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lumkes(at)msoe.edu
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

The recent little  snippet about how to switch the COM antenna to a handheld made me think of a  scenario I am considering for my panel: What opinions does this group have about  using a handheld for the primary and only radio. My flying would almost all be  local with some cross country (Zenith601). I am leaning towards the ICOM-A24 or  Sporty's SP-200, both with NAV/COM. The radio would be "hard-wired" to the plane  in terms of external antenna, headset adapter, and external power planned ahead  for a desired mounting location. Since I plan on having a moving map and GPS  (probably PocketFMS on a mini-ITX or similar) the NAV portion of the radios  would only be backup, and from what I have read, that already might be asking a  lot of these features as installed in a handheld. Besides the NAV feature,  buying one of the handhelds for my primary COM is cheaper, newer electronics  technology, lower in weight, and flexible in terms of future options or  upgrades.

  

 Thanks,

 John

 Zenith601HD/R912--70% complete

    [quote][b]

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

Good Morning John,   

 Why not just scratch the Navigation portion?

  

 I bought the communication only version of my last handheld because it has  bigger lettering which is easier for my old eyes to read.

  

 If you are VFR only, you are very likely going to be flying occasionally at  altitudes and in places where VOR reception is poor.  GPS is much better  almost all of the time. 

  

 For emergency back up, carry a second or third GPS!

  

 I am not familiar with all of the products now available in the market, but  I bought a Garmin E-trex several years ago for less than a hundred bucks. It has  the same chip as the fifteen thousand dollar units.

  

 It will tell you within one hundred feet where you are anywhere on the  planet earth. Beats the devil out of any VOR based unit.

  

 Chances are there are better and cheaper units available now than there  were back then.

  

 If you do go down in the boonies and are capable of getting out of your  machine, the handheld radio will allow you a good chance of being able to  contact somebody on 121.5 and the handheld GPS will allow you to tell the  rescuers where you are.

  

 I carry a small leather bag that contains a basic GPS, an extra I-Com with  a AA battery pack and a large supply of batteries  for both.

  

 That bag, and clothing suitable for the area being overflown, should  provide very good potential for early and successful rescue.  

  

 Wouldn't be a bad idea to carry the bag on automobile trips!

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



  

 In a message dated 1/31/2007 8:20:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,  lumkes(at)msoe.edu writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     The recent little    snippet about how to switch the COM antenna to a handheld made me think of a    scenario I am considering for my panel: What opinions does this group have    about using a handheld for the primary and only radio. My flying would almost    all be local with some cross country (Zenith601). I am leaning towards the    ICOM-A24 or Sporty's SP-200, both with NAV/COM. The radio would be    "hard-wired" to the plane in terms of external antenna, headset adapter, and    external power planned ahead for a desired mounting location. Since I plan on    having a moving map and GPS (probably PocketFMS on a mini-ITX or similar) the    NAV portion of the radios would only be backup, and from what I have read,    that already might be asking a lot of these features as installed in a    handheld. Besides the NAV feature, buying one of the handhelds for my primary    COM is cheaper, newer electronics technology, lower in weight, and flexible in    terms of future options or upgrades.

    

   Thanks,

   John

   Zenith601HD/R912--70% complete

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	


 



  

  [quote][b]

aurbo(at)ak.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

John,

  

 I used to fly a 1946 Taylorcraft with no  electrical system. I used it for "fish spotting" and having radio's were  mandatory. I used a hand held exclusively, I built a holder for it and used  a  head set and PTT and it worked great. I finally got tired of the stupid  little battery going dead and wired in a wheel chair battery and that took care  of that problem.

  

 So, for a com radio a hand held is great  (IMHO) and with the external antenna you won't have any trouble talking to  ATC.

  

 Mike Ice

 Anchorage, Alaska

 [quote]   ---

N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

Hi John,



Here's my 2 cents worth:



It's going to depend on what kind of flying you do.  If you fly in or 

around controlled airspace that requires you to be in contact with 

ATC, or if you plan to do a lot of cross country flying with Flight 

Following, then you're going to find the handheld to be 

inconvenient.  If you don't expect to be doing much talking to 

controllers, then it might be a better deal.



Here's why:  As you are cruising along at 8500 feet chatting with 

your friend in the seat next to you or listening to tunes on your 

iPod, suddenly ATC will pop in and say "Barnstormer 34 Xray contact 

Lubbock Approach one two six point niner five goodday".  Now, you 

only have a scant few seconds to respond, before ATC will try to 

contact you again (which you don't want).



If you have a conventional radio with a Standby window, then

1. the instant you hear your callsign, you shush your copilot and put 

your fingers on the comm radio frequency selector,

2. while ATC is reading you the new frequency, you are dialing it 

into the Standby window

3. then you read it back to him in the split second after he says it 

and wish him a good day

4. you write the new freq down on your notepad for reference

5. press the transfer button, and you're on the new frequency ready 

to contact the next ATC.



If you don't have a standby window, you have to

1. wait until he finishes reading you the frequency, while writing it 

down, if you can find your pencil, OR

2. memorize the frequency - risky as you get older 

3. then read it back to him

4. then dial the new frequency into the radio



If you are unable to raise ATC on the new frequency, the standby 

window type of radio gives you the ability to hit the transfer 

button, go back to the previous frequency, and check in again to 

verify you have the frequency correctly or get new instructions.



I have personally found the 2 window Com radio to be a great 

invention.  The busier the airspace you're in, the faster you want to 

be able to react to ATC.  Just last Sunday I was flying through the 

DFW Class B airspace mixing it up with 757s and other planes coming 

in and out of some very busy airspace.  The controller was rattling 

off instructions virtually non-stop.  But every so often there would 

be a shriek, a pause, and confusion.  Turns out a poor Cherokee pilot 

had lost his primary radio and was trying to use a handheld.  He must 

not have had an external antenna on it, because he would stomp all 

over the approach controller or other airplanes, calling for 

approach, and never hearing anything, so he'd do it again and again 

and again.  This went on for about 20 minutes.  The controller was 

about to stroke out from rage, and all of us pilots had eyes the size 

of saucers, were quiet (as the proverbial big-mouth frog at the end 

of that joke), and were EXTREMELY fast with our transmissions and 

reactions to anything ATC said.  The best course for that poor 

Cherokee pilot would have been to get out of the Class B post haste 

and reassess the utility of that particular handheld installation.



As for the utility of the NAV section on the radio, you're going to 

be using your GPS for everything, so the NAV will strictly be a 

backup.  I hardly even fly by the DG any more... Ground Track is the 

most important thing in getting there, and the GPS becomes the focal 

point of all navigation.  I have a Loran and a Nav radio as my 3rd 

and 4th backups (after pilotage), but rarely actually use them.



I carry a handheld JRC com/nav radio in my flight bag in case 

everything goes to hell.



Dave Morris

www.N6030X.com

At 08:14 AM 1/31/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The recent little snippet about how to switch the COM antenna to a 

handheld made me think of a scenario I am considering for my panel: 

What opinions does this group have about using a handheld for the 

primary and only radio. My flying would almost all be local with 

some cross country (Zenith601). I am leaning towards the ICOM-A24 or 

Sporty's SP-200, both with NAV/COM. The radio would be "hard-wired" 

to the plane in terms of external antenna, headset adapter, and 

external power planned ahead for a desired mounting location. Since 

I plan on having a moving map and GPS (probably PocketFMS on a 

mini-ITX or similar) the NAV portion of the radios would only be 

backup, and from what I have read, that already might be asking a 

lot of these features as installed in a handheld. Besides the NAV 

feature, buying one of the handhelds for my primary COM is cheaper, 

newer electronics technology, lower in weight, and flexible in terms 

of future options or upgrades.



Thanks,

John

Zenith601HD/R912--70% complete

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

At 09:14 AM 1/31/2007 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  The recent little snippet about how to switch the COM antenna to a 

handheld made me think of a scenario I am considering for my panel: What 

opinions does this group have about using a handheld for the primary and 

only radio. My flying would almost all be local with some cross country 

(Zenith601). I am leaning towards the ICOM-A24 or Sporty's SP-200, both 

with NAV/COM. The radio would be "hard-wired" to the plane in terms of 

external antenna, headset adapter, and external power planned ahead for a 

desired mounting location. Since I plan on having a moving map and GPS 

(probably PocketFMS on a mini-ITX or similar) the NAV portion of the 

radios would only be backup, and from what I have read, that already might 

be asking a lot of these features as installed in a handheld. Besides the 

NAV feature, buying one of the handhelds for my primary COM is cheaper, 

newer electronics technology, lower in weight, and flexible in terms of 

future options or upgrades.


	


    It's been done many times. I've got pictures somewhere

    showing various brackets on panel and sidewalls where

    builders have provided mounting provisions for a hand-held

    along with wire dressing techniques that keep the bundles

    reasonable organized when the hand-held is slipped out

    of the bracket for programming, etc.



    Bob . . .

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

Yes I would have to agree with the last two posts on this.



I flew my Zodiac for 400 hours and had a Icom A200 and a handheld

GPS...Oh and a transponder which I really found to be essential, not

only for flying controlled airspace but for flight following too. 



My one experience with a handheld com was less than stella and I simply

decided to remember "7600" for the transponder code if the radio died.

Doing it this way avoids you having to explain that your radio died to

ATC who probably won't be able to hear you anyway.



Then if you can hear ATC he will give you directions and if you can't

you simply turn around and get out of their airspace.



If the concern is going down somewhere I think I would invest in a GPS

powered PLB....And if the landing looks hairy activate it before you hit

the trees!



If cost is a concern, there are many second hand older handheld GPS

units out there that work perfectly well....My old Lowrance will be

going into my flight bag as a backup to my IFR panel mount.



As to the ICOM radio...I was so impressed with it, it is is also now my

Com1 unit in my RV7.



Personally I would forget about using VOR's I'm half way thru my IFR

training and I still get confused by them.



If you intend to do a lot of Xcountry work in your Zodiac the one really

nice upgrade I would suggest is a Trutrak autopilot...Spendy yes but the

Zodac is a twitchy beast (at least the HDS was) and I thing the wing

leveler would see you arrive fresh rather than ragged as always happened

to me after more than two hours of flying the thing.



Frank



--

SteveR

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Aledo, TX

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

John,



With a good quality install like you are talking about, I see no  

reason not to do it.  I use a Vertex VXA-150 handheld as my primary  

radio in my Pietenpol, and I have no problems with it.  I was even  

based at a very busy class D airport under KDFW's class B for nearly a  

year (Meacham, or KFTW, in Fort Worth), and I never had any problems.   

If you have external power, an external antenna, and a reliable  

headset connection, it is not a bad idea IMO.  With an external  

antenna that I made from a brass brazing rod, I have been able to  

transmit and recieve over 80 miles air to air, and I can reliably  

communicate with anyone who has a decent radio at 40 miles.  I even  

used the handheld on an 840 mile trip bringing the plane home.



The one thing that would be more handy with the handheld is a  

"flip-flop" feature, and maybe easier to use presets for different  

frequencies.  The menus on the VXA-150 are cumbersome to use, but  

otherwise I'm happy.



The antenna is critical, you may already know how to make one, but if  

you are still studying that, Google Jim Weir of RST Engineering  

(www.rst-engr.com)...he sells an inexpensive booklet that will tell  

you everything you need to know about antennas.



One thing that is a bad idea in my opinion is the NAV feature.  Skip  

it, and spend that $100 on a handheld portable GPS if you really want  

a backup.  In an emergency or a critical situation, fumbling with the  

NAV feature on a handheld will likely just waste your time in my  

opinion.  A handheld GPS will give you much more information with much  

less work and for about the same amount of money.



Steve Ruse

WOT Electronics



Quoting John and Kim Lumkes <lumkes(at)msoe.edu>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The recent little snippet about how to switch the COM antenna to a handheld

 made me think of a scenario I am considering for my panel: What opinions

 does this group have about using a handheld for the primary and only radio.

 My flying would almost all be local with some cross country (Zenith601). I

 am leaning towards the ICOM-A24 or Sporty's SP-200, both with NAV/COM. The

 radio would be "hard-wired" to the plane in terms of external antenna,

 headset adapter, and external power planned ahead for a desired mounting

 location. Since I plan on having a moving map and GPS (probably PocketFMS on

 a mini-ITX or similar) the NAV portion of the radios would only be backup,

 and from what I have read, that already might be asking a lot of these

 features as installed in a handheld. Besides the NAV feature, buying one of

 the handhelds for my primary COM is cheaper, newer electronics technology,

 lower in weight, and flexible in terms of future options or upgrades.



 Thanks,

 John

 Zenith601HD/R912--70% complete

JOHN TIPTON

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Torquay - England

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

I presume you are in the USA, over here the  majority of 'microlights' use the ICOM as their only radio

  

 John - England

 [quote]   ---

Bill.Dawson(at)pepperdine
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

Im not sure how well the nav portion would work because the nav wants a horizontal antenna. The handheld com/nav would use the same vertical antenna. Yes, a nav will work with a vertical, but it's not the best.



Bill 



--

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: Handheld Radios

John and Kim Lumkes wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The recent little snippet about how to switch the COM antenna to a 

 handheld made me think of a scenario I am considering for my panel: What 

 opinions does this group have about using a handheld for the primary and 

 only radio. My flying would almost all be local with some cross country 

 (Zenith601). I am leaning towards the ICOM-A24 or Sporty's SP-200, both 

 with NAV/COM. The radio would be "hard-wired" to the plane in terms of 

 external antenna, headset adapter, and external power planned ahead for 

 a desired mounting location. Since I plan on having a moving map and GPS 

 (probably PocketFMS on a mini-ITX or similar) the NAV portion of the 

 radios would only be backup, and from what I have read, that already 

 might be asking a lot of these features as installed in a handheld. 

 Besides the NAV feature, buying one of the handhelds for my primary COM 

 is cheaper, newer electronics technology, lower in weight, and flexible 

 in terms of future options or upgrades.

  

 Thanks,

 John

 Zenith601HD/R912--70% complete


	


With the icom, be absolutely sure it will work on external power (read 

the actual manual) before purchase.



I bought an A-4 on the assurance from the factory rep that it would 

work, only to find after I got it home that it will only charge the 

rechargable battery when power is supplied to the ext. jack(radio 

operation is disabled). Says so right in the manual, which I didn't read 

before purchase.



Charlie

Not a big fan of companies who make bad design decisions, then lie about 

them.

wrmaxwell(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: Handheld Radios

Not familiar with the A24 but the previous model, the A22 will power 

externally quite happily and here Downunder, is commonly used as the main 

radio in our ultralight category ( similar to the advanced ultralight in 

Canada) without the battery attached.



Bill

---

billsettle(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: Handheld Radios

John,



I used to have a Luscombe 8E.  I used a Garmin GPS/Com 190 Handheld as my only radio.  It did not do that well until I connected it to the external antenna and onboard power.  After that, it worked great.  Never had a problem communicating with anyone.  I could receive up to a couple of hundred miles and transmit up to about 60 miles if I was up around 8-10k.  



Bill Settle

Winston-Salem, NC

RV-8 Wings

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 From: "John and Kim Lumkes" <lumkes(at)msoe.edu>

 Date: 2007/01/31 Wed AM 09:14:42 EST

 To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Handheld Radios

 

 The recent little snippet about how to switch the COM antenna to a handheld

 made me think of a scenario I am considering for my panel: What opinions

 does this group have about using a handheld for the primary and only radio.

 My flying would almost all be local with some cross country (Zenith601). I

 am leaning towards the ICOM-A24 or Sporty's SP-200, both with NAV/COM. The

 radio would be "hard-wired" to the plane in terms of external antenna,

 headset adapter, and external power planned ahead for a desired mounting

 location. Since I plan on having a moving map and GPS (probably PocketFMS on

 a mini-ITX or similar) the NAV portion of the radios would only be backup,

 and from what I have read, that already might be asking a lot of these

 features as installed in a handheld. Besides the NAV feature, buying one of

 the handhelds for my primary COM is cheaper, newer electronics technology,

 lower in weight, and flexible in terms of future options or upgrades.

  

 Thanks,

 John

 Zenith601HD/R912--70% complete

lumkes(at)msoe.edu
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

Thank you everyone  for the excellent feedback! I am reconsidering the NAV portion and may rethink a  panel mount with dual frequency inputs if I think that I might be in busier  airspace. If I had to purchase right now I think that I would stay with the plan  to use a "mounted" handheld; there seems to be many satisfied people with this  arrangement. I was already planning for a gps moving map and a  handheld gps backup.

  

 Have a great  day,

 John

    [quote][b]

miltonbland(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

About a year ago I  decided to "install" a handheld com radio in my Ercoupe. My decision was  based on a friend who has dual Icom A3's in his Luscombe.  I found a good  deal on a new Vertex 210 Pilot.  It worked great on the ground and ok in  the air with the "rubber ducky" antenna.  But range with that antenna was  limited to about 5 miles or so.  It had a SMA antenna fitting so I  ordered an adapter and hooked up the old com antenna that was still on the  airplane.  That's when the problems really began.  Everything seemed  good on the ground but at about 150 feet in the air the radio would not break  squelch.  Also I picked up interference from FM radio stations, loud but  not always clear.  Basically the radio was useless in the air with the  aircraft antenna.  I called Vertex and they told me the radio was not  engineered for use in an airplane!  I asked them why their manual suggests  otherwise and they told me that was a marketing error!   So much for  customer support.

  

 I now have an Icom  A6 but I have not had an opportunity to try it in the air.  I am hoping it  will work as well as the old A3's.  I have noticed the A3's seem to really  hold their value on eBay.  Maybe that is because they work well as a  primary light sport radio.

  

  

   [quote][b]

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

At 08:23 AM 2/1/2007 -0600, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  About a year ago I decided to "install" a handheld com radio in my 

Ercoupe. My decision was based on a friend who has dual Icom A3's in his 

Luscombe.  I found a good deal on a new Vertex 210 Pilot.  It worked great 

on the ground and ok in the air with the "rubber ducky" antenna.  But 

range with that antenna was limited to about 5 miles or so.  It had a SMA 

antenna fitting so I ordered an adapter and hooked up the old com antenna 

that was still on the airplane.  That's when the problems really 

began.  Everything seemed good on the ground but at about 150 feet in the 

air the radio would not break squelch.  Also I picked up interference from 

FM radio stations, loud but not always clear.  Basically the radio was 

useless in the air with the aircraft antenna.  I called Vertex and they 

told me the radio was not engineered for use in an airplane!  I asked them 

why their manual suggests otherwise and they told me that was a marketing 

error!   So much for customer support.



I now have an Icom A6 but I have not had an opportunity to try it in the 

air.  I am hoping it will work as well as the old A3's.  I have noticed 

the A3's seem to really hold their value on eBay.  Maybe that is because 

they work well as a primary light sport radio.


	


    ICOM has, in my estimation, been at the top of

    the mountain for technical excellence in radio

    manufacturing. The problem you were experiencing

    with FM stations on the other hand-held was due

    to inadequate control of band-pass filtering -

    keeping signals of no interest from getting

    into the receiver's vulnerable "front end".



    This is no mean task . . . especially in miniature

    radios. The FM broadcast band is located just below

    the aircraft band. The broadcast stations are on

    tall towers with effective radiated powers in the

    tens of kilowatts. Your stations of interest in

    aviation are all on short towers with ERP's in the

    tens of watts. So while the hand-held receiver is

    working diligently to decode microvolt intelligence,

    it has to contend with millivolt level antagonists

    located right next door.



    My experience with ICOM many years past is that they

    are demonstrated masters at controlling front end

    pass-band characteristics. I'll have to tell you guys

    about a "hidden transmitter hunt" I participated in

    about 25 years ago where only an ICOM receiver would

    do the job. If anyone has more recent experience that

    argues with this assessment, I'd be pleased to hear

    about it.



    Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------

        ( IF one aspires to be "world class",  )

        ( what ever you do must be exercised   )

        ( EVERY day . . .                      )

        (                  R. L. Nuckolls III  )

        ----------------------------------------

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: Handheld Radios

Good Morning John,   

 I don't have one, but I do believe the newest I-Com has a flip flop  frequency capability.  My only recommendation would be to buy the double A  battery pack as well as the pack with a more modern battery that can be  recharged from ship's power.  I think they still have that available.

  

 Happy  Skies,



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630  985-8503



  

 In a message dated 2/1/2007 8:19:57 A.M. Central Standard Time,  lumkes(at)msoe.edu writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Thank you everyone    for the excellent feedback! I am reconsidering the NAV portion and may rethink    a panel mount with dual frequency inputs if I think that I might be in busier    airspace. If I had to purchase right now I think that I would stay with the    plan to use a "mounted" handheld; there seems to be many satisfied people with    this arrangement. I was already planning for a gps moving map    and a handheld gps backup.

    

   Have a great    day,

   John

	


 



  [quote][b]

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