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Flying off the hours
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pequeajim



Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:49 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Another thing I was wondering about...

If I complete the Lightning and have it inspected for air worthyness at a dealer, can the aircraft be ferried to my home airport to fly off the hours? Or when I start flying off the hours, can I change my home base to another airport within the 50 mile radius while flying off the hours?

The dealer is about 70 miles from my home airport, however, there is another airport in between that is <50 miles from the dealer.

I would like to take my time and fly off the bulk of the hours at my home airport, but it seems that the only way to get it there is to take the wings off and trailer it home?

Is there any other solution?


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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:07 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

I don't know if you can go more than 50 miles, but John Davis took his home
with about 5 hours I think. Now his is really close by, so it may be within
30 miles. Good question though, that I like to know. Brian W.

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pequeajim



Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

There is an airport that is <50 miles from Green Landings, and it is drivable, (45-60 minutes). If I made that my home base, do I have to park the aircraft there until the hours are all flown off? With it that far away, it might take me 6 months until I reach 50!

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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Jim,
The answer to your question is, "It all depends". It really depends on the FAA office or person that you are dealing with. For example, the DAR that does the inspections in SYI is an EAA member and aircraft builder himself. He has done many aircraft inspections for the SYI gang (Jabirus, Esquals, Lightnings and others) and he certainly feels comfortable with the work that is coming out of that shop. Therefore, he would probably be more inclined to give his "stamp of approval" on something like a test area that had a different home base than the one the aircraft made the initial flight from.
As far as ferry permits, again it would depend on the FAA office you were working with, but a ferry permit might be harder to get approved unless you were much closer to completing your 40 hours. If you chose to trailer your completed airplane home, then you would work with your FAA office in you home area to get a specific test area approved there. They would also be who you go to when you put in for your "Repairman's Certificate".
Sorry I can't be more specific.
Buz
[quote][b]


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pequeajim



Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

How many hours is the Lightning required to fly off with the 3300?? I'm asking that because I'm not sure if the 3300 is viewed as a certified engine by the FAA and therefor does not require the additional hours like a kit built engine?

(please excuse my ignorance)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

I thought it was 40 hours
--- pequeajim <pequeajim(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

<pequeajim(at)gmail.com>

DOes the lightning require 50 hours or 25? I'm
asking that because I'm not sure if the 3300 is
viewed as a certified engine by the FAA and therefor
does not require the additional hours like a kit
built engine?

(please excuse my ignorance)




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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

I thought it was 40 hours
--- pequeajim <pequeajim(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

<pequeajim(at)gmail.com>

DOes the lightning require 50 hours or 25? I'm
asking that because I'm not sure if the 3300 is
viewed as a certified engine by the FAA and therefor
does not require the additional hours like a kit
built engine?

(please excuse my ignorance)




Read this topic online here:


http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90951#90951

Quote:








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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

I thought it was 40 hours
--- pequeajim <pequeajim(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

<pequeajim(at)gmail.com>

DOes the lightning require 50 hours or 25? I'm
asking that because I'm not sure if the 3300 is
viewed as a certified engine by the FAA and therefor
does not require the additional hours like a kit
built engine?

(please excuse my ignorance)




Read this topic online here:


http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=90951#90951

Quote:








browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List

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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

In a message dated 1/27/2007 10:46:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pequeajim(at)gmail.com writes:
Quote:
DOes the lightning require 50 hours or 25?


Boy, Jim, you really must be looking at some old regulations. Based on current regulations, the Lightning will require 40 hours because the engine is not certified (part 23???) in the US. If you had a Lycoming or Continental on board (US engines) it would be 25 hours. In the old days (when I built my Pitts) it was 50 hours no matter what.
You will be surprised how quickly the time goes by IF you really do a full test profile for your airplane. Many do not.
Blue Skies,
Buz
[quote][b]


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pequeajim



Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:18 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Yeah, that was my bad… I don’t know why I had 50 stuck in my head!


From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:13 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Flying off the hours


In a message dated 1/27/2007 10:46:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pequeajim(at)gmail.com writes:
Quote:

DOes the lightning require 50 hours or 25?


Boy, Jim, you really must be looking at some old regulations. Based on current regulations, the Lightning will require 40 hours because the engine is not certified (part 23???) in the US. If you had a Lycoming or Continental on board (US engines) it would be 25 hours. In the old days (when I built my Pitts) it was 50 hours no matter what.

You will be surprised how quickly the time goes by IF you really do a full test profile for your airplane. Many do not.

Blue Skies,

Buz
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pjdisher(at)bigpond.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:04 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Hi Buz and Nick,

This is Peter Disher - Sydney Australia.

You mentioned Buz, a "Full test profoil" when flying off ones hours.
Could I ask, In my ignorance, Is this a written procudure for one to follow ?
If so and if aviable., could I get a copy? or let me know where I could.
It would certainly be most helpfull when my turn arrives.

[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Peter,
I have forwarded to you via email all the Word attachments that Buzz kindly provided some time ago (thanks Buzz).

Whilst I’m here, I’m looking for contact info for the builders of two Lightning’s that are being built in Perth, Australia currently. Anyone on those on the list?

Regards,
Steve Vojkovic
Perth, Australia


From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter and Jan Disher
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:04 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Flying off the hours


Hi Buz and Nick,



This is Peter Disher - Sydney Australia.



You mentioned Buz, a "Full test profoil" when flying off ones hours.

Could I ask, In my ignorance, Is this a written procudure for one to follow ?

If so and if aviable., could I get a copy? or let me know where I could.

It would certainly be most helpfull when my turn arrives.
[quote] [b]


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:00 pm    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Hi Steve,
Many thanks with what you have sent,
I'm not to sure who the other builders are in Perth your best to call Dennis Borchardt in SA.
I live in the North Coast NSW and expecting my kit around end of FEB. Its taken a while to get so you should get your order in Steve and get cracking .

Regards
Pete Disher
Hallidays Point
Aust.
02 6559 2599
[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:12 am    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Hi Peter,
What I am getting at is that many builders kind of take a short cut when testing their aircraft. Their main goal seems to be to just fly off the hours without really testing their aircraft's complete operating envelop to determine aircraft handling characteristics, specific performance parameters, and safety margins for their specific airplane. Luckily, most get away with this because the original designer went through extensive testing, but bottom line is that all homebuilt aircraft are different. They are not "cookie cutter" exact replicas of the originals as would be a "store bought" airplane. When they take this short cut approach they really never know exactly what their aircraft will do as to specific performance parameters or how their aircraft might react at the edges of the flying envelop. Actual data for such things as their aircraft's best climb speed, best glide speed, cruise speeds at various altitudes and rpm (and fuel flows at these parameters) are not really known. They just have "numbers" that the aircraft designer provided based on the prototype which may or may not be close for their specific aircraft example. Maybe better than a complete "WAG", but not specific at all.
Guidelines for a complete test profile are found in our FAA's Advisory Circular -AC 90-89 - which is titled, Amateur-Built Aircraft Test Flying Handbook. Also, additional information is available through the EAA and their Flight Advisor program. The Australia FAA equivalent agency may also have a similar handout. I am pretty sure that FAA AC 90-89 is available on line at: www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/ac90-89a.pdf
However, if you get in touch with EAA they can provide a copy of this Advisory Circular and also put you in touch with one of their Flight Advisors. Over the years since the Flight Advisor program was started by EAA, it has been very successful at reducing the accident rate on "first flights" and during the test flight hours. I have been a Flight Advisor for various types of homebuilts since the program started and I enjoy working with builders to help prepare them for their initial flight and test program. Your EAA equivalent in Australia may have a similar program, but if not, get in touch with EAA.
I think Steve has already sent you a file with the outline of the phased test program that I developed and used when testing my Esqual LS (Lightning Stuff - mods). I have shared it with anyone interested - with the thought that it is one way to do it and that it worked for me. It is based on info from both the Advisory Circular and the Flight Advisor program. In my overall outline the initial first flights are pretty specific as to test flight profiles, with the later test phases just outlining the types of objectives to look for during those phases and flights. You develop specific flight profiles for each of the later flights based on previously flown flights and resulting information gained on those test flights. All of the data you gain during the test program is used to develop and write your aircraft's pilot's operating flight manual. Again, the aircraft designer will provide you with a draft flight manual, but it is up to you to "fill in the blanks" such as specific performance data, etc.
Hope this helps.
Blue Skies,
Buz Rich

[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Let me add that the prototype Lightning's flight manual is outstanding - with inputs from Pete and Nick, I wrote it, so it must be good. Smile It is a very detailed document divided into nine sections - General Information, Limitations, Emergency Procedures, Normal Procedures, Performance Data, Weight and Balance, Aircraft Systems, Care, Maintenance and handling, and Supplements (incase the designer or builder has future changes to the basic manual). I used USAF fighter flight manuals as the model since that is what I am use to. Each section in the Lightning manual has much more specific data that any other experimental or homebuilt flight manual than I have seen, especially section five. When you update it with the data that you glean from your flight testing you will have a very accurate and complete flight manual. Something you can be proud to show to people who are already "ogling" your homebuilt creation. 
Buz
[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:54 am    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Example: John Davis flew back to Crossville, Tn from Shelbyville.
Crossville is 70 miles from Shelbyville. John requested that his 50 NM
radius test area be centered on McMinnville - 35 miles from Shelbyville and
35 from Crossville. All flights between the two airports are within John's
area.

We have had customers who have found it easy to get a new area assigned to
complete their testing and have had customers who have found it difficult
(Phoenix area) to get a new area assigned.

Pete

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:57 am    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Let me just take Buz’ statement just a bit further – if you have a Continental or Lycoming or any other FAR Part 23 certified engine AND a certified prop – then it is 25 hours. It is the engine / prop combo that must carry the certification. If one of the items is not certified then it is 40 hors.

Pete


From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:13 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Flying off the hours


In a message dated 1/27/2007 10:46:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pequeajim(at)gmail.com writes:
Quote:

DOes the lightning require 50 hours or 25?


Boy, Jim, you really must be looking at some old regulations. Based on current regulations, the Lightning will require 40 hours because the engine is not certified (part 23???) in the US. If you had a Lycoming or Continental on board (US engines) it would be 25 hours. In the old days (when I built my Pitts) it was 50 hours no matter what.

You will be surprised how quickly the time goes by IF you really do a full test profile for your airplane. Many do not.

Blue Skies,

Buz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:52 am    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

I had designed a flight test profile completely independent of Buz's
profile. I too based it off of the advisory circular put out by the FAA.
Buz shared his profile with me and it looks pretty similar to what I had
come up with. It's a good thing to read if you plan on flying the time off
yourself.

I'd second that the Lightning manual is a very thorough and complete manual.
I haven't flown a whole lot of other types of experimental aircraft but
have seen many "pilot information manuals" which left a lot to be desired.
The quality of Buz's work I'd have to compare to the checklists that I used
at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, the rewrite of the Cirrus manual
done by University of North Dakota Aerospace program (now used in the Cirrus
standardization training), or some of military checklist that I have seen.
Very good job and once you have filled in all the exact numbers for your
exact plane then it can be used just like any other POH. Brian W.

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pequeajim



Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

Thanks guys. I think that clarifies things for me.


From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 10:57 AM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Flying off the hours


Let me just take Buz’ statement just a bit further – if you have a Continental or Lycoming or any other FAR Part 23 certified engine AND a certified prop – then it is 25 hours. It is the engine / prop combo that must carry the certification. If one of the items is not certified then it is 40 hors.

Pete


From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 10:13 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Flying off the hours


In a message dated 1/27/2007 10:46:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, pequeajim(at)gmail.com writes:
Quote:

DOes the lightning require 50 hours or 25?


Boy, Jim, you really must be looking at some old regulations. Based on current regulations, the Lightning will require 40 hours because the engine is not certified (part 23???) in the US. If you had a Lycoming or Continental on board (US engines) it would be 25 hours. In the old days (when I built my Pitts) it was 50 hours no matter what.

You will be surprised how quickly the time goes by IF you really do a full test profile for your airplane. Many do not.

Blue Skies,

Buz
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pequeajim



Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 708
Location: New Holland, PA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:57 am    Post subject: Flying off the hours Reply with quote

So, from Green Landings, I could request that the center of my test area be,
say Gettysburg, (about 40nm from GL and 40+nm from Lancaster). That would
make it work.

I want to be able to get back and forth to GL while flying off the hours,
even if I have to go by way of Gettysburg. This will allow me to use their
expertise when fine tuning my aircraft.

Jim!

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