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Fuel pump failure

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john_graham

Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 45
Location: Algonquin, IL

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: Fuel pump failure

If the engine driven fuel pump fails in flight, I have

heard one can pump the primer lever rapidly to keep

enough fuel going to the engine to keep it running

long enough to land the plane.  Is this true?  Also,

would one pump the handle after turning it to the left

(fuel pressure) or right (fuel primer)?

As always, thanks for your answers as I continue to

learn about my Yak 52.



Thanks,



John P. Graham

CubFlyer1940(at)Yahoo.com

Cell phone  (847) 641-1330

       

http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting

_________________
John Graham
N15YK 1993 Yak-52
CubFlyer1940@Yahoo.com
(847) 641-1330

Scooter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 155

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Fuel pump failure

You might want to get hold of one (or more) of the "flight manuals" floating around on the net.  The version I have has the following:



Low fuel pressure

              

Turn the mechanical fuel pump 45 left and pump to provide fuel pressure then land as soon as possible.

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: Fuel pump failure

The obvious side is to pump intp the  carburetor and you can keep the engine going indefinitely-or at least until your  hand is totally lacerated!!

 Not so well known is that you can keep the  engine going by priming on the "cylinder" side if the carburetor or the fuel  supply to the carburetor has failed.However it has to be done very carefully to  avoid either drowning or starving the engine!

 Richard

  

 Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5  3LW

United Kingdom

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544  340129

www.russianaeros.com



 [quote]   ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: Fuel pump failure

Yes, Scooter is correct PROVIDED it is LOW fuel pressure.  Low fuel pressure 

means the fuel pump is working somewhat.  NO fuel pressure means you pump 

like heck with the pump to the right because that is the direction that 

pumps fuel into the supercharger and ultimately into the intake tubes and 

cylinders.

Dennis



---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Fuel pump failure

You guys really think you are going to keep the fire lit pumping like crazy

and be able to land. Which is the primer handle is turned to the right when

you have ZERO fuel pressure for the 52 that is. The 50 is to the left for

cylinder priming. With a totally dead fuel pump pressurizing the system is

not going to get you anything but a cough. 

I have been down that road on the ground now add flying the airplane with

your left hand and pumping like crazy with the right! Just hope some

passerby does not get the wrong idea as that plane bobs up and down like a

cork! The poor chase ( if there is one) is going to be one sea sick dude not

to say what you are going to look like coming down final! Guess there is a

positive though, you are coming down final. 

Like I said I did that once on the ground when the fuel pump we rebuilt was

reassembled with the rotor in 180 out (yes you can do that). 0 fuel

pressure. She started and I pumped like "crazy" to keep her going to the

tune of about a stroke every 2-3 seconds which is about as fast as you can

pull the plunger out and push it in. Not really sure how long I could have

keep that up. She will run about 2 seconds before she starts to wind down.

That was at idle! Wonder how fast you have to pump at 70% and 400 mmHg for

holding the glide slope on final? I do not know. 

The question is, is it worth crashing an airplane on final or bailing out at

2500 or so feet?

If it happened to me and I was not in gliding distance (for the 52 that is

pretty darned short), I'm taking the silk let down personally!

Sorry Tom or Cannon, you'll have to buy me a new one if that happens.

Just my useless 2 c.

Doc

--

craig(at)ustek.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: Fuel pump failure

I have an electric boost pump. 28V facet mounted on the firewall, in

fuel line before the engine driven fuel pump.  Cheap investment  Model

40164  $42.60 at Aircraft Spruce



Don't fly without one! 



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: Fuel pump failure

That is a GREAT IDEA that I had not thought of! Not that I have any corner

on bright ideas. I don't! Especially since I ops tested the yes you can

reassemble the fuel pump backwards!

Thanks.

Doc



--

Rob Rowe

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel pump failure

FWIW - the 740400 fuel primer capacity is only 8 cc ... so if we assume 45ish litres/hr as a minimum fuel burn for straight & level at c.190kmh ... then you're going to have to pump the system primer nearly 100 times a minute to cover a zero pressure situation!



So at best you might just augment a low fuel pressure problem by system priming ... just keep that bionic arm handy  



Rob R.

jimscjs(at)mbay.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: Fuel pump failure

Frank Put one in his Plane also, good Idea, just more Items.

Jim

---

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: Fuel pump failure

On Oct 11, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The question is, is it worth crashing an airplane on final or  

 bailing out at

 2500 or so feet?


	


Pump to get yourself into the pattern and in position to make the  

runway dead-stick. Quit pumping and dead-stick the airplane onto the  

runway safely. You can do a power-off landing of the airplane, can't  

you?

 	  Quote: 	
		   If it happened to me and I was not in gliding distance (for the 52  

 that is

 pretty darned short), I'm taking the silk let down personally!

 Sorry Tom or Cannon, you'll have to buy me a new one if that happens.


	


So you wouldn't even try to keep the engine going? I know I would. If  

I couldn't THEN I would make a forced landing (good landing spot) or  

bail out (no good landing spot).



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

cliff(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: Fuel pump failure

All of the 52TW's have an electric boost pump installed in parallel with 

the "system" side of the primer.

I'd recommend using a 40194 pump-  It has both a check valve and an 

anti-siphon valve.

This will prevent any "loopback" through the electric pump.



'spruce sells the 40194 (although they don't always show it in their 

catalog)



Cheers,

Cliff



viperdoc wrote:



[quote]



That is a GREAT IDEA that I had not thought of! Not that I have any corner

on bright ideas. I don't! Especially since I ops tested the yes you can

reassemble the fuel pump backwards!

Thanks.

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: Fuel pump failure

With a little thought and some minor tubing changes said pump could be

used to replace the complete primer ... Period.  



The replacement would just have a toggle selector valve (system or

prime) and an electric switch having "momentary/off/on contacts". This

would duplicate the exact design used with the BIG radials, and would

also act as the backup fuel pump. 



Better yet.... Include an electric selector valve in the design.  When

you push the electric switch to the spring loaded off "momentary"

position, it primes.  Switch it to the "ON" side and it provides system

pressure and thus a backup fuel pump.   



Of course, with a total loss of electric power, the engine would then be

very hard to start.  But then, how many people really need to start with

a 100% total loss of electrical power?  A few I guess.  



Interesting idea.  



Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK

   



--

cliff(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:42 pm Post subject: Fuel pump failure

After giving the matter a couple minutes of thought...

You could tee a Facet 40194 pump into the supply of the hand primer.

 From the pump a line is plumbed to a Parker Skinner 71335SN2KNJ1 

three-way solenoid valve.



Each outlet of the three way valve would be tee'd into the respective 

priming line (system or cylinder).



This should be a parallel but independent system requiring no extra 

check valves. (leaves the manual system operable)



Power would be supplied by a cole hersee 55094 or Philmore Datak 30-340 

Progressive Toggle Switch (OFF-ON-MOM ON).

and wired such that in the regular "on" position the pump would 

pressurize the carburetor. 



The "momentary on" position would energize the solenoid valve to divert 

the fuel to the intake manifold.



This would be a fun project.  Parts would be about $200.



Cheers,

Cliff



Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote]



With a little thought and some minor tubing changes said pump could be

used to replace the complete primer ... Period.  



The replacement would just have a toggle selector valve (system or

prime) and an electric switch having "momentary/off/on contacts". This

would duplicate the exact design used with the BIG radials, and would

also act as the backup fuel pump. 



Better yet.... Include an electric selector valve in the design.  When

you push the electric switch to the spring loaded off "momentary"

position, it primes.  Switch it to the "ON" side and it provides system

pressure and thus a backup fuel pump.   



Of course, with a total loss of electric power, the engine would then be

very hard to start.  But then, how many people really need to start with

a 100% total loss of electrical power?  A few I guess.  



Interesting idea.  



Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK

   



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: Fuel pump failure

Cliff!  Would you make us a KIT?  



Mark

  



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:12 pm Post subject: Fuel pump failure

On Oct 15, 2007, at 3:21 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 Cliff!  Would you make us a KIT?  


	


I was already planning to replace the wobble pump and primer in my  

CJ6A with an electric pump anyway. If there was a kit at something  

not to far from the retail parts prices, I would probably pop for one  

too.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

cliff(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: Fuel pump failure

Sure....how about July 2008?  <grin>

Seriously, without an airplane in the hangar to do the first one, it'd 

be silly of me to come up with complete system sitting at my computer.



After the three main components- the pump, the solenoid valve, and the 

switch, it's all hose, tube, and fittings.

I'd Tee into manifold primer hose as it comes out of the firewall.

I'd use oil dilution hose for the system prime.

For safety issues and for ease of installation, I'd tee into the primer 

feed line inside the cockpit and run it through the firewall to the 

pump- mounted on the firewall with the solenoid valve.



Again this is all seat at the desk.....



Cheers,

Cliff



Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E wrote:



[quote]



Cliff!  Would you make us a KIT?  



Mark

  



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: Fuel pump failure

Yes, but it is EXPERIENCED "seat at the desk" advice, thus worth a lot!

Thanks Cliff!  



By the way, good thought on the oil dilution switch.  Many people have

also used that switch for the after market oil scavaging pump idea.

Personally, I use it for an "emergency electrical switch".  I would not

recommend it for others, but I ran a wire right to the "Combined Device"

relay so I can over-ride all the internal systems and close the main

contactor relay by hand if I so choose.  Thus if I lose all electrical

power, and it is something wrong with current sensing, over-voltage,

under-voltage, you name it... I can close that relay for a split second

while watching the voltage and current gages and if all looks well, I

can hold it up manually and charge the battery in an emergency.  



Actually I wired this up after having one of the internal relays in the

combined device fail in flight leaving me with an operable generator,

but no way to use it.  I used that switch to over-ride the internal

systems and connect the generator to the main bus manually.  Of course

the engine had to be at speed, and I had to carefully monitor voltage

and current, but it allowed me to get the airplane home.  I just ended

leaving the wire to do it in place.     



Mark



--

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