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which weld

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Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: which weld

I am ready to weld  a new tail on my KF 2, splice all 4 longerons and

smaller cross braces together. I was intending to get it mig welded with

ers80-d2 wire but now a few second thoughts. I am now concerned about

brittleness from the concentrated heating. Anyone have any

opinions/experiences with welding this 4130 thin tube? I am leaning more

toward gas acetylene and not sure which filler to use. I welcome all input

Thanks Mark

roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: which weld

Oxy- acetaline helps avoid brittlenes, and your local welding shop should 

have the right filler rod for 4130.   So I've heard.  I welded my motor 

mount mig and will relieve it with a torch.  Ron NB Ore

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.com

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: Kitfox-List(at)matronics.com

Subject: which weld

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 07:29:24 -0600






I am ready to weld  a new tail on my KF 2, splice all 4 longerons and

smaller cross braces together. I was intending to get it mig welded with

ers80-d2 wire but now a few second thoughts. I am now concerned about

brittleness from the concentrated heating. Anyone have any

opinions/experiences with welding this 4130 thin tube? I am leaning more

toward gas acetylene and not sure which filler to use. I welcome all input

Thanks Mark

Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: which weld

Am I right to suppose you would not be too opposed to using mig on the

longeron tubes if you welded your motor mounts mig? I have a friend that is

a very good mig welder and that is the easiest road for me to get the job

done, but the brittleness thing has me concerned. Some say that I could do

as you said and normalize the weld with a torch and wrap the tubes with

fireblanket to slow the cooling afterward. Does this sound right, and

thanks for your feedback. Mark

colind

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: which weld

Mark,



I have recently been investigating welding techniques, more out of

interest than need, especially with regard to welding airframes. (Possible

future project).



I came across a gas welding kit which uses oxy-acetylene, but does so in a

unique way, so as to minimise stress and brittleness, etc.  The kit is

called the DHC 2000. I don't know who the original manufacturer is, but

suppose that it is actually a US based company.  The address that I have

for the distributor in Australia is: www.amweld.com.au. There are a number

of explanatory video clips available at that site. The only US address I

have is: www.fournierenterprises.com . Have a look at this as it may be of

some help to you in deciding what method to use.



Regards



Colin Durey

Sydney

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Am I right to suppose you would not be too opposed to using mig on the

 longeron tubes if you welded your motor mounts mig? I have a friend that

 is

 a very good mig welder and that is the easiest road for me to get the job

 done, but the brittleness thing has me concerned. Some say that I could do

 as you said and normalize the weld with a torch and wrap the tubes with

 fireblanket to slow the cooling afterward. Does this sound right, and

 thanks for your feedback. Mark








	




Regards



Colin Durey

Pacific Technology Corporation Ltd

+61-418-677073 (M)

+61-2-945466162 (F)

_________________
Colin Durey
Sydney
+61-418-677073

roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: which weld

Mark there are many schools of thought.  Most agree that a torch is the 

easiest to get good results.  Tig is the next choice, but a good mig will 

suffice.  I don't have a tig hooked up and use propagne / oxy or plasma for 

cutting. Ron NB Ore

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.com

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: which weld

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:58:26 -0600




Am I right to suppose you would not be too opposed to using mig on the

longeron tubes if you welded your motor mounts mig? I have a friend that is

a very good mig welder and that is the easiest road for me to get the job

done, but the brittleness thing has me concerned. Some say that I could do

as you said and normalize the weld with a torch and wrap the tubes with

fireblanket to slow the cooling afterward. Does this sound right, and

thanks for your feedback. Mark

kitfox91je(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: which weld

Hello.  I wanted to put a quick note on here about welding.  There is a 

really nice book out at Barnes and Noble and others titled "Monster Garage- 

how to weld damn near anything"  It talks about performance welding in 

aircraft adn racecars and dispels many old myths that are handed down 

without basis in fact.  It covers MIG TIG and Oxy-acetlyn welding..and gives 

the benefits and drawbacks to each.  It also gives a really nice overview of 

troubleshooting where most get into trouble and how to prepare the welding 

rig and the metal.  Its not a comlete guide to welding, but a good first 

read.



Dan

Kitfox went home to Idaho...working on a Stearman.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Colin Durey" <colin(at)ptclhk.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: which weld

Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:52:56 +1100 (EST)






Mark,



I have recently been investigating welding techniques, more out of

interest than need, especially with regard to welding airframes. (Possible

future project).



I came across a gas welding kit which uses oxy-acetylene, but does so in a

unique way, so as to minimise stress and brittleness, etc.  The kit is

called the DHC 2000. I don't know who the original manufacturer is, but

suppose that it is actually a US based company.  The address that I have

for the distributor in Australia is: www.amweld.com.au. There are a number

of explanatory video clips available at that site. The only US address I

have is: www.fournierenterprises.com . Have a look at this as it may be of

some help to you in deciding what method to use.



Regards



Colin Durey

Sydney

 > 

 >

 >

 > Am I right to suppose you would not be too opposed to using mig on the

 > longeron tubes if you welded your motor mounts mig? I have a friend that

 > is

 > a very good mig welder and that is the easiest road for me to get the 

job

 > done, but the brittleness thing has me concerned. Some say that I could 

do

 > as you said and normalize the weld with a torch and wrap the tubes with

 > fireblanket to slow the cooling afterward. Does this sound right, and

 > thanks for your feedback. Mark

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

Regards



Colin Durey

Pacific Technology Corporation Ltd

+61-418-677073 (M)

+61-2-945466162 (F)






	


http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

ddsyverson(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: which weld

Mark,



There are a lot of books about the subject of welding and lots of opinions as 

to the preferred method. 



If a person has MIG equipment available and someone with the skill to use it, 

it works great. Ditto for Oxy.



I happen to be a bit low tech on this since I use an oxycetylene torch for 

just about everything. The big deal with oxycetylene welding is that you can 

do just about anything you need to with a few changes of tips for your welder 

- it is a very adaptable. 



I won't try to give welding lessons over the e-mail, but I  will offer a few 

bits of advice. 



1) MIG or Oxy - in both cases you need to be real sure that the weld has 

adequate penetration and no slag incorporated in the weld - I would use 

whatever system you have available - they are both good and the most 

important issues is the ability of the welder.



2) If Oxy - a) you will have a little more heat involved - do some practice on 

scrap pieces of the same thickness and experiment with tip size/gas pressure 

to avoid burn throughs when doing it for real. b) Use 4130 rods - I use 1/16" 

for aircraft tubing - they run about $5-$8 per pound. c) After welding the 

parts up - normalize the weld area and do what you can to slow the cool rate.



On my model 7, I had to do some repair work due to manufacturing defects in 

the fuselage weldment; and, did a reverse engineering thing on the front trim 

bracket since one was not supplied with my kit at the time of the bankruptcy. 

Also - once everything is done, go ahead and try to break it with a 

reasonable force - if it doesn't hold - you want to know that before you are 

in the air. I am always amazed at how strong 4130 weldments are. Both 

projects survived the torture.



Sincerely,



Dave

St Paul



Do Not Archive

On Monday 06 February 2006 7:29 am, Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am ready to weld  a new tail on my KF 2, splice all 4 longerons and

 smaller cross braces together. I was intending to get it mig welded with

 ers80-d2 wire but now a few secon

joakley(at)ida.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: which weld

I know we want the best welds, but... the factory used mig on all of our

planes, I havn't seen a problem with that in 20 years now... humm... 22

years.

john Oakley

over a thousand hours in fox's now.. and not nearly enough.

Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: which weld

I sure appreciate everyone's comments and opinions, I believe I will let my

friend give the mig a try on some extra .035   1/2" tube pieces to get a

feel and if he says go , we go. I have heard or read that 100% argon

sheilding gas is recommended over the argon co2 mix. I hate to keep asking

questions butttt. Thanks again Mark

fultz(at)trip.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: which weld

Colin, Mark and the rest of the gang,



  If you do any amount of gas/oxy welding and you purchase and DHC 2000

(formerly Henrob 2000, formerly Dillon)you will not be sorry.  I found one

in the fly market at OSH used and snatched it up.  One af the best purchases

I have ever made.



Andy F.

roncarolnikko(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: which weld

Anything is better than co2,  but even that will work.  I use Argon and 

steel mix mainly for stainless. Go for it and test your welds.   Ron NB Or

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.com

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: which weld

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:59:25 -0600

I sure appreciate everyone's comments and opinions, I believe I will let my

friend give the mig a try on some extra .035   1/2" tube pieces to get a

feel and if he says go , we go. I have heard or read that 100% argon

sheilding gas is recommended over the argon co2 mix. I hate to keep asking

questions butttt. Thanks again Mark

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: which weld

Just a side not of interest.  When my friend was

welding up his 2/3rds scale Jenny, he changed from gas

to electric welding for some parts near the end.



Building his plane was a chance for him to learn more

and practice his welding, but he got caught by a

routine.  When he tried to do his first electric

parts, he couldn't get the arc to stay put on the

weld.  He closed the window and turned off the fan. 

Fussed with current and tips.



Then it hit him.  He was using a magnetic parts tray

to hold the parts.  OK for gas, but a pain with

electric.    Sometimes it is the little things.....



Kurt S.

Graeme Toft

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 123

Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: which weld

Talking of magnetics also Kurt electric welding will, as many of us have 

found, introduce a magnetic field into the airframe that can be hard to get 

rid of. Some may remember the problem I had with my model 1 when I attempted 

to install a compass and got a 15degree swing. I had to degause the airframe 

before the compass could be acurrately swung. Just my 2 bobs worth.



Graeme

---

shoeless(at)barefootpilot
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: which weld

Numerous Kitfoxes have had broken welds on motor mounts, rudder pedals and 

landing gear.

Many of these can be found in the archives and many more have gone 

unreported. I don't know all that much about welding, but I wouldn't use mig 

in critical high stress areas based upon the failures that I know about.

Cliff



I know we want the best welds, but... the factory used mig on all of our

planes, I havn't seen a problem with that in 20 years now... humm... 22

years.

john Oakley

over a thousand hours in fox's now.. and not nearly enough.

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: which weld

Mark,

I repaired the aft section of my Model 5 fuselage using mig, I contacted the 

factory and asked what wire they were using and bought the exact wire. I 

copped all joints / clusters for a tight fit, I used straight burrs of 

various sizes in my drill press with a block of wood clamped on the table as 

a steady rest (crude but effective). I then emery papered and de-burred the 

ends before assembly. Before welding I pre-heated the joints. I would always 

cut the end of my wire before starting my weld so the bead that was left 

from the last weld was gone. After all was welded I used a heavy black sand 

(can't remember the name) to sand blast all the tubing and especially the 

weld joints (has some stress relieving attributes) before priming and 

painting. I am very happy with the results. One last thing,  I used our 

local EAA Chapter tech counselor as a resource, he is an A&P and an 

inspector so he checked my work along the way, made sure I didn't do 

something dumb. And yes, practice is good. What I found was as I built 

clusters they required more attention to pre-heat and weld technique as the 

mass would tend to weld cold if you did not direct your arc heat there as 

opposed to the tube you were adding to the cluster, hope that makes sense to 

you.

Good luck, and have fun!!

Lloyd

---

Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:20 am Post subject: which weld

That is good info, I don't have any clusters to make I bought the aft 5 ft.

of a kf 4 and will inner splice the longerons and outer splice the 3/8"

cross braces between the two rear clusters. So you didn't post heat the

welds at all? I had planned to preheat the weld area just too hot to touch

and maybe post heat about the same and wrap with fireblanket to slow cool.

I bet you don't remember the wire type and which gas you used do you?

Thanks Mark

AMuller589(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: which weld

Your questions lead me to believe you need to look at the welding  techniques 

and methods of splicing specified in aircraft circular AC 65-15A.  This is 

the AIRFRAME AND POWERPLANT MECHANICS AIRFRAME HANDBOOK, esp pages 276,  and 

figures 6-38, 6-39, 6-40, 6-41 et al for spice joints and pages 269 plus for  

welding techniques. There have also been several articles on the advantages and  

annealing techniques for the TIG, MIG, and gas welding of aircraft tubing in  

Sport Aviation and Kitplanes.. Basically what these said AS I RECALL Generally 

 they recommend post weld annealing with gas for welds made using gas and TIG 

 since the heat is less concentrated than MIG. Even the articles in Kitplane 

and  Sport Aviation have some arguments pro and con on the annealing process 

so  I would anneal with gas if it were me. According to AC-65 you should use  

internal splicing if you need to avoid bulges where surface smoothness is a  

factor (i.e. under fabric).AC 65-15 and  Kitplane and Sport Aviation  address 

all welding techniques.  WORD OF MOUTH has it that NASA  recently adapted a 

welding policy that requires "coat hangar" type welding rod  with more generous 

beads than before for aircraft and spacecraft tubing,  and post weld annealing. 

Annealing is much higher temperatures than you seem to  think. Stress relief 

as quoted from the LINCOLN welding manual is"The stress  relief range for most 

carbon steel is 1100 to 1200 deg F and the soaking time is  usually one hour 

per inch of thickness.",  These are not difficult  procedures and are probably 

what you intended but should relieve your mind of  all doubts. Splicing Tubing 

by Inner Sleeve Method should be used

If the  damage to a structural tube is such that a

partial replacement of the tube is  necessary, the

inner sleeve splice shown in figure 6-41 is  recommended,

especially where a smooth tube surface is

desired. A diagonal  cut is made to remove the damaged

portion of the tube, and the burrs are  removed

from the edges of the cut by filing or similar means.

A  replacement steel tube of the same material and

diameter, and at least the  same wall thickness is

then cut to match the length of the removed  portion

of the damaged tube. At each end of the replace.

ment tube a  l/s-in. gap should be allowed from the

diagonal cuts to the stubs of the  original tube.

A length of steel tubing should next be selecteddiameter equal  to the inside 

diameter of the damaged

tube. This inner tube material should  be fitted

snugly within the original tube. Cut two sections of

tubing from  this inner-sleeve tube material, each of

such a length that the ends of the  inner sleeve will

be a minimum distance of one and one-half tube

diameters  from the near-t end of the diagonal cut.

If the inner sleeve fits very  tightly in the replacement

tube, the sleeve can be chilled with dry ice  or

in cold water. If this procedure is inadequate, the

diameter of the  sleeve can be polished down with

emery cloth. The inner sleeve can be welded  to the

tube stubs through the +&in. gap, forming a weld

bead over the  gap.

 

 

 

 



of at least  the same wall thickness and of an outside

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