already includes all the mods I did to my Esqual.) I have not seen a completed standard Lightning interior (the prototype was basic) but when they finish their demonstrator, that will give you a good idea what the standard kit will include for that. Bottom line, I think the Lightning is the best bang for the buck in experimental aircraft kits that can be built quickly and have the overall performance envelope that it provides. It certainly meets every aspect of its design goals.
Blue Skies,
Buz
[quote][b]


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vettin74(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

It is true that a builder who built the plane themselves with out the Build assist the cost would be about this for a good VFR aircraft: $33,900 kit, $14,900 jabiru 6 cyl,
$800 W64ZK56 prop, $850 speed kit, $5000 paint, $2800 GRT sport, $900 EIS6000,
$3100 Becker Radio/ Transponder combo, $200 PM501 intercom, $3000 interior, and maybe an extra $1000 for all the little odds and ends, and you still are at about $61,450 and those are rounded up numbers. Now if you add $3,000 per week of build assist , 3 weeks worth , a Panel pre-wire from us $1,200, and a custom panel face from us $600 than you might be at $72,250 so it depends if you want to build your self ...or come build with us......either way you will have a great flying aircraft.

Nick

IFLYSMODEL(at)aol.com wrote:
[quote] Great answers Buzz: The insurance costs you quote are right in line with what it costs me to insure the Bonanza. Jim, it may pay you to check with someone besides Falcon. I found about 10 years ago that other agents may be several hundred dollars cheaper (and still are)

Buzz, I was told at the Expo in Sebring that one could put a Lightning together for about $65,000. But from what you have said, it appears that it will cost at least 75 and probably closer to 85,000?
It appears that I may be able to sell the Bonanza, but I will have a real problem if the cost is so high.
I definitely like and want the Lightning, but cost is a real bugaboo!
Lynn
[quote][b]No need to miss a message. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ]Get email on-the-go [/url]
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43910/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ]Get started.[/url] [quote][b]


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Daniel Vandenberg



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

Nick or Pete...a few questons:

Is there any cost for storage of the kit/airplane at your facility between builder-assist weeks?

How long could a builder keep the kit with you guys between builder-assist weeks before you guys get uncomfortable?

What would be an estimated cost to have your staff do the test flying, rigging adjustments, and fly off the initial 40 hours on a newly built Lightning?

Is interior upholstery similar to Buzz's Esqual LS interior available for the Lightning?

Finally...I was watching the video of Brian's landing in Gregg Hobbs airplane on the web site. It's a little fuzzy, but if I'm not mistaken it looks like (after the mains bounced once) the nose gear comes down and then bounces up before coming down a second time. This leads to a question: How is the elevator authority on runout? Is it sufficient to allow the nose to be held off briefly...and then lowered gently to the runway? Not trying to be critical...just want to be assured that the weight differential between the main gear and the nosewheel has been optimized.

Thanks...

Dan

nick otterback <vettin74(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] It is true that a builder who built the plane themselves with out the Build assist the cost would be about this for a good VFR aircraft: $33,900 kit, $14,900 jabiru 6 cyl,
$800 W64ZK56 prop, $850 speed kit, $5000 paint, $2800 GRT sport, $900 EIS6000,
$3100 Becker Radio/ Transponder combo, $200 PM501 intercom, $3000 interior, and maybe an extra $1000 for all the little odds and ends, and you still are at about $61,450 and those are rounded up numbers. Now if you add $3,000 per week of build assist , 3 weeks worth , a Panel pre-wire from us $1,200, and a custom panel face from us $600 than you might be at $72,250 so it depends if you want to build your self ...or come build with us......either way you will have a great flying aircraft.

Nick

IFLYSMODEL(at)aol.com wrote:
[quote] Great answers Buzz: The insurance costs you quote are right in line with what it costs me to insure the Bonanza. Jim, it may pay you to check with someone besides Falcon. I found about 10 years ago that other agents may be several hundred dollars cheaper (and still are)

Buzz, I was told at the Expo in Sebring that one could put a Lightning together for about We won't tell. Get more on [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ]shows you hate to love[/url]
(and love to hate): [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ]Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.[/url] [quote][b]


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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Moving on... Reply with quote

Dan,
The guys do keep the plane inside between builder assist. I'm not sure
for how long they do it before feeling uncomfortable and they'd have to
answer that one. Nick usually flies the first 5 hours or so and makes sure
the rigging is right. Then a lot of times they hand it over to me to fly
the rest of the time off. I usually charge a pretty fair/affordable price
on that.

Dang, they did put the worst landing that I've made in years on the internet
didn't they? The plane has plenty of elevator authority, and it was
actually a pretty approach. Problem was that was in the Hobbs Lightning
which he had done all the flying in and not let us do any of the test
flying. The rigging was out and there were some issues with the way that he
mounted the horizontal stabilizer. Problem on that flight was that
everytime that I trimmed I noticed the stick forces got stronger, not
weaker. i.e. it was trimming the wrong way. That had to do with the way
the tail was put on not being quiet right. So I reversed my thinking and it
worked better, but still ran short on trim. I could fully trim it to the
stops and let go of the stick and everything hit the canopy with it trying
to nose over. It took the guys some time to figure out the problem and get
the trim issue solved since his tailfeathers were on wrong. After that the
plane flew much better. The video was before that issue was solved and when
the plane landed it needed to be landed like a taildragger in that you
needed to put the stick all the way back. I landed it like a nosedragger
and the nosedown tendency from the trim issues come into play and the nose
dropped, the front gear hit and sprang us back into the air.

Another thing to note is that Greg's plane was built before there was any
kind of builder manual and it is almost like prototype 1.5 if you will.
Greg's plane is something like 200lbs heavier empty weight than other
production planes. It also had a much further aft CG when empty than others
and would nearly set on its tail if you bumped it. My thinking on that
landing was to not scrape the tail. I've got about 1,500 landings and that
would be the worst in years. Oh well, at least there's video of the planes
in flight. Brian W.
From: Daniel Vandenberg <djvdb63(at)yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Moving on...
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 15:46:51 -0800 (PST)

Nick or Pete...a few questons:

Is there any cost for storage of the kit/airplane at your facility between
builder-assist weeks?

How long could a builder keep the kit with you guys between builder-assist
weeks before you guys get uncomfortable?

What would be an estimated cost to have your staff do the test flying,
rigging adjustments, and fly off the initial 40 hours on a newly built
Lightning?

Is interior upholstery similar to Buzz's Esqual LS interior available for
the Lightning?

Finally...I was watching the video of Brian's landing in Gregg Hobbs
airplane on the web site. It's a little fuzzy, but if I'm not mistaken it
looks like (after the mains bounced once) the nose gear comes down and then
bounces up before coming down a second time. This leads to a question: How
is the elevator authority on runout? Is it sufficient to allow the nose to
be held off briefly...and then lowered gently to the runway? Not trying to
be critical...just want to be assured that the weight differential between
the main gear and the nosewheel has been optimized.

Thanks...

Dan

nick otterback <vettin74(at)yahoo.com> wrote: It is true that a builder who
built the plane themselves with out the Build assist the cost would be about
this for a good VFR aircraft: $33,900 kit, $14,900 jabiru 6 cyl,
$800 W64ZK56 prop, $850 speed kit, $5000 paint, $2800 GRT sport, $900
EIS6000,
$3100 Becker Radio/ Transponder combo, $200 PM501 intercom, $3000
interior, and maybe an extra $1000 for all the little odds and ends, and you
still are at about $61,450 and those are rounded up numbers. Now if you
add $3,000 per week of build assist , 3 weeks worth , a Panel pre-wire from
us $1,200, and a custom panel face from us $600 than you might be at $72,250
so it depends if you want to build your self ...or come build with
us......either way you will have a great flying aircraft.

Nick

IFLYSMODEL(at)aol.com wrote:
Great answers Buzz: The insurance costs you quote are right in
line with what it costs me to insure the Bonanza. Jim, it may pay you to
check with someone besides Falcon. I found about 10 years ago that other
agents may be several hundred dollars cheaper (and still are)

Buzz, I was told at the Expo in Sebring that one could put a Lightning
together for about $65,000. But from what you have said, it appears that it
will cost at least 75 and probably closer to 85,000?
It appears that I may be able to sell the Bonanza, but I will have a real
problem if the cost is so high.
I definitely like and want the Lightning, but cost is a real bugaboo!
Lynn
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