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dhall(at)donka.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:31 am Post subject: get a grip

For my rv7 flying, I eventually want to get into light aero and some  

formation.  It will be equipped for full IFR, but I generally avoid  

IFR when I can - maybe using that privilege to bust through some not- 

so-low overcast at one end or the other of a trip.  So the question  

is what buttons do I want on the grip?



So far:

- trim

- ptt

- disc-ap?

- flip-flop on com1?

- flaps?

- I've had one recommendation for starter (which makes me wonder  

about a safety on such a switch)

- I've had one recommendation to not put ident on the grip, which is  

always nice for ifr



The reason I'm asking is that I know what I'd want for IFR, but I'm  

not into formation flying yet, so I don't know how that will change  

my needs.

Also, I'm thinking of putting no buttons on the co-pilot grip because  

it might stay stowed as often as not.  Which begs the question for a  

nice location for the co-pilot PTT.  I could just put it in the  

panel, or maybe on the vertical face of that spar cover.   Ideas?

D

John Brunke

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 43

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: get a grip

Dear Don,



I am building a -7 with the same "missions" in mind.   As for the stick, I 

am going with the Ray Allen cushioned

grips ( I had these on my six, very comfortable).    All my stick will have 

is a PTT on it, even for IFR.



Here's my reasoning.

First off, from a wiring standpoint:   How many additional wires will have 

to be run to the stick to get all these

functions to work?   Then we get in to trouble shooting a future problem. 

It will take that much longer to

run checks on these systems if more wiring is involved.  More wires open up 

potential problems due to chafing

and possible bad contacts.  Certainly not an insurmountable problem, but a 

little more complex.



Now sit in your airplane with your hand on the throttle and reach for the 

various switches, knobs and buttons

that you will need to reach for flight.   In an RV cockpit there probably 

isn't that far of a distance to reach

anything.   Trim and flaps can be located close enough to the throttle that 

you could probably reach those without

actually taking your hand off the throttle.   If you have to tune a radio, 

how much trouble is it to reach up and

eventually flip the frequency?   The transponder ident is also usually not 

that far of a reach.  Also how many times

are you asked to ident.   Usually in IFR flight you are just passed from 

controller to controller.   They know you

are coming and don't usually require an ident from you.   VFR they usually 

do ask for an ident since you are

unexpected traffic.



I guess my thought process is to reduce the complexity of the whole system 

and put all your controls

in a logical and convenient place.   With all the items you are thinking 

about including on your stick, you are

essentially using a system used in jet fighter aircraft.   Very high cool 

factor, but from the fighter pilots I

have talked to over the years, they have to practice quite a bit to memorize 

all the functions located on

their sticks and throttles.  Will your switches be different enough for you 

to identify them when you need

them?



Lastly there is always that dreaded cost factor.



Hope I've given you some food for thought.



Happy flying

John Brunke

RV7 tip-up in progress



---

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: get a grip

I must say I went exactly the same way as John's set up. When I see all

the fiddly wires that folks wire into their grips I decided to avoid all

the wires that I could in the grip...So I just have one and have not

found any desire to have more functions on the grip.



Frank 7a IFR



--

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: get a grip

On 6:30 2007-04-17 Don Hall <dhall(at)donka.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   For my rv7 flying, I eventually want to get into light aero and some

 formation.  It will be equipped for full IFR, but I generally avoid

 IFR when I can - maybe using that privilege to bust through some not-

 so-low overcast at one end or the other of a trip.  So the question

 is what buttons do I want on the grip?


	


For what it's worth, I plan to split the starter between a button on the

stick and a button on the throttle, so you need to push both to engage the

starter, and it guarantees that you'll have one hand on each when starting.

 I'm only planning on VFR flight, but this is my plan:



Stick:

Trim (hat switch for aileron and elevator)

Starter (1 of 2)

Smoke on/off



Throttle:

PTT

Flaps (extend, retract)

Starter (2 of 2)



Mind you, I have an ex-military throttle with buttons and levers on it, and

I plan to mount it on a lever between the seats and in front of the spar. 

YMMV.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Also, I'm thinking of putting no buttons on the co-pilot grip because

 it might stay stowed as often as not.  Which begs the question for a

 nice location for the co-pilot PTT.  I could just put it in the

 panel, or maybe on the vertical face of that spar cover.   Ideas?


	


If your throttle is on the panel, i'd suggest putting the passenger PTT on

the panel next to the throttle.  That way, if the passenger is flying, they

have it handy.  I've flown an RV-6A that has the passenger PTT on the

panel, in front of the passenger.  It's handy if the passenger isn't the

one flying, but if the passenger has the controls, they have to let go of

something and hunt for the button if they want to talk.



-Rob

yenduc(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: get a grip

Don:



I used a CH grip and have trims on the "hat", PTT on the trigger, and  

auto  disconnect on the left rear button--  this leaves a couple  

buttons left over.  I put the flap switch just over the throttle;  

this allows operation of the flaps and  throttle with the same hand w/ 

o shifting my hand and I never have to look for the flaps.  I did not  

want to have the flaps on the stick as I reasoned that I might  

inadvertently deploy them at a bad time.  Plus this arrangement makes  

wiring easier and keeps things simpler.



dave



P.S.   After i wired it this way, I sat in the garage in the plane  

making engine noises, looking at the wall with a picture of the sky  

taped on it and it seemed goooood.

On Apr 17, 2007, at 6:30 AM, Don Hall wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 For my rv7 flying, I eventually want to get into light aero and  

 some formation.  It will be equipped for full IFR, but I generally  

 avoid IFR when I can - maybe using that privilege to bust through  

 some not-so-low overcast at one end or the other of a trip.  So the  

 question is what buttons do I want on the grip?



 So far:

 - trim

 - ptt

 - disc-ap?

 - flip-flop on com1?

 - flaps?

 - I've had one recommendation for starter (which makes me wonder  

 about a safety on such a switch)

 - I've had one recommendation to not put ident on the grip, which  

 is always nice for ifr



 The reason I'm asking is that I know what I'd want for IFR, but I'm  

 not into formation flying yet, so I don't know how that will change  

 my needs.

 Also, I'm thinking of putting no buttons on the co-pilot grip  

 because it might stay stowed as often as not.  Which begs the  

 question for a nice location for the co-pilot PTT.  I could just  

 put it in the panel, or maybe on the vertical face of that spar  

 cover.   Ideas?

 D

pwatsonfnp(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:28 am Post subject: get a grip

Hi Don,

 My RV7 is nearly done. I have a full IFR panel and both grips have exactly the same switches: PTT on the front, electric trim up and down, auto pilot disengage, and Comm1/Comm2. I have attached pictures of both sticks. My rational for wiring both was for a safety back up. Both sticks are wired independantly so if  I lost one side the other may still work as a back up. Down side is you cannot remove the passenger side stick but thats OK with me. 

 --

Paul Watson

 pwatsonfnp(at)comcast.net (pwatsonfnp(at)comcast.net)

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881 Time(s)

wlull(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: get a grip

Don,



On my Bonanza I have PTT, auto-pilot mode and disconnect.  I find I can get confused enought with this setup.  Seems like I have to hit the engage switch at least once prior to takeoff so it is on my check list to hit disengage prior to takeoff.



My 7 will have the same plus the top hat for trim.  I agree with having nothing on the right side for easy removal.  I will have a PTT on the right side of the panel.



Good luck!!



Bill

RV7A - RNM - Finish kit

---- Don Hall <dhall(at)donka.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 For my rv7 flying, I eventually want to get into light aero and some  

 formation.  It will be equipped for full IFR, but I generally avoid  

 IFR when I can - maybe using that privilege to bust through some not- 

 so-low overcast at one end or the other of a trip.  So the question  

 is what buttons do I want on the grip?

 

 So far:

 - trim

 - ptt

 - disc-ap?

 - flip-flop on com1?

 - flaps?

 - I've had one recommendation for starter (which makes me wonder  

 about a safety on such a switch)

 - I've had one recommendation to not put ident on the grip, which is  

 always nice for ifr

 

 The reason I'm asking is that I know what I'd want for IFR, but I'm  

 not into formation flying yet, so I don't know how that will change  

 my needs.

 

 

 Also, I'm thinking of putting no buttons on the co-pilot grip because  

 it might stay stowed as often as not.  Which begs the question for a  

 nice location for the co-pilot PTT.  I could just put it in the  

 panel, or maybe on the vertical face of that spar cover.   Ideas?

 

 

 D

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:57 am Post subject: get a grip

I took the opposite approach and made it such that the  stick was removable, i.e with the PX PTT on the panel....As I had a  small...cough!.. Incident with the PX coming out while my CFII had the airplane  inverted (I think thats an unusual attitude?) I bolted the stick in  place.

  

 I must say that on our first long cross country the PX  bolted in place was a bit of a pain, primarily cus my Wife likes to navigate  (works for me....) and ther clipboard kept interfering with the stick and she  and the autopilot had to wrestle it out a couple of times while I was  asleep...JK..

  

 So I am definatly going to get a removable pin of some sort  to allow the stick to come out.

  

 Frank 7a IFR



   From: owner-rv7-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul  Watson

Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 8:28 AM

To:  rv7-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: get a  grip

 

  Hi Don,

 My RV7 is nearly done. I have a full IFR panel and both grips have exactly  the same switches: PTT on the front, electric trim up and down, auto pilot  disengage, and Comm1/Comm2. I have attached pictures of both sticks. My rational  for wiring both was for a safety back up. Both sticks are wired independantly so  if  I lost one side the other may still work as a back up. Down side is you  cannot remove the passenger side stick but thats OK with me. 

 --

Paul Watson

 pwatsonfnp(at)comcast.net (pwatsonfnp(at)comcast.net)



  

  [quote][b]

jamie(at)jpainter.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: get a grip

One thing that I think is important in the whole stick wiring debate also is this...if you just wire trim on the pilot's stick (i.e. no trim on pax stick or on the panel), and you're using the Ray Allen grips you don't need to wire in relays -- relays that will eventually fail.  The grip switches can take the amps (only about 1 amp per servo IIRC).  This simplifies the stick wiring considerably.  I went with trim & PTT on both sticks and I'm not even flying yet but if I had to do it again I would take the approach of putting nothing on the pax stick and putting a PTT button on the panel in front of the passenger.  Easy, simple and no fooling around with wires if one wants to remove the pax stick. 



do not archive

Jamie



-- 

Jamie D. Painter

RV-7A N622JP

http://rv.jpainter.org  [quote][b]

Don Owens

Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 24
Location: North Central Washington

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: get a grip

Hi Paul,  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Thanks for the info and the photo.  I am wiring both stick grips also.  I have a bus-bar at the base of both sticks so I can disconnect the wires and remove the sticks if necessary.  I also bought some nifty little weather-proof connectors from Mouser that I think would work.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

I wish I could say that my RV-7 is “almost” done.  I think I’m at least a year away.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Thanks,  

Don Owens  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Hi Don,  

My RV7 is nearly done. I have a full IFR panel and both grips have exactly the same switches: PTT on the front, electric trim up and down, auto pilot disengage, and Comm1/Comm2. I have attached pictures of both sticks. My rational for wiring both was for a safety back up. Both sticks are wired independantly so if  I lost one side the other may still work as a back up. Down side is you cannot remove the passenger side stick but thats OK with me.     

--

 Paul Watson

    

pwatsonfnp(at)comcast.net (pwatsonfnp(at)comcast.net)  

   

       [quote][b]

david.nelson(at)pobox.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: get a grip

Hi Frank,



I remember reading about your incident.  Talk about remaining calm.



I recall somebody mentioning using Velcro to attach the PX stick by using some 

uber glue to attach the loops (or hooks) to the ends of each tube and then 

using a wide swath of hooks (or loops) to keep the two together.  This opens 

the opportunity insert/remove the stick during flights and to use self aligning 

contacts w/in the tubes so that switches can be on located on the PX stick - 

assuming all contacts are normally open, which I think they are.



Sounds like a good idea - any thoughts?



Regards,

 	 /\/elson

 	 RV-7A - Fuselage now a canoe

 	 Austin, TX



On Tue, 17 Apr 2007, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I took the opposite approach and made it such that the stick was

 removable, i.e with the PX PTT on the panel....As I had a

 small...cough!.. Incident with the PX coming out while my CFII had the

 airplane inverted (I think thats an unusual attitude?) I bolted the

 stick in place.



 I must say that on our first long cross country the PX bolted in place

 was a bit of a pain, primarily cus my Wife likes to navigate (works for

 me....) and ther clipboard kept interfering with the stick and she and

 the autopilot had to wrestle it out a couple of times while I was

 asleep...JK..



 So I am definatly going to get a removable pin of some sort to allow the

 stick to come out.



 Frank 7a IFR



 ________________________________



 From: owner-rv7-list-server(at)matronics.com

 [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Watson

 Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 8:28 AM

 To: rv7-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: get a grip

 Hi Don,

 My RV7 is nearly done. I have a full IFR panel and both grips have

 exactly the same switches: PTT on the front, electric trim up and down,

 auto pilot disengage, and Comm1/Comm2. I have attached pictures of both

 sticks. My rational for wiring both was for a safety back up. Both

 sticks are wired independantly so if  I lost one side the other may

 still work as a back up. Down side is you cannot remove the passenger

 side stick but thats OK with me.

 --

 Paul Watson

 pwatsonfnp(at)comcast.net


	


-- 

~~ ** ~~ Research has shown that Mondays account for 1/7th of your time ~~ ** ~~

yenduc(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: get a grip

The more expensive CH unit also does not require relays.

dave



On Apr 17, 2007, at 9:13 AM, Jamie Painter wrote:

[quote]One thing that I think is important in the whole stick wiring debate also is this...if you just wire trim on the pilot's stick (i.e. no trim on pax stick or on the panel), and you're using the Ray Allen grips you don't need to wire in relays -- relays that will eventually fail.  The grip switches can take the amps (only about 1 amp per servo IIRC).  This simplifies the stick wiring considerably.  I went with trim & PTT on both sticks and I'm not even flying yet but if I had to do it again I would take the approach of putting nothing on the pax stick and putting a PTT button on the panel in front of the passenger.  Easy, simple and no fooling around with wires if one wants to remove the pax stick. 



do not archive

Jamie



-- 

Jamie D. Painter

RV-7A N622JP

http://rv.jpainter.org  	  Quote: 	
		  

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV7-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV7-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com



	
[b]

dan(at)rvproject.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: get a grip

 	  Quote: 	
		   the fiddly wires that folks wire into their grips I decided to avoid all

 the wires that I could in the grip...So I just have one and have not

 found any desire to have more functions on the grip.


	


You must not fly formation very much...  



I'm very happy with my "fiddly" setup, especially in formation.



PTT (trigger)

coolie hat 2-axis trim (top left)

flaps (top right)

flip-flop (top fwd)



HOTAS.  Highly functional in formation (35+% of my flying).  Your mission 

may vary!  



)_( Dan

RV-7 N714D (1249 hours)

www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com

chrisdharris(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: get a grip

I have  a CH stick (and had wonderful service them after a relayed stick failed - not in  flight)

 I have  trim on the 'hat', PTT on the trigger, A/P disengage on the left top button and  TXP ident on the right.

 My  passenger PTT is on the right side of the panel, alongside emergency plug ins  for direct tp radio headset.

  

 Chris  Harris

 RV-7  Flying 10hrs.

 (Still  making controlled crash landings - no t/d time)

  	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronicsnbsp;              available via    href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

_-===================================

interior_etc_Feb_2007_003.jpg

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Viewed:

899 Time(s)

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: get a grip

Hey Nelson,



Oh, it was more amusing than anything else..Having a MUCH more

experience pilot in the other seat also provides a calming influence..



You know I hadn't thought of using velcro to hold the stick in...Hmm, I

guess I can't see any reason why not, In fact I wonder if one could use

a strip of velcro to hold a pin in place, i.e remove the bolt, sharpen

the threaded end, replace and have a strip of velcro that goes over the

head of the bolt therby holding it into the hole?



I think (purely personally) I would still keep the wiring out of the

stick, my CFI seemed quite happy to use the panel mounted PTT when he

had to explain to ATC that his IFR student had screwed up again!...He

got to use the PTT way more than a PX ever would! I think having

connections in the stick is really asking for intermittent connection

faults and I really can't see the need for a PX stick PTT except for the

"cool" factor.



Cheers



Frank



--

rikvincent(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:17 am Post subject: get a grip

why not put drill a hole in the bolt and just pin it

    

  

 --

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: get a grip

I guess I'm not sure what to pin it with that will enable easy  removal and be SURE it won't pop off/jam the control...

  

 Your thoughts?



   From: owner-rv7-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv7-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  rikvincent(at)aol.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:16  PM

To: rv7-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: get a  grip

 

 why not put drill a hole in the bolt and just pin it

  

 

--

Ted French

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 54
Location: Kelowna BC Canada

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: get a grip

Take a look at the  pictures at the bottom of this page. http://www3.telus.net/elfrench/rv6%20no4.html

  

 This method does not  require a removeable pin or bolt, is always ready to go, and is secure. Have  never had a problem with it.

  

 Ted

  

Do Not Archive  

Ted French C-FXCS 

RV-10   flying 

 --

_________________
Ted French
RV-10 fuselage

lamar(at)takeflighttexas.
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: get a grip

Don,

  Since everyone else is weighing in on the subject, i figure i might as 

well throw my two cents in.  I posted something similar on the VAF forums 

several months ago and somebody wanted to debate with me about my opinion. 

I appreciate everyone's views but i like how i have my grips and here is 

why.



I am using the CH grips with ptt, com flip, 2 axis trim, auto pilot engage / 

disengage. this is going to be on both sides and yes, the copilot stick will 

be able to be taken out using a simple connector in the stick for all the 

wires. (this is not a new idea, i saw  this somewhere else, just dont 

remember where)

I went with the CH grips for several reasons.

1) they have the china hat switch as opposed to the buttons on the RA grip

2) they are pre wired!!  I have seen  two planes built with the RA grips and 

the biggest complaint i have heard is wiring the suckers

3) the ch grips sit at an angle which to me is more comfortable in my 

opinion.

4) if you get the RA grip with all the buttons like the CH grips, the CH 

grips ARE LESS EXPENSIVE!!!  at least the price on vans site compared to 

what i paid.

5) they are a hard plastic which will hold up to heavy use.  the big thing i 

do not like about the RA grips is the foam breaks down and gets on your 

hands and all over the place,also. after awhile they get hard because they 

collect all the junk you have on your hands.  Im not a germa-phobe but i do 

like the clean feel of the solid plastic as oposed to the foam.

6) i am putting the grips on both sides because i like to fly from both sets 

depending on my mood.  I am also planning on doing transition training in 

the plane and i hate not having trim and ptt while im teaching.



I did place the flap switch next to the throttle so it is accessable from 

both seats.  that is the only thing im not comfortable having in the grip. 

I have accidently hit a flap switch while in IMC, luckly i realized what 

happened and pushed the nose down. It scared me pretty good, so no flaps in 

the grip.



These are my opinions so take what you like and leave what dont.

Lamar

RV7A - heading out to the garage to finish the puppy!!

---

PeterHunt1(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: get a grip

Don,

  

 I have full IFR with infinity grips in my RV-6.  Both the pilot and  copilot switches are wired the same with a toggle switch on the floor  between the seats which disconnects the ground on the copilots switches and  so makes them inoperable (pilot switches always active).  The toggle  switch has a "lift to switch" feature so it doesn't accidentally get  moved (the stem of the toggle must be pulled to switch it over).  For the  copilot I put a second PTT button on the far right of my panel along with a  micro switch which engages either the stick PTT or the panel button PTT.

  

 Both grips have the following:

  

 PTT

 coolie hat up - com flip flop

 coolie hat down - transponder ident

 starter (wired through a relay with a safety switch on the panel) - allows  starting while holding grip back

 Auto pilot switch (switches auto pilot on and off)

 Altitude engage/disengage

 Auto pilot disengage

  

 I believe you can put too much on the grip which detracts from safe  flying.  Manual aileron and elevator trims are more sensitive, so I did not  go with electric trim.  Look me up at Sun n' Fun if you attend as I think  my grip and panel layout is the best I have seen in an RV (N216PH, 2006 Sun 'n  Fun RESERVE GRAND CHAMPION).

  

 Pete in Clearwater

 RV-6, two tone metallic teal on white



See what's free at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

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