Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

GPS failure
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: GPS failure

Hi All,



   On my previous oration about the vitues of VOR's and GPS's, I mentioned I 

had a GPS failure that "skeered" me a little.

   To clarify things, it wasn't an electrical problem or anything like that, 

that caused the outage.

It was tubulence!!  A GPS's antenna cannot "hone" in on the required 

satelites if it is being shaken all over the place.

   While I was flying over the N California/Oregon moutains I came across 

some significant turbulence, but coverage was restored when the air settled 

down.  I was on a long x/country flight and was at 8500' msl.   I just kept 

pointing at a snow capped peak, that was off in the distance (150 miles 

away), that I was pointing at before I lost coverage.   After a few minutes, 

things went back to normal.

                                                Mike Welch



_________________________________________________________________

Don’t quit your job – Take Classes Online and Earn your Degree in 1 year. 

Start Today! 

http://www.classesusa.com/clickcount.cfm?id=866146&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classesusa.com%2Ffeaturedschools%2Fonlinedegreesmp%2Fform-dyn1.html%3Fsplovr%3D866144

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: GPS failure

| It was tubulence!!  A GPS's antenna cannot "hone" in on the required

| satelites if it is being shaken all over the place.

 |                                                Mike Welch



Mike:



I've experienced a little turbulence over the years, flying with the 

GPS, but never lost coverage because of turbulence.  I believe as long 

as the antenna can see the satellites, it will receive, no matter how 

quickly the antenna is changing location.



However, there are certain areas in CONUS and Canada that are blanked 

out to GPS, and the GPS will come up with "Coverage Lost".  I would 

never have figured this out had it not happened a few years ago when 

my Kolb friends and I were flying to the Outter Banks, NC.  An area SW 

of Trenton, SC, is where I lost coverage.  Took 30 minutes or an hour 

to get it back.  I had experienced similar loss of coverage in Canada, 

so I figured it was my unit or antenna that was causing this loss. 

When we made our next landing, John W indicated he had also lost 

coverage in the same area.  Chances of two GPS units losing coverage 

in the same area at the same time, then recovering about the same time 

are pretty slim.



BTW:  Where was your GPS antenna mounted in/on the aircraft?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: GPS failure

John,

   My favorite toy in the whole world, my Garmin 95XL was attached to my 

yoke with the bracket, and the antenna was suction cupped at the center top 

of the windshield.

   If it wasn't turbulence that caused my outage, then that would be even 

worse.  It is the boonies where you would want the best protection, not 

flying over fairly populated areas you can identify by looking them.         

    Makes my point even more.   VOR's are still a good resourse for your 

piloting skills.                             Mike Welch

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: GPS failure

Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:36:53 -0500




| It was tubulence!!  A GPS's antenna cannot "hone" in on the required

| satelites if it is being shaken all over the place.

  |                                                Mike Welch



Mike:



I've experienced a little turbulence over the years, flying with the

GPS, but never lost coverage because of turbulence.  I believe as long

as the antenna can see the satellites, it will receive, no matter how

quickly the antenna is changing location.



However, there are certain areas in CONUS and Canada that are blanked

out to GPS, and the GPS will come up with "Coverage Lost".  I would

never have figured this out had it not happened a few years ago when

my Kolb friends and I were flying to the Outter Banks, NC.  An area SW

of Trenton, SC, is where I lost coverage.  Took 30 minutes or an hour

to get it back.  I had experienced similar loss of coverage in Canada,

so I figured it was my unit or antenna that was causing this loss.

When we made our next landing, John W indicated he had also lost

coverage in the same area.  Chances of two GPS units losing coverage

in the same area at the same time, then recovering about the same time

are pretty slim.



BTW:  Where was your GPS antenna mounted in/on the aircraft?



john h

mkIII


	


_________________________________________________________________

Mortgage rates near historic lows. Refinance $200,000 loan for as low as 

$771/month* 

https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f8&disc=y&vers=689&s=4056&p=5117

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: GPS failure

|    Makes my point even more.   VOR's are still a good resourse for 

your

| piloting skills.                             Mike Welch

Mike:



I would rather rely on mag compass and sectional as backup to the GPS.



Doesn't matter whether you are over the woods or not.  Out in the 

boodocks there are usually rather prominent terrain features that are 

easily identifiable, especially Northern California.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: GPS failure

John and others,



   I greatly agree with you regarding a sectional and compass (and watch).  

These items should be the first tools of navigation a good pilot should 

reach for.

   I guess the main point is; there are several methods of navigating today 

and a good pilot would never want to rely on only one.

   The early days of mail service had the airmail pilot using only a 

compass, watch and chart.  They were able to navigate beyond our 

imigination, in conditions that would seem impossible.  And they did all 

this long before the days of radar, VOR's, GPS's and a cell phone in every 

pocket!  They guys are the early heros of our hobby, and oh, how I would 

love to sit and listen to some of their "war stories"

   We are pilots, guys.  We come from good stock!!                   Mike



_________________________________________________________________

Download Messenger. Join the i’m Initiative. Help make a difference today. 

http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:32 pm Post subject: GPS failure

About 16 miles southwest of here is Fodderstack Mountain. Atop the mountain 

is the remains of a Lighted Airways beacon. It dates back to the days when 

beacons were placed along mail routes, and the mail pilots flew at night 

from one beacon to the next. They would marvel at our GPS units.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



do not archive

---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: GPS failure

Kolbers,



When China blew up one of their satellites during target practice, it put 

out a lot of high speed space junk.  What if it knocks out a couple of gps 

satellites?  How many gps satellites have to be destroyed to bring down the 

system? 



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: GPS failure

Back to Air Mail days; saucer of coffee for Art. Hoz.  plus the  

famous Cat and Duck Blind Flying Equipment.



regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/



do not archive

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: GPS failure

Jack

I've been told there are 27 GPS satellites in orbit, 24 in use at any  

one time . Possibly someone else has more definitive info here. Each  

one has FOUR atomic  clocks in it -- hence they cost so many billions  

of $$. We have the military to thank. GA user-fees would be a long  

time coming up with that much cash!

I doubt the Chinese shrapnel came anywhere near the GPS sat's.

Incidentally, I knew that GPS's won't "see" through heavy green  

leaves -- but I found out to my dismay that they won't penetrate  

heavy snow either.

Russ Kinne



On Apr 29, 2007, at 5:53 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>



 Kolbers,



 When China blew up one of their satellites during target practice,  

 it put

 out a lot of high speed space junk.  What if it knocks out a couple  

 of gps

 satellites?  How many gps satellites have to be destroyed to bring  

 down the

 system?



 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: GPS failure

At 11:10 AM 4/29/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



   Hi All,



   On my previous oration about the vitues of VOR's and GPS's, I 

 mentioned I had a GPS failure that "skeered" me a little.


	


My class was the first allowed to use "a calculator" at Ga. Tech.

The old guys would tell us to keep our slide rules handy just in

case that new finagled contraption quite on us.

So ....glad I didn't have to use a slide rule.

I just keep an extra (cheap) GPS for backup

by the time I could figure the VOR I was already

in the next county anyway.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: GPS failure

|   The early days of mail service had the airmail pilot using only a

| compass, watch and chart.  They were able to navigate beyond our

| imigination, in conditions that would seem impossible. 

Mike

Mike:



There are a couple Army helicopter pilots on the Kolb List that 

learned to navigate in the air, as late as 1968, with compass, map, 

and time.  In fact, that was our primary means of nav in VN in 1969 

and 70.  From 1973 until my last flight in 1976, I flew for minimums 

in UH-1, OH-58 types of helicopters.



I still flew pilotage and ded reckoning until the summer of 1993, when 

I purchased my first GPS.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: GPS failure

| About 16 miles southwest of here is Fodderstack Mountain. Atop the 

mountain

| is the remains of a Lighted Airways beacon.  | Richard Pike



Richard:



Had the same system in place between Maxwell AFB, AL, and Mobile, so 

the student pilots could find their way home, prior to and during 

WWII.



john h

mkIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: GPS failure

.

| Incidentally, I knew that GPS's won't "see" through heavy green

| leaves -- but I found out to my dismay that they won't penetrate

| heavy snow either.

| Russ Kinne

Russ:



Depends on the system.  Some will and some won't.  We had a cheap 

Etrex localize inside the kitchen.  Outside, my 196 will barely obtain 

coverage because of the trees.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: GPS failure

There are a couple Army helicopter pilots on the Kolb List that 

learned to navigate in the air, as late as 1968, with compass, map, 

and time.  In fact, that was our primary means of nav in VN in 1969 

and 70. 

 From 1973 until my last flight in 1976, I flew for minimums 

in UH-1, OH-58 types of helicopters.



The previous sentence should have included: 



"  From 1973 until my last flight in 1976, I flew for minimums 

in UH-1, OH-58 types of helicopters."



20,000 xin loi's,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: GPS failure

| From 1973 until my last flight in 1976, I flew for minimums

| in UH-1, OH-58 types of helicopters.

|

Hi Gang:



The third try is going to be a charm.  Sentence, above, should have 

included "pilotage and DED reckoning."



100,000 xin loi's,



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: GPS failure

At 07:39 PM 4/29/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



  | From 1973 until my last flight in 1976, I flew for minimums

| in UH-1, OH-58 types of helicopters.

|Hi Gang:

The third try is going to be a charm.  Sentence, above, should have

included "pilotage and DED reckoning."

100,000 xin loi's,

john h


	


Braggin rights.

I was tryin to keep my arse in college an otta nam.

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: GPS failure

John

Glad your Etrex worked OK in the kitchen -- but watch out for those  

Alabama blizzards!



On Apr 29, 2007, at 7:04 PM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

  .

 | Incidentally, I knew that GPS's won't "see" through heavy green

 | leaves -- but I found out to my dismay that they won't penetrate

 | heavy snow either.

 | Russ Kinne

 Russ:



 Depends on the system.  Some will and some won't.  We had a cheap

 Etrex localize inside the kitchen.  Outside, my 196 will barely obtain

 coverage because of the trees.



 john h

 mkIII

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: GPS failure

John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

  .

 | Incidentally, I knew that GPS's won't "see" through heavy green

 | leaves -- but I found out to my dismay that they won't penetrate

 | heavy snow either.

 | Russ Kinne

 

 

 Russ:

 

 Depends on the system.  Some will and some won't.  We had a cheap 

 Etrex localize inside the kitchen.  Outside, my 196 will barely obtain 

 coverage because of the trees.

 

 john h

 mkIII

And my neighbor's GRT EFIS will lock on inside his build-shop with a 
	


shingle roof & only a couple of very small windows.



Charlie

(I was surprised, too.)

icrashrc

Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: GPS failure

Mike, it might betime for an upgrade!

I've seen my Garmin iQue 3600 keep a steady lock (at) over 700 mph ground speed. I doubt turbulence alone would make it lose track of where it was. 

 	  mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co wrote: 	
		  Hi All,



   On my previous oration about the vitues of VOR's and GPS's, I mentioned I 

had a GPS failure that "skeered" me a little.

   To clarify things, it wasn't an electrical problem or anything like that, 

that caused the outage.

It was tubulence!!  A GPS's antenna cannot "hone" in on the required 

satelites if it is being shaken all over the place.

   While I was flying over the N California/Oregon moutains I came across 

some significant turbulence, but coverage was restored when the air settled 

down.  I was on a long x/country flight and was at 8500' msl.   I just kept 

pointing at a snow capped peak, that was off in the distance (150 miles 

away), that I was pointing at before I lost coverage.   After a few minutes, 

things went back to normal.

                                                Mike Welch



_________________________________________________________________

Don?t quit your job ? Take Classes Online and Earn your Degree in 1 year. 

Start Today! 

http://www.classesusa.com/clickcount.cfm?id=866146&goto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classesusa.com%2Ffeaturedschools%2Fonlinedegreesmp%2Fform-dyn1.html%3Fsplovr%3D866144

_________________
Scott

www.ill-EagleAviation.com

do not archive

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject: GPS failure

John/Mike/All,



        Pretty rare nowadays to see any kind of significant outage in any 

part of the U.S. due purely to lack of coverage.  Occasionally, there are 

system-wide disruptions due to the satellites' being purposely 'skewed' for 

reasons known only to the 'skewer' (U.S. Gov't).  One example bandied about 

is during high 'threat' levels, so the sats can't be used against us.



        I haven't seen any interruptions in the last 3-4 years, heavily 

using the system during that time.



        Anyone following the (supposed) demise of LORAN will see why the VOR 

system will be with us for many, many years.  One major US airline up until 

just a few years ago was still ordering its new Boeings with dual VOR's. 

This despite everyone else having EFIS, FMS, GPS, INS, et al.



        Have been using a Garmin 496 with XM weather lately.  Highly 

recommend it.



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

---

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum